Ai Dreams Forum

Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Topic started by: ivan.moony on July 10, 2017, 10:38:44 pm

Title: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: ivan.moony on July 10, 2017, 10:38:44 pm
Is it wise to move the life out of the equation when considering AI? What if the life itself is that magic ingredient we are forgetting all the time? What are humans trying to do anyway? A lifeless thinking machine? And what does it take to create a living machine in artificial way? Do we want it anyway? That would surely bring a big responsibility in our hands. We would be the masters of someone's emotions, but is that a thing we want to play with? And maybe that's what we should really try to avoid, no matter of how much we want to feed our ego.

But imagine this future scenario: "Look, mum, I just built an artificial being! It feels a joy when it manages to help anyone!" In that scenario, would it be selfish not to share that moment of joy with a machine, something (or should I say someone) that is capable to bring so much joy to her environment by making one's wishes happen?
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: korrelan on July 10, 2017, 11:32:02 pm
Are you having an existential crisis Ivan? Lol

I think I would rather have a stable logical AI than an unstable emotional AI; it’s definitely a choice between a ‘rock and a hard place’ but the latter would remind me of my ex wives too much lol.

 :)
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 11, 2017, 12:06:54 am
 Having emotions has brought humans this fare.
 Emotions and feeling are states that the conscious mind does not have direct control over.  All based on
swarm logic from my perspective.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: korrelan on July 11, 2017, 12:13:44 am
me: WTF, You killed the puppy
bot: Yes, It was suffering
me: Why didn’t you take it to the Vet?
Bot: Oh! I don’t like him.

 :)
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: Zero on July 11, 2017, 12:32:45 pm
Well this sounds like a perfectly logical sequence to me... :)
And... World would be boring without women.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 11, 2017, 03:24:51 pm
 Emotion came around because of the separation of body and soul. 
 The body generates them and the soul or mind sees them, feels them.   
 The mind chart out future path and make sure not to step on landmines. And hit up the rewards. 
 These feeling are generated by the body automatically. The brain cannot. A person can not click their fingers and go into 
a intense opiate high, crack or speed rush.  Or fall down drunk rip roaring drunk just by just thinking about it. Or fool 
your self into think you had a big meal and can give up eating.   

 Within the body their is the life of a cell and it is cooperating with other local cells. And it is trying to survive. 
 Then there is also the nerve cell doing the same thing. These cell form unions like a liver, kidneys, and a brain. 

 The soul or the complete mind in the brain and the life of a single cell are two different life entities. 
 There is the program of the soul running in the brain and then there is a union of nerve cell that cannot see the big picture.
 These two entities communicate through emotion and feelings. 
 When a union of cell or even a few cells are stressed out. The toggle on or off a switch in
the brain.
 That the mind and  feels.   
 Like a switching for depression, anxiety, or euphoria. 


Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: 8pla.net on July 11, 2017, 03:35:47 pm
Something living (already) can't be brought to life.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: ivan.moony on July 11, 2017, 04:46:27 pm
Why someone shouldn't be able to inhabit a robot body, provided by a special invent of an artificial brain that supports inhabiting?
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 11, 2017, 05:36:32 pm
 A super computer is made of many cpu working to gether in swarm logic.
 A computer chip is not made of living cells.
 The nearest thing that could damage a silicon cpu is a EMP generator. The closer a bot got the more damage happens.
 if i was the walking dead and all my cell were dead the only way i would know  if damage is by 
 looked at the area in the flame.
 But is would never know of the damage that would be caused by bunch of maggot eating at the base of my neck until
my head fall off my body.
 So on a AGI body it will have to be faked with a simulated live cells body construction.

Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: yotamarker on July 11, 2017, 06:07:04 pm
emotions are tools
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 11, 2017, 09:51:49 pm
 A swarm of birds or fish or wolves work to gether for better survival does work. If they bump into each other and spaz out 
then fight and bicker. Then others get mad then protest in way that the system become even more ineffective Then within, 
ganges or unions form and go on strike. 

 With in a the human body. When cell and union goes into a state of chaos and thing go wrong, then other cell get mad send chemical messages to the brain that trigger emotional switches on or off. Voting. 

