Ai Dreams Forum

AI Dreams => General Chat => Topic started by: Art on November 07, 2017, 09:53:27 pm

Title: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 07, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
I came across this question yesterday and gave it quite a bit of thought so now it's your turn.

What defines a Human? Standing & walking upright? (what about no legs then)?
Speech? Hearing? Touch? Smell? Taste? (there are many people who are unable to perform some or many of these tasks.
So arms are out as well.

Fast forward a few years (decade +- perhaps)...
If a person was in a horrible accident and left without a face or skull and his or her brain was still alive, functioning and kept in a laboratory vessel, would it still be Human?

How do we measure what a Human is rather than what makes us human?

What if the person's brain could still communicate with others via speech synthesis and audio input or brain to image transfer?

Is that person still Human? or a Human?

*(With apologies to my friend, Mav). O0

Also no intended poke at the heads in Jars from TV's Futurama.


Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: keghn on November 07, 2017, 10:15:40 pm
 There are people who want be more than human. To be able to take on a new form. That time may be twenty years away?
 When that day come people may take on extra risk because insurance will pay for new parts that are better the real ones.
 Or solders will want to get injured, or a generals will put more harms way of his solders because he want the best.
  In the future, people will live a normal life and when the reach old age they will replace all of parts with synthetic super
human parts and live out life protecting the human race. But his could be accelerated by getting hurt in a accident.

Old human cells rejuvenated in breakthrough discovery on ageing: 

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2017-11-human-cells-rejuvenated-breakthrough-discovery.html 





Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Maviarab on November 08, 2017, 03:27:07 pm
Hmm Art?  Apologies?  What did I miss lol....

As for the question, it would be our consciousness and emotions that make us human.  Those two things do make us quite unique.  Sure other creatures have both to some varying degree (birds protecting their nest/young etc.....or crocodiles etc)...but is to the same extent as ours?  Or is just nature?

I give my explanation as you said what if a brain was a in a jar but could still communicate?  Well, said organ would still have it's own consciousness and emotions.  The body is irrelevant.  My brief 5 minute take on it anyway.

But seriously...what did I miss? lmao...what are you apologising for?
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 08, 2017, 08:05:44 pm
Mav...I sort of thought it would be obvious but does the name "Suki" ring a bell?

Also, old friend, check your site messages when you have a moment. Thanks!

- Art -
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Maviarab on November 08, 2017, 11:45:14 pm
Ahh...she did cross my mind yes....but didn't really get the connection.  and no apology needed :)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 13, 2017, 01:09:12 pm

If a person was in a horrible accident and left without a face or skull and his or her brain was still alive, functioning and kept in a laboratory vessel, would it still be Human?



Many questions in this post ! But to answer the one above : if a person had such accident with such consequences yes this person would be still human . Why ? Because of his previous interactions (before accident) with other humans. The other humans would still interact with him the same way. If this person had no previous social existence (therefore no interactions with other humans) then this person would use artificial actuators to convince (if he wishes to convince of course) new people that he is human too. How ? May be by refering to verifiable events occurred in his life previously to accident (a marriage, the place where his family is from, or just a simple ID card !).
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: keghn on November 14, 2017, 01:54:08 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsCg7Ds9-u0
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Zero on November 14, 2017, 02:44:45 pm
What defines Human?

"Human" is just a word. Words are blurry. If you can ask a perfectly precise question, you'll have an answer. Don't try to answer the question, that's impossible. Instead, just try to ask it.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: ivan.moony on November 14, 2017, 04:32:52 pm
Ability to have a choice of being either good or mean.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: keghn on November 14, 2017, 06:19:22 pm

Founding An Inbreeding-Free Space Colony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5HORANmzHw

Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 15, 2017, 01:38:26 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsCg7Ds9-u0
I knew I'd heard that song before...

It was the TV Series Theme song for those charming three witches in, "Charmed".

Nice! O0
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: 8pla.net on November 15, 2017, 07:41:36 pm
Latin defines Human (as Homo).
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: infurl on November 15, 2017, 10:00:51 pm
There is only one characteristic that sets humans apart from all other animals. We cook our food. This means that we use a much smaller proportion of our available energy digesting our food. We are able to expend more than a third of our available energy thinking whereas other animals, no matter how intelligent, can afford to spend less than 10 percent of their available energy thinking. Everything else follows from that one difference.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 16, 2017, 12:26:34 am
There is only one characteristic that sets humans apart from all other animals. We cook our food. This means that we use a much smaller proportion of our available energy digesting our food. We are able to expend more than a third of our available energy thinking whereas other animals, no matter how intelligent, can afford to spend less than 10 percent of their available energy thinking. Everything else follows from that one difference.

