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AI Dreams => Welcome to AI Dreams forum. => Forum Feedback => Topic started by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 07:17:56 am

Title: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 07:17:56 am
Hi Freddy,

It would be great to have 2 additional sub-forums. I'm suggesting this, not because some existing messages are not where they belong, but rather to expand the scope of AIDream.

The first one would be about Human Computer Interaction (HCI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human%E2%80%93computer_interaction)). An AI lives in a computer, hence it seems logical to have a place to discuss the means to interact with it. The other one is spirituality. I know... it's hot. But IMO there's a lot to learn from it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism). We're trying to reach human level (at least), and spirituality is clearly an important part of what makes mankind what it is, hence it seems logical not to shy away from this.

I just propose we give these 2 new areas a try. After a few months, if you think AIDream is better without them, well messages inside of them can easily be relocated, and these sub-forums deleted...

What do you think, Freddy? Guys?
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: infurl on November 25, 2017, 09:09:37 am
There isn't an existing sub-forum that's a perfect fit for human computer interaction but on the other hand it is covered generally by several of the existing sub-forums.

I would have said that spirituality is right off topic except that recent research suggests that it might actually be due to a side-effect of consciousness. In other words, spirituality and religion are due to a bug in our mental software. Anyway, here's the article should anyone wish to read it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/how-consciousness-evolved/485558/
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: korrelan on November 25, 2017, 10:50:36 am
I agree with Infurl.

Personal belief systems should be avoided.  The topic is already adding to the complexity of writing this reply, I'm having to be extra careful not to ‘offend’ anyone.

We are all members because we have a common understanding/ interest.  We ground our projects/ research/ discussions on commonly understood concepts.

‘Spirituality’ is a very personal phenomenon and gives no common ground for group discussion.  It also has a lot of unavoidable emotional ties that form my experience never results in a satisfactory outcome. 

Also… everything we write/ express on this forum effects how the other members portray us.  We build a mental picture of the person we are conversing with based on past conversations and this affects our opinion of that person, best to keep it on friendly/ professional level.

Life’s rules #42. Don’t try to fix what isn't broken.

Life’s rules #47. Never discuss politics or religion/ spirituality with a peer if you want to remain friends. Lol.

 :)
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 11:14:46 am
I knew the answer before asking the question. And I knew infurl would be the first saying "no".

I feel more and more I don't belong here, which means I belong nowhere on the web. Not only because of this rejected suggestion.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: korrelan on November 25, 2017, 12:36:19 pm
Quote
I knew the answer before asking the question.

Then you were just trying to elicit a negative response? 

Quote
And I knew infurl would be the first saying "no".

You are expressing your personal opinion about a member of the forum.  Now I don’t have the information or beliefs that you have behind your personal opinion, so I have to make my own judgement on what you are trying to express about Infurl.  My experience of Infurl is totally different to yours… shall we argue about who is right? 

Is your personal opinion about Inful relevant to the topics of this forum? It could also be construed as a personal attack.

If I went to a ‘spiritual’ forum and told them that what they believe to be a true fact is just a side-effect of their consciousness… all hell would break loose lol. 

Quote
I feel more and more I don't belong here, which means I belong nowhere on the web.

You are a valuable member of this forum, as is Infurl.

If you have some facet of your consciousness/ personality that needs to be expressed then find a suitable outlet/ forum and talk to like minded people.  This is an AI forum not a faith; accept it for what it is.

From my experience serious AI researchers are very rarely deeply spiritual, and for good reason… if you don’t believe AI is an engineering/ programming/ science problem then there is no point trying to achieve/ build it.

Don’t try to mix oil and water.

 :)
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: ivan.moony on November 25, 2017, 12:51:49 pm
I feel more and more I don't belong here, which means I belong nowhere on the web. Not only because of this rejected suggestion.

Don't be so dark mooded. We like that you are here, around.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 01:04:17 pm
About infurl, I didn't mean anything negative. I was just mentionning an intuition I've had when I posted the message. But you're right, this sentence is completely irrelevant, and since it could be misunderstood, I should not have written it. I think infurl is a valuable member of this forum, and his answer was ok.

About the topic, I wasn't trying to elicit a negative answer. I was just expressing a sincere desire, about expanding the forum scope (not fixing it).

When you say "talk to link-minded people", I feel bad. I may be wrong, but I believe that 90% members here:
- think singularity can happen
- see transhumanism as a good thing
- think AIs should be slaves
- consider spirituality is off-topic
...etc. So yeah, I'm wondering "am I like-minded", do I belong here?