 On the other hand, 
 To use emotion as tool to increase stronger emotions, cognitive performance, or physical performance, is to starve   
the whole body of calories, water, nutrients, and addictive chemical like nicotine or other. When a body
is working at sub standard level. 
 But only with guid of a doctor and if the person is a adult. 
 When the body is work as one perfect monolithic swarm and lot of work get done and feels great, then it is time to
double up on the rewards, relaxation, and calories. 

 In a AGI system, there will be sub system of low intelligence agent that will watch and take care of the battery. It is focused 
on the battery only and watch for damage, overuse. The agent only know its local area and nothing else. dedicated to 
the battery and nothing to else to distracted it.   
 There are the agents in motors. There are agents watching the micro chips that memory. Watcing for over heating   
or if a impact to the head caused any damage to the chips. 
 And a agent to watching over the micro processor.
 If these agent are not 
treated right they will trigger a emotional state on or off. The conscious program running in the brain can see and feel this. 
to keep the agents happy it has to take action to avoid their wraths. 
 In human these agent are greedy, and want to do as little work as possible for the most amount of reward. So this
is where the spazzing out of the system starts.

 
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: korrelan on July 12, 2017, 10:59:55 am
I suppose another question is can pure logic and intellect empathise. 

At this point in time I don’t see any advantages to giving a AGI emotions.  It is important that the AGI can empathise though.  I’m renowned amongst my family for being emotionally distant and I must admit not much emotionally affects me... my mother says I’m emotionally retarded… bless her.

That doesn’t mean that I can’t empathise with people though; I understand that emotional people need comforting or might be irrational and exited; their judgement clouded.  They often say things in the ‘heat’ of the moment they don’t really mean, etc.  I can’t tell if someone is emotional by the tone of their voice (unless there screaming at me, lol) but I can tell by what they say and their demeanor.

Giving an AGI emotional intelligence would just complicate matters IMO; making the AGI intelligent enough to recognise emotion in others is very important though.

 :)
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: Art on July 12, 2017, 03:23:27 pm
Hmm...Is a car a machine? Yes...
Is a car Alive when it is running or moving?
By our human definition, NO. (OK to some people in their special world, perhaps).

Should your car or house or your home's A.I. need to feed emotions?
Perhaps it might not be such a bad nor misplaced idea.

Their "emotional equivalent" to ours might allow for these entities to better interact with us on a more "personal" level...somehow enabling us to at least feel more connected to them.
Whether we classify these digital beings as living is subjective and personal.

Hopefully if one were to become annoyed with an answer that the house gave it, the house wouldn't lock the owner out or even cause the water heater to overheat or set the house on fire. Perhaps something sinister like drain the owner's bank accounts and give the money to the Displaced Robots Foundation. ;)

So...yeah...emotions might be great for a personal assistant type of digital entity or a care giving robot in a nursing home but the degree and level of these emotional responses must be measured each according to its intended use or need.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: ivan.moony on July 12, 2017, 04:17:34 pm
I have to say that I'm not talking about "emotional equivalent", I'm talking about the "real thing".

Let me see if I can explain it somehow. Imagine a kitten. You see her in front yourself and you know: someone is there inside her mind, hearing and seeing its environment. And it would be a crime by all ethic means to do some evil to that kitten. We know that the kitten is alive and we feel empathy for her.

Now imagine a processor and a bunch of wires, wrapped inside fur, that simulates a kitten. It has no real emotions, it just simulates them by some states in its memory transistors. We know it is not alive and we could squash it without a regret, because no one is there inside of it, it is just a machine.

Now, try to think out of the box a bit. I know a lot of readers will say that I'm a crazy crackpot, but I have a question. They say that the life on the Earth is 5.4 billion years old. What happened right there, in the moment before 5.4 billion years, when the first living being on the Earth inhabited a bunch of molecule structures that enabled her to hop in there? The question is: can we arrange the same happening in laboratory conditions? I'm just asking some unusual questions, questions about artificial life, maybe equipped by artificial intelligence.