No the very first difference is "secondary tools".
Monkeys and humans can use a rock as a tool. This tool is called "primary tool". But humans were the only "animals" to use a rock to make another better rock. This tool is a "secondary tool".
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: infurl on November 16, 2017, 12:42:34 am
No the very first difference is "secondary tools".
Monkeys and humans can use a rock as a tool. This tool is called "primary tool". But humans were the only "animals" to use a rock to make another better rock. This tool is a "secondary tool".

The distinction is animals that only know how to use tools that they find, versus animals that know how to make tools. There are many kinds of animals (and birds) that can make tools, so you are wrong.

Do some research and you will find that of all animals, chimpanzees are the only animals other than humans that have a natural understanding of fire, but they don't know how to use it. Human beings alone are capable of harnessing external sources of energy as an aid to living.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 16, 2017, 12:57:05 am
No the very first difference is "secondary tools".
Monkeys and humans can use a rock as a tool. This tool is called "primary tool". But humans were the only "animals" to use a rock to make another better rock. This tool is a "secondary tool".

The distinction is animals that only know how to use tools that they find, versus animals that know how to make tools. There are many kinds of animals (and birds) that can make tools, so you are wrong.

Do some research and you will find that of all animals, chimpanzees are the only animals other than humans that have a natural understanding of fire, but they don't know how to use it. Human beings alone are capable of harnessing external sources of energy as an aid to living.
No I said humans can create "secondary tools"... meaning a tool made with another tool in order to get a better final tool. Exemple : chopping a rock with another rock to get a blade. If you know  animals able to do that please tell me
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: korrelan on November 16, 2017, 01:13:00 am
Hmmm... Wouldn't this crow using the edge of the container to bend a wire be secondary tool use?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UDg0AKfM8EY

 :)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: infurl on November 16, 2017, 01:15:46 am
No I said humans can create "secondary tools"... meaning a tool made with another tool in order to get a better final tool. Exemple : chopping a rock with another rock to get a blade. If you know  animals able to do that please tell me

What, you want me to "Google" it for you now? You do know how to use tools don't you?
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: WriterOfMinds on November 16, 2017, 01:57:22 am
No I said humans can create "secondary tools"... meaning a tool made with another tool in order to get a better final tool. Exemple : chopping a rock with another rock to get a blade. If you know  animals able to do that please tell me

What, you want me to "Google" it for you now? You do know how to use tools don't you?


Looks to me like Thierry politely invited you to correct his ignorance IF you had additional information that he was unaware of.  No, he's not asking you to do his research for him.  You didn't read his first post carefully, and now you're sassing him for no good reason.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: ivan.moony on November 16, 2017, 08:31:55 am
Yes, Thierry is just trying to have a friendly conversation.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 16, 2017, 01:55:07 pm
Hmmm... Wouldn't this crow using the edge of the container to bend a wire be secondary tool use?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UDg0AKfM8EY

 :)

Well I expected those black crows coming to my skies  ;D

Yes that crow is making the hook thanks to the container shape. The hook is indeed a tool.
But the container has not been "made" by the crow for this purpose. The bird only used its environment as a tool to modify a primary tool. Is this bird (or another animal) able to "conceive" a tool in order to "conceive" another tool ? May be it is to check on monkeys side...
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: korrelan on November 16, 2017, 08:13:05 pm
One could argue the fact that it is using its environment in such a manner requires just as much intelligence as making a specific tool. There are millions of ways the crow could have applied the wire to the box, it seemed to know exactly what to do.

This of course raises quite a few other questions. How did the crow know the correct angle to bend the wire?  How did it know the length of the bent piece would fit inside the tube?  How did it know the wire was malleable and wouldn’t snap like a twig, etc?

 :)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 17, 2017, 04:01:48 am
All seem valid points with the exception of the chimp/gorilla family, we have an opposable thumb which enables us to grip and grasp things such as sticks, spears, various handles and shapes. (the chimp using that animal bone as a club on 2001: A Space Odyssey)...

The marked ability to think (thoughts, love, feelings, situations, ponderables), reason (more logic, rationale, decision making, processing), develop language, and use fire pretty much sums it up for me. Walking upright and not dragging our knuckles (well for most of us), is not always definitive but is a good start. ;)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 17, 2017, 10:47:03 pm
One could argue the fact that it is using its environment in such a manner requires just as much intelligence as making a specific tool. There are millions of ways the crow could have applied the wire to the box, it seemed to know exactly what to do.