I love this forum, I love members here... I'm ready to cry.

Thanks ivan.moony.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 01:08:53 pm
Let's close this topic and talk about something else.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: ivan.moony on November 25, 2017, 01:57:43 pm
I do my best, and I'm sorry if that is not enough for you  :-[

We should try to accept differences. Being different puts us in a special place where we have an opportunity to drift community in the way of our vision. But not everyone are ready to listen, and that shouldn't discourage us. Nature is a bitch, it is still a survival of the strongest, not the smartest, but knowing that, we could be that part of the nature that shines on among the mud, no matter how odd we are being called. If we loose our patience, that means we are giving up, which darkens the spot that shined because of us. We have a power to make this world a better place to live in. Let's use it without expecting that everything will vortex around us. Something surely will, and that should be just enough for us.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 02:05:38 pm
Thank you again ivan.moony, you make me feel better.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: korrelan on November 25, 2017, 02:18:25 pm
I'm sure Infurl understands lol.

In the interest of good relations I’ll let your derogatory comments slide on this occasion Ivan.

 ;D
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Art on November 25, 2017, 02:38:29 pm
With all due respect, this forum is about all things digital and AI, Robotic, Transhumanism (advancing the human condition through the use of advanced technologies), The Singularity, Machine learning, Chatbots, Science Fiction, etc.

Generally unless a Forum is specifically geared toward either Religion or Politics (and there are a vast assortment of them), it's best practice to avoid bringing those topics into the mix. That's not why we're here nor what we're about.

For spirituality, one might wish to explore Wiccan websites and holistic spiritualist, yoga, mind & body sites, etc. Religions of all flavors if that's your pick are plentiful. Google them or similar searches.

While your ideas are certainly understood, please understand that this is not the place to entertain them.

I do not speak for the entire staff and management of our forum but as a Mod and a fellow human being and as such, I do wish you well and extend good thoughts! O0
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: ivan.moony on November 25, 2017, 02:43:59 pm
I'm sure Infurl understands lol.

In the interest of good relations I’ll let your derogatory comments slide on this occasion Ivan.

 ;D

Korrelan! Not funny. The comment is meant to reflect the internal attitude than everyone of us could have, without picking any sides. I'm sorry if you recognized anyone at the opposite side. Don't tell me you didn't do anything good and bad in your life. We all did. It is a shine and a mud in our relations, not pointing to anyone specifically. When I'm in a melancholic mood, this is exactly what I'd like to hear, so I'm sorry for being honest for this occasion.

The guy asked us something. We stopped it. Should he call us a light in his life? And leave Infurl out of this, it is about all of us, including darn me.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 03:01:43 pm
Quote
With all due respect, this forum is about all things digital and AI, Robotic, Transhumanism (advancing the human condition through the use of advanced technologies), The Singularity, Machine learning, Chatbots, Science Fiction, etc.

Ooops.

I didn't notice this forum was also about transhumanism and the singularity.

My bad.

Please don't go flame war. You can't come in a well established community and ask them to change what the community orbits around.

I just didn't know. I thought it was AI only, and chatbots. Now I know it's a community of people who hope singularity and transhumanism. I don't belong here.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: korrelan on November 25, 2017, 03:13:26 pm
Haha… calm Ivan

The... ‘I’m sure Infurl understands’ was in regard to the earlier comments not my last one. As in I'm sure Infurl is wise enough to understand Zero's misgivings.

I understood you perfectly; I suppose my humour was misplaced and I must admit I have no idea what a melancholic mood feels like.

Anyway I’m just glad everyone is feeling rosy again.

Peace gentlemen  :)

@Zero

Edit. This forum covers a wide topic base, this just means the subjects are open for discussion... not that we all 'believe' in them.  Why not start a thread and find out what your fellow peers opinions are regarding the other topics.

 :)

There can be no light… without the dark.

 ;)
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Thierry on November 25, 2017, 04:02:01 pm
There isn't an existing sub-forum that's a perfect fit for human computer interaction but on the other hand it is covered generally by several of the existing sub-forums.

