Ai Dreams Forum

Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Human Experience and Psychology => Topic started by: Zero on December 18, 2017, 09:12:17 am

Title: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 18, 2017, 09:12:17 am
My first idea was to name this thread "What is free will?"... but wondering whether free will is reproducible seems to be more pragmatic, and still includes the question of what it is.

I remember WriterOfMind saying (http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=12508.msg48529#msg48529) that free will could be somehow related to "localized temporary override of the standard laws of physics", a brave suggestion. Well, do you think that such "overriding" exists? If so, is it reproducible? Why or why not?

Do you think human free will is an illusion? Do you think it's real? If it's an illusion, should an AGI have the same illusion? If it's real, then what is it? How do we reproduce it?

What's your take on these topics?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: keghn on December 18, 2017, 02:36:09 pm
 You have free will as long as your internal, hard coded, rearwards are satiated.
 The conscious mind is to do a better job, then the subconscious mind, at for filling these rewards. If not
the subconscious will take over. The will also construct a new queen be for the hive. A second conscious. Two
consciousness in the same mind is not god thing if you have no family for safety and there fast predators around. 
 But this is a fail safe to save the whole collective swarm.

Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on December 19, 2017, 12:38:48 am
That's a real question there.

If we think that the Universe is strict set of rules, starting from quarks, ending with lifeforms, then there is no free will (it is just illusion). If we think that the Universe starts with life forms, and ends with quarks, then that would make us gods, and all there is, would be free will. The third possibility is that quarks do their job, life forms do their, and we meet in between. That would explain the real free will, while retaining strict rules of physics. Who knows, maybe free will is indistinguishable from elementary particle rules, meaning that what we think has a direct impact to elementary particles behavior.

How to implement a free will into AI?

One way is to use chaos that influences making decisions. Of course, we would want to control that chaos in some extent, just to be sure nothing bad happens. Some of us might think that there is no such thing as chaos. Well, to be honest, it is possible that chaotic input / output is not completely random, but controlled by a higher force. In that case we would have an opportunity to contact the higher force by AI semi-chaotic input / output, if, of course, the possible higher force would like to reveal its existence to us. On the other hand, it could always play random chaos if it wants to stay hidden, which would be the same experience as if it doesn't exist.

For now, we can only have our own presumptions, but a real scientist would never take for granted an acceptance or denial of existence of something without a proof. And maybe this question is something we (or AI) would never be able to prove either way. I heard somewhere that there was some effort to prove the existence of god by constructing a math logic proof of it. The result is probably nothing serious or worth of attention, as it is not widely known.

The other way to implement a free will into AI is to make a new living form that has artificial extensions for peeking and poking the Universe, but then it wouldn't be AI , it would be NI (natural intelligence - with artificial body). We would need a real chemistry, some magic and a decent explanation of life phenomena to do it that way. But I don't know how ethical it would be. We would have to know a lot of other things too before we play gods of wisdom.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: korrelan on December 20, 2017, 01:41:32 pm
‘Free will’ is always a good topic for a bit of lateral thinking/ brainstorming lol.

‘Free will’ is just a collective term for the choices that that we execute every second of every day, from the way you pickup a cup; to the vocational path you intend to pursue.

We use experience, knowledge, personal preference, peer pressure, etc to weigh up the facets/ variables of the choices, predict the outcome and evaluate possible repercussions, etc. The term implies that a person has the free choice between two or more options/ actions/ etc.

Firstly I think you have to consider where these choices are coming from.  Whether they are provided by an external source or an internal indecision they still have to be generated/ understood and filtered by the brain.

I think it’s logical to assume that we can only use the logic/ knowledge/ experiences that we have personally encounted to filter/ reason about the choices. 

This is where the sub-conscious throws a spanner in the works.  We have no control over our subconscious, it’s driven by the hierarchical knowledge/ experience we have built up over our lifetime.  Personal beliefs, our location, health, the temperature, etc all play a part in the way our subconscious processes the choices.  The choices are filtered and understood by our internal ‘logic’ schema, and our consciousness is derived from that subconscious.

Even if you decide to throw caution to the wind and make a decision other than relevant ones, it’s your deep understanding of the problem space and previous experience of doing so that allows you to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be a choice.

So yes… I think we do exercise a kind of free will; we make free choices every second but… although we make a conscious choice between the possible options, the choices them selves are jaded/ constrained by our own intellects.

I think this is where most of the arguments about ‘free will’ arise from, the whole process is contained within our own brains so the choice is our ‘will’… it’s the ‘free’ part that causes ambiguity… all we can do is learn, accumulate experiences and knowledge so that as we filter the choices, our subconscious is wise enough to give us the correct information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ

If any of that makes sense lol.

 :)

Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 21, 2017, 09:57:54 am
I do like the idea of a Universe that starts with life forms, and ends with quarks, even though I don't think it makes us gods... or if we're gods, well we're gods in a democracy: beliefs of everyone are averaged to produce standard laws of physics.

Quote
One way is to use chaos that influences making decisions. Of course, we would want to control that chaos in some extent, just to be sure nothing bad happens.
I don't agree here. On the contrary, I believe it's our responsability to make an AGI that will be both:
Why? Look at the example given by our new friend Kurovsky, about Trump and scaring people to make them buy shit we don't need. If humans can control AGIs, really bad things are going to happen!