This of course raises quite a few other questions. How did the crow know the correct angle to bend the wire?  How did it know the length of the bent piece would fit inside the tube?  How did it know the wire was malleable and wouldn’t snap like a twig, etc?

 :)

Actually all your questions make sense.
My point of view : May be because the scientist behind this study is not objective. He/she wants the bird's success in order to "show" success. Parameters were made to succeed. Choice of each element coming from an environment that the bird already knows (why not trying with a strange food, a strange stick, a non transparent tube, etc...) 
This experiment looks like an emulation rather than experiment.

Crows like any other species considered as intelligent  (monkeys, dolphins...) have something in common. They live in societies or groups and imitate each other's techniques when a benefit is encountered by one of them. Those techniques are usually found by experimenting (in the sense of trying in order to succeed)

They use imitation as a learning process.

Therefore, I am more and more sure that this crow in the video is just executing an imitation process (or more than one) with specific steps that cannot be anything else than that.   

So the hook, the tube (I guess a branch of a tree in the nature), are may be learnt since the crow was just a little crow.

What I find really interesting is that they seem to separate their global imitation skills into sub imitation skills so that they can adapt to any skind of situation. As if they compose an imitation scenario for each a new situation...

Inspiring ! ::)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 18, 2017, 01:37:26 pm
Therefore, it might be just as safe to say that Human learning is mostly done through imitation.
Children learn by imitating their adults or other children who already know or possess certain skills or abilities.

We often say that animals do some things instinctively but then again, so do we.

Humans learn by imitating experiments, imitating ideas or passages from books they've read, etc.

The most sincere form of flattery...Imitation.  O0
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: korrelan on November 18, 2017, 01:47:07 pm
Therefore, it might be just as safe to say that Human learning is mostly done through imitation.
Children learn by imitating their adults or other children who already know or possess certain skills or abilities.

We often say that animals do some things instinctively but then again, so do we.

Humans learn by imitating experiments, imitating ideas or passages from books they've read, etc.

The most sincere form of flattery...Imitation.  O0

 :)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: ivan.moony on November 18, 2017, 04:16:44 pm
How hard would it be to train neural net to imitate seen behavior when detecting behavior pattern?

[edit] By behavior I mean complex human behavior we all experience every day.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: infurl on November 18, 2017, 07:27:26 pm
Therefore, it might be just as safe to say that Human learning is mostly done through imitation.
Children learn by imitating their adults or other children who already know or possess certain skills or abilities.

There are four different ways in which humans learn with imitation being only one of those methods. Not everyone learns the same way. We all learn best using different combinations of these methods. You can ask any qualified teacher for confirmation of this.

1. learning by experiment and action
2. learning by having it explained to you
3. learning by having it demonstrated to you
4. learning by reading about it.

Of course there are other ways of breaking it down too but hopefully you get the general idea.

https://www.learning-styles-online.com/overview/

Animals also employ all these learning methods, though to what extent may depend on their language ability which in most cases is still somewhat underestimated by anthropocentric humans.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Don Patrick on November 19, 2017, 02:53:52 pm
As this is a philosophical question, I will wax philosophically as an answer.
On a table are four items: A red ball, a blue cube, a striped ball, and a red cube with stripes. What defines the latter?
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 19, 2017, 10:55:02 pm
As this is a philosophical question, I will wax philosophically as an answer.
On a table are four items: A red ball, a blue cube, a striped ball, and a red cube with stripes. What defines the latter?

Do you mean what defines the latter among the 3 previous items ?
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 20, 2017, 03:58:22 pm
You mean: Shape, Color, Pattern? (no mention of size).
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: unreality on November 20, 2017, 04:30:08 pm
It depends how detailed of a definition you want, but if that title had to be just two words it would be emotions & ego. The human ego is the largest object in the known universe. Here's an emotion for you,  :wonky:
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Don Patrick on November 21, 2017, 08:13:19 am
As this is a philosophical question, I will wax philosophically as an answer.
On a table are four items: A red ball, a blue cube, a striped ball, and a red cube with stripes. What defines the latter?

Do you mean what defines the latter among the 3 previous items ?
Yes. The items are an analogy for humans and other animals. What distinguishes the one from the other? What makes it unique?
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Thierry on November 21, 2017, 04:20:24 pm
As this is a philosophical question, I will wax philosophically as an answer.
On a table are four items: A red ball, a blue cube, a striped ball, and a red cube with stripes. What defines the latter?

Do you mean what defines the latter among the 3 previous items ?
Yes. The items are an analogy for humans and other animals. What distinguishes the one from the other? What makes it unique?