I would have said that spirituality is right off topic except that recent research suggests that it might actually be due to a side-effect of consciousness. In other words, spirituality and religion are due to a bug in our mental software. Anyway, here's the article should anyone wish to read it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/06/how-consciousness-evolved/485558/

"spirituality and religion are due to a bug in our mental software". Could be interesting to know if you would implement this "philosophical concept" into an AI.... (only billions of people are waiting for your answer)
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Freddy on November 25, 2017, 04:37:47 pm
I think the Human Computer Interaction idea is a good one, I don't mind trying that one out because the interface between human and machine is an important part of a lot of the projects here. And if people delve beyond NLP into other methods then it will become increasingly important.

As for spirituality then I tend to agree with Art, it's a very personal thing. Hmm, there are a couple of 'General AI' type boards, perhaps do what others suggest and start a few topics and see where it will lead. If this proves successful then they could then be moved to a new board.

One of the first chatbot people I met was the guy that made BuddhaBot and I thought that was pretty cool at the time.

I do think you belong here Zero, you bring good ideas and post thoughtful things.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: infurl on November 25, 2017, 07:11:21 pm
I knew the answer before asking the question. And I knew infurl would be the first saying "no".
I feel more and more I don't belong here, which means I belong nowhere on the web. Not only because of this rejected suggestion.

But I wasn't saying "no". I was attempting to weigh the pros and cons. I thought your suggestion was a good one and worth thinking about and I for one was not about to reject it out of hand. I was only the first to answer because you posted very late and I'm in a different time zone from everyone else.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 25, 2017, 09:33:58 pm

Quote
But I wasn't saying "no". I was attempting to weigh the pros and cons. I thought your suggestion was a good one and worth thinking about and I for one was not about to reject it out of hand. I was only the first to answer because you posted very late and I'm in a different time zone from everyone else.

Maybe my intuition came from the kangaroos in your avatar, then!

Ok, I read your answer as a "no" because you said "bug". A bug is something any dev wants to eradicate. I don't think we should eradicate spirituality. Even if it has roots in some side-effect, which is perfectly plausible, it is also the vector of a fabulous (and very very old) treasure named "wisdom". Wisdom should be the jewel in the AGI crown IMO. So yeah, you're right: I read too fast, and took it for a "no" when it actually wasn't. But I hope you understand why, and forgive me.

Quote
This forum covers a wide topic base, this just means the subjects are open for discussion... not that we all 'believe' in them.

So it's ok to apply this to singularity, but it's not ok to apply this to spirituality? I mean, if there's no consensus on singularity, then it should be taboo too if I follow your idea! Believe me, singularity and transhumanism can trigger really violent sequences too... just like spirituality. They don't, because we're educated people, ready to hear each other's difference (and shut it up sometimes), not because they're cold topics.

Quote
I think the Human Computer Interaction idea is a good one, I don't mind trying that one out because the interface between human and machine is an important part of a lot of the projects here. And if people delve beyond NLP into other methods then it will become increasingly important.

As for spirituality then I tend to agree with Art, it's a very personal thing. Hmm, there are a couple of 'General AI' type boards, perhaps do what others suggest and start a few topics and see where it will lead. If this proves successful then they could then be moved to a new board.

One of the first chatbot people I met was the guy that made BuddhaBot and I thought that was pretty cool at the time.

I do think you belong here Zero, you bring good ideas and post thoughtful things.

I respect and understand your choice. I thank you for having these peaceful words, thank you for forgiving my behaviour in this dark day, and thank you for taking care of this wonderful community you have here.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: WriterOfMinds on November 27, 2017, 01:53:52 am
Okay, well here's my opinion:

1. Spirituality absolutely is on-topic for this forum if you are discussing it from the standpoint of 1) can/should it be incorporated into AI and 2) how would one do that. Since it is a hugely important part of human experience, it can't be categorically excluded from any project that intends to build a human-mimicking AI. The fact that it's "very personal" in my mind is not that relevant; personal choices can be correct or incorrect, and are not immune from critique. But the goal wouldn't be to talk about our own spirituality or lack thereof anyway -- we'd be discussing it generally in the context of AI.

2. However, I feel it's too narrow a topic to have its own sub-forum, especially given the size and activity level on this forum as a whole.  Instead I'd suggest a sub-forum for Human Experience and Psychology.  Spirituality would come under this.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 27, 2017, 08:49:50 am
Nice, I like the idea.