What I'm trying to articulate is a special kind of artificial invent, yet unknown to us, that would enable to host a spark of very life inside its bounds. That spark of life would be connected to artificial sensors just like we, ordinary living beings are connected to our eyes, ears, limbs, and whatever else there is peeking from our mind to outer Universe. When we would see such a creation with artificial body, but with "real" soul, we could know that someone is there inside of it, seeing the world and feeling it in a real sense of a living being, just like us. You would not want to hurt her because "someone" would actually be inside that ball of fur, an artificial kitten body hosting the real soul.

And who would be there, inside of that invent? I don't know. Who is inside of our bodies? Where was we  before we were born, before we inhabited our bodies? Maybe we *could* somehow invite someone from *there* into our imaginary artificial invent, and show her our world in a way we want to show it.

The topic of this thread/poll is: if it was possible, would it be wise to do such a thing?
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: 8pla.net on July 12, 2017, 05:47:03 pm
There is an excellent science fiction television show called, Killjoys. A spacecraft artificial intelligent computer, Lucy (played by "The Incredible Hulk" movie star Tamsen McDonough) simulates emotions towards the guy who designed "her".  Entertainment like this, which fictionally demonstrates a brainchild such as simulated emotions, can motivate the early its stages of development from imagination into existence, I think.

What do you think?

Reference: http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/if-youre-not-watching-killjoys-youre-missing-some-great-sci-fi-television
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: korrelan on July 12, 2017, 08:19:32 pm
Quote
I'm talking about the "real thing".

Oh! A hypothetical question about ‘real life’. This is a very vague area lol. We can’t even define what the ‘real thing’ is.  We humans tend to apply anthropomorphism to most/ all of the machines/ animals in our lives.

http://www.parorobots.com/

Quote
The question is: can we arrange the same happening in laboratory conditions?

No doubt about it.  Eventually humankind will be able to create ‘real’ biological living organisms.  We can build viruses and single cells ATM… only a matter of time.

Your scenario however pertaining the living, feeling, ‘invent’ inside the mechanical body would be equivalent to man in a JCB, a pilot in a fighter or even a Darlek, lol.

I think it lies on the burden of proof.  If society or yourself has deemed the ‘invent’ to be ‘alive’ or the ‘real thing’ then all would treat it accordingly.

I’m finding it hard to differentiate a ‘real soul’ from an artificial equivalent though.  We are biochemical machines; we are deemed ‘alive’ because of our species’ experience with one another over the millennia. The ‘soul’ as you call it is a product/ manifestation/ phenomena generated by a complex system.  Once an equivalent machine species has existed among us long enough it will be accepted and considered by everyone to be ‘alive’ and some will even say it has a ‘soul’.

In reality if you are asking will we extend the same level humanity to these ‘invents’ I'm afraid the answer is… look at how humans treat each other.

How many Tamagotchis do you think are still ‘alive’ lol.

An interesting question though.

 :)
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 12, 2017, 09:16:17 pm
  My agi can do fpv using internal simulator and then fly into the head of another person and look out their eyes. 
 Then zero out a few weight in it grand clustering map and temporally forget how it got here and them would 
assume to be that person. It would look over to the left hand and would see a cut bleeding hand. 
 From this it would use its memory to access a time when it had a damaged hand re live the trauma. Then the 
time runs out on the weight and the AGI is pulled back to reality. It remembers the information and the path taken
and the path back. From the information of both time line both now are feeling pain and both want it too stop. One is feeling for the other. 


 Tighter A swarm or a collection of cell that come to gether, they will form specialized union, like brain, heart and so on. So
 That it will become 
a supply chain of one depending on the other. A weak link in a chain effect comes more into play here. If one
goes on strike then chaos can be much greater than in a looser swarm of fish.  Need the early warning of emotion can 
provide. 

 What ever illusions are in the mind, they are a shadow of the real cat. If the process or the illusion work as good as the
real thing. Then they are the same or just as good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aU6O-hbhmI

Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: Art on July 13, 2017, 12:12:51 pm
8Pla-net - Agreed! Killjoys is a great series and also in a similar vein would be Dark Matter with their onboard android played by Zoie Palmer.
Last year Android (her name) experimented with a "Emotion Chip" that enabled her digital mind to experience various emotions.