I just notice now that an inference is missing in your statement : "a red cube with stripes". The color of stripes is not indicated. I guess this should be " a red cube with BLUE stripes " ?
Has this been voluntarily omitted ?
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: korrelan on November 21, 2017, 04:54:28 pm
I don't get it?

The last one is the only one with both a specified colour and pattern?
The last one was the last item mentioned?
The last one was probably the last one you typed?
The last one has the longest description (number of letters/ words)?
The last one took more mental resources to consider, to make it different?
The last one is the rightmost on a standard formatted screen layout?
The last one is the forth where none of the others are?

Or is it that shape/ colour doesn't matter?

 :)

I presume you read the post title correctly? What defines Human... not what defines 'a' human amongst others.

 :)
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Art on November 22, 2017, 02:33:03 am
What about compassion? I've seen all sorts of animals exhibit this type of behavior and not just for their own type.
A chimp feeling compassion for a kitten or a gorilla for a fallen human child, etc. While clearly compassion isn't a human owned behavior, the lack of is always met with strong criticism for not being human or having feelings. With compassion usually comes Understanding.

Perhaps 'human', is knowing what elicits compassion and how to deal with or act upon experiencing it, maybe toward a homeless person, a wounded soldier, a child who has lost his / her parents in an accident, a person with dementia who's losing a lifetime of memories, shedding a tear for someone you don't even know, caring for your fellow human being as if he/she were family. We all are.

Just some thoughts....
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: Don Patrick on November 22, 2017, 11:36:14 am
The discussion so far seemed to focus on what distinguishes a human from other animals, so that was my context.
I'll get to the answer: In my analogy there is NO single trait that makes the last item unique. Only the combination of having all three traits is what distinguishes it from the others and makes it unique.

We have legs, some animals have legs. We can reason, some animals can reason. We can make tools, some animals can make tools. I  do not think that any trait we have is uniquely human. However, an entity that shares a majority of traits with the average human, give or take the loss of a limb or some mental faculty, is human. In my opinion the line is not drawn at any specific trait but at a percentage of traits.

Of course, some human traits are less common in the animal kingdom than others, so I don't mind people trying to figure out which are the most rare traits.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: 8pla.net on November 23, 2017, 03:08:38 am
It is not possible to cook underwater.
How about dolphins, in terms of intelligence?
Interesting post, though... (Just analyzing it).
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: korrelan on November 23, 2017, 10:28:03 am
@Don
Quote
In my analogy there is NO single trait that makes the last item unique. Only the combination of having all three traits is what distinguishes it from the others and makes it unique.

Erm... isn't that a contradiction? lol.

@8pla

Quote
It is not possible to cook underwater.

Try telling that too a shrimp that lives on a hydrothermal vent lol.

 ;D
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: 8pla.net on November 23, 2017, 01:09:26 pm
"There is only one characteristic that sets humans apart from all other animals. We cook our food. This means that we use a much smaller proportion of our available energy digesting our food. We are able to expend more than a third of our available energy thinking whereas other animals, no matter how intelligent, can afford to spend less than 10 percent of their available energy thinking. Everything else follows from that one difference.", infurl commented last week. 

To this, I replied that i found the theory interesting, which I still do. Just to clarify, my comment about dolphins not cooking underwater was not intended to debunk infurl's theory... But, simply to analyze it... An attempt to break it down a little further.

Perhaps all the advanced animal kingdom abilities of dolphins, crows and primates are possible by spending less than 10%. In theory, then what does that suggest about simulating human behavior, language, tool making, etc., in A.I. such as a neural network?   

Some animals do, to at least some degree, possess these human-like abilities. Dolphins have language (and much more). Orangutans have human sign-language.  Crows, with their bird brains have tool making, and other amazing abilities. I think, the 10% theory would make these human-like abilities more doable to simulate in artificial intelligence, than perhaps if they required 30%.
Title: Re: What defines Human?
Post by: infurl on November 23, 2017, 07:25:32 pm
To this, I replied that i found the theory interesting, which I still do. Just to clarify, my comment about dolphins not cooking underwater was not intended to debunk infurl's theory... But, simply to analyze it... An attempt to break it down a little further.

It's not my theory. I don't waste anybody's time speculating about things that are outside my areas of expertise. I just read a lot so I just happen to know that human beings cooking their food is what differentiates us from all other animals, according to current research. There are plenty of articles about it accessible on the web. Here's one for you to read right now.

http://www.popsci.com.au/science/eating-cooked-food-made-us-human,378424

More generally, human beings control external sources of energy. No other animals do that.