Quote
‘Free will’ is just a collective term for the choices that that we execute every second of every day, from the way you pickup a cup; to the vocational path you intend to pursue.
I tend to think alike, which is why I accept animism as a convenient way to explain a lot of things. I often think things like "my car decided not to start this morning". Ok, my car is an object, so we usually wouldn't say it "made a choice" about not starting. But personally, I don't mind using such concepts. Hence IMO, AGI will have free will if it constantly appears to have free will. It's not an illusion, it's just a term.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ranch vermin on December 21, 2017, 10:48:09 am
maybe a machine will be made that has what may as well be free will, and perhaps even self diagnosing, but it wont be conscious - as far as i use the term in my mind.    it brings up the point of solipsism,  its impossible to tell anyone is "alive" except yourself as a certainty, unless u trust and see similarity and just believe it.

The same goes for your robot, how the hell can u tell if its alive or not?  seems to be,  never know for sure.
Like Zero said, its a trust thing.

but...

I guess you just trust that its......... NOT.     and your friends.  ARE.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on December 21, 2017, 11:39:32 am
How is free will implemented into humans?

We seem to be equipped by an unconscious  automatic solution finder. We imagine, i.e. drinking a coffee from a cup. A part of the brain delivers us a solution: move a hand, pick up the cup, move the hand again, and finally, drink the coffee. This sequence is delivered, and we don't know how, it just appeared to us. Now we can choose to do it or not to do it. If we don't do it, we wait more, and another solution appears: move the head to the cup, then lick the coffee. Now we have two alternatives from we can choose what to do. More waiting would bring us another alternative to our collection of solutions (we can ask someone to bring the cup to our mouth).

Solutions are just falling from the sky, we just choose to do it that way or wait for another solution. Somehow, these solutions avoid what we don't want, and follow what we do want.

If what we have is a kind of unconscious equipment for solving problems, what would be an interface, an input/output between our will and this equipment?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 21, 2017, 12:37:14 pm
Quote
Solutions are just falling from the sky, we just choose to do it that way or wait for another solution. Somehow, these solutions avoid what we don't want, and follow what we do want.
So, free will would be due to the fact that there's a part of our brain we can't access consciously. If it's what you're saying, I agree.

Quote
but it wont be conscious - as far as i use the term in my mind
You know, consiousness itself isn't the hard part of AGI. I'll implement a microscopic conscious program, to show the principle, and post it in another thread. Everyone understands javascript right? We'll go JS.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 22, 2017, 12:03:49 pm
Damn, I failed  ;D  ::)

Here is what I got...


This is a microscopic conscious program.

The aim is to show some principles, and play around.

First, a conscious entity needs sensors and actuators. We'll keep it simple: only 8 numbers as external sensors (input), and 4 numbers as actuators (output). That's completely arbitrary.

Code: [Select]

var entity = {};

entity.externalSensors = [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0];

entity.externalActuators = [0, 0, 0, 0];


What they represent doesn't really matter. Sensors are modified by the outer world. Actuators modifiy the outer world.

Now we'll create simple setter functions for actuators.

Code: [Select]

entity.setActuator = function(actuatorId, newValue) {

entity.externalActuators[actuatorId] = newValue;
}


We want our program to be able to feel what's going on inside of itself. Let's make 4 internal sensors!

Code: [Select]

entity.internalSensors = [0, 0, 0, 0];


We only need 3 sensors, for now: one for the eventId, the two others for the "parameters" of the event. But I like 1/2/4/8-like numbers. Our only event so far is setActuator, so let's modify it.

Code: [Select]

entity.setActuator = function(actuatorId, newValue) {

entity.externalActuators[actuatorId] = newValue;

entity.internalSensors = [0, actuatorId, newValue, 0];
}


Now, whenever we move our muscles, we can feel it, thanks to our internal sensors. The zero in the first internal sensor represents the "setActuator event". It's our eventId: ID of setActuator = 0. The last internal sensor is left to zero because there's nothing more to say about this event.

Good. Now let's make an instant memory. The program will run step by step, and the instant memory will contain sensors and actuators data of the 4 most recent steps.

Code: [Select]

entity.instantMemory = [
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
];

entity.refreshInstantMemory = function() {

entity.instantMemory.push(
entity.externalSensors
.concat(entity.internalSensors)
.concat(entity.externalActuators)
);

entity.instantMemory.shift();
}


The instant memory is a 4x(8+4+4)= 64 cells grid.

Wow, that's huge! No computer on earth can possibly handle this... Too bad. Well our program will have to focus on a small part of it.

To make our focus system, we need two things: a targeting device, and a compression device.

The targeting device's purpose is to choose what we focus on.

The compression device's purpose is to reduce the amount of data. It doesn't need to be a lossless function. For example, if I say "I met a girl today", I'm compressing a lot of things, but it still has a meaning. In a real world project, this is where you would stuff that wonderful pattern recognition algorithm. But here we'll use a simple function: find the 2 highest equal numbers, and return their sum.

The entity's "target" is an array