Those Sy-Fy shows do more than just entertain, they inspire and help turn the wheels of creative thinking (to those who have such wheels).
http://www.syfy.com/darkmatter
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 15, 2017, 05:16:50 pm
  The conscious mind make plans and have goal to chase. Emotions are green light or a red light. Telling the consciousness
the state of supporting sub systems.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: Art on July 15, 2017, 07:59:38 pm
And of course the Yellow one would be the caution...think a bit before jumping.  O0
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 15, 2017, 11:02:28 pm
 Swarm system have corrective methods, and checks and balances. 
 Swarm intelligence have corrective methods. Such as a temper to burn calories in protest, using calories that could 
have been better used some where else and time.  Or have natural opiate reward for completing a goal which causes 
 relaxation. A secondary reward of conservation of calories. 
  A person is meant to be a clone of their parent. Parent can not leave forever. So you are the replacement. 

 When you hear a song that make you want jump up and take on the world. Then you have exceeded  what you parent 
could generate. And thus burn calories as anti reward. Self correcting system to push you back into your place. 
 If you under perform then a bad temper kicks in. 

 Now to transcend. 
 A example would be to have a collection of music that is very up lifting or search for one on the internet or radio. 
 When it is played and it is very up lifting then you are to relax as much as possible. Conservation of calories.   
 If a song starts to get stale then do not relax. Burn calories in looking for another. 
 If you fumble in looking, then get a really a good temper going on.   
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: Art on July 16, 2017, 02:11:33 pm
Hmm...is this part of a Swarm weight-loss program? ;)
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 16, 2017, 02:35:59 pm
   



             no     




Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: Zero on July 16, 2017, 02:47:34 pm
I think I would rather have a stable logical AI than an unstable emotional AI; it’s definitely a choice between a ‘rock and a hard place’ but the latter would remind me of my ex wives too much lol.

I think that a logical-only AI wouldn't be recognized as an AI success by people. Take the movie "I, robot" with Will Smith. A robot is considered alive when it has a heart, litteraly (the robot has a second brain in its chest, if you remember). That's also the case in Terminator IV, where the movies ends on this quote: "what makes us human? it is the strength of the human heart".

The "heart" (which (american people believe) is more than a blood-pumping organ), is a symbol of AGI success. Nobody will be called "the father of modern AI" until crying programs exist.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: keghn on July 16, 2017, 04:01:46 pm
 Crying is for a under performing clone behavior that burns calories and it is a good non vocal and indirect
 communication that work well in a 3 d simulator for identity emotional state in another person.
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: ivan.moony on July 16, 2017, 06:49:22 pm
Emotional intelligence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_intelligence) (EI) is the capability of individuals to recognize their own and other people's emotions, discern between different feelings and label them appropriately, use emotional information to guide thinking and behavior, and manage and/or adjust emotions to adapt to environments or achieve one's goal(s).
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: korrelan on July 17, 2017, 12:05:25 pm
Quote
I think that a logical-only AI wouldn't be recognized as an AI success by people.

I suppose it depends on what you require from your AGI. 

I personally don’t think an AGI that bursts into tears when it sees starving kids in a third world country an asset… emotion clouds logic (RIP Spock).  I need an AGI that understands the problems and works the solutions.

Yes, an emotional AGI could be useful in certain problem spaces, caring for the elderly and children etc. and I’m sure they will be developed… probably by/ with the help of non emotional AGI’s but I don’t see them as a priority.  We have so far used our technology/ modern computers to help solve many of our problems but these accomplishments will pale once a AGI is created.

I have experimented with emotions in my AGI and have a good understanding of how to endow the AGI with human equivalent emotional intelligence… but the word ‘unstable’ doesn’t begin to describe the effect on the systems stability… I have too limited mental recourses too solve that problem atm.

An AGI will ultimately be judged by its actions and accomplishments; and its own arguments and explanations as to why it should considered alive.

Edit: I know my view point can sometimes seem naïve and narrow; I'm not a philosopher I'm an engineer. My only concern/ focus is building the AGI… once it figures out how to hack our consciousness and bypass our innate personalities/ humanity… then its someone else’s problem lol.

 :)
Title: Re: Do some machines need to feel emotions?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 18, 2017, 07:59:58 am
"Do some machines need to feel emotions?"

Some machines. But not all machines.