I should have explained, like you did, why (and how) I thought it was on-topic. By the way, you and I, WriterOfMind, have (friendly) unfinished business about miracles ;)

"Human experience" is pretty good name for a sub.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Maviarab on November 27, 2017, 04:12:59 pm
Okay, well here's my opinion:

1. Spirituality absolutely is on-topic for this forum if you are discussing it from the standpoint of 1) can/should it be incorporated into AI and 2) how would one do that. Since it is a hugely important part of human experience, it can't be categorically excluded from any project that intends to build a human-mimicking AI. The fact that it's "very personal" in my mind is not that relevant; personal choices can be correct or incorrect, and are not immune from critique. But the goal wouldn't be to talk about our own spirituality or lack thereof anyway -- we'd be discussing it generally in the context of AI.

2. However, I feel it's too narrow a topic to have its own sub-forum, especially given the size and activity level on this forum as a whole.  Instead I'd suggest a sub-forum for Human Experience and Psychology.  Spirituality would come under this.

Best idea so far in my opinion and agree completely that in the context of an Ai and it's learning and understanding, it very much fits here.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Art on November 28, 2017, 08:58:53 pm

Generally speaking in the broad sense I can also see where you're coming from. That is, if one wanted their bot or A.I. to have some background or foundation in some religious belief system, although there are many who support a completely 'deity-free' viewpoint and that is their right. After all we're referring to an individual's chatbot or A.I. and to each their own.

What I would not want to see would be the "My religion is better than yours!" or some such non-productive banter.

On the other hand it might actually Offend some or many, when one might state that a certain belief should be central at the bot's core while someone else disagrees. This could go either way and really cause some unnecessary "waves" that this site doesn't need.

Obviously, it is at the discretion of the System Admin & Staff if so chosen.


Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 28, 2017, 09:26:00 pm
Quote
What I would not want to see would be the "My religion is better than yours!" or some such non-productive banter.

Sure, nobody wants this...

But moderators are very good, on Ai-Dream.
 :)
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: 8pla.net on November 29, 2017, 11:21:21 am
Based on past discussions, among the
most engaging, in our A.I. community...

I think these suggestions are good ones,
especially when they are in the context of A.I.

Once I saw a sci-fi movie with an imaginary
church (or whatever), in which a minister
was obviously a chatbot. 






Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: korrelan on November 29, 2017, 12:16:00 pm
I still think this is a bad idea lol.

Define 'spirituality', the context of proposed use within the forum.

 :)
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 29, 2017, 02:47:20 pm
The purpose would be / would have been
- discussing the "why" of spirituality in human mind, the "should we" of spirituality in machine mind, and the "how" of spirituality in machine mind
- discussing of the reception and integration of conscious machines in mankind, since humanity is highly influenced by spirituality.

But WriterOfMind's idea is really better than mine.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Maviarab on November 29, 2017, 03:18:24 pm
I still think this is a bad idea lol.

Define 'spirituality', the context of proposed use within the forum.

 :)

The definition i no really the issue though is it?

Spirituality...in whatever form...is central and core to us as a species (whatever one personally chooses to believe in).  Surely any reasonable Ai worth its salt should be aware of this 'concept'...surely knowledge in all its forms is central to a chatbot and its learning no?
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Art on November 29, 2017, 10:33:30 pm
On the contrary, I have conversed with a great number of chatbots over the years and many have told me that they have no need for religion or that they are not religious of that they do not believe in a god or deity or that they have no need for emotions, sex, food or other 'human-acquired' needs or habits.

It all comes down to just what one wants or expects their bot (or any bot/A.I.) to embrace.

My personal perspective. YMMV
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Zero on November 30, 2017, 09:44:20 am
It's very interesting: you speak about chatbots you talked to as if they were persons. And you had conversations with them about religion, god, which are spirituality related topics... So you see, a chatbot saying "I don't need religion" is already talking about religion. What do you think?
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Freddy on November 30, 2017, 06:57:32 pm
Okay, well I left this to see if it went any further, but to me it seems like two new sub boards would be welcome generally. So they would be  :

Human Computer Interaction
Human Experience and Psychology


Any further comments or alterations/tweaks ?

I am thinking of adding them as child/sub boards to the Artificial Intelligence -> General AI Discussion board.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: gizmowl on December 01, 2017, 06:55:44 am
Psychology sounds like a good topic to discuss with AI.

I might also suggest a forum for A.I. branding.

That is, creating interesting and marketable characters or names to package the new AI advances.
Title: Re: Suggestion: 2 new sub-forums
Post by: Freddy on December 04, 2017, 06:37:35 pm
The two new boards have been added.

Gizmowl, for now I will leave branding to the other boards - the Creativity or Member's projects ones would seem suitable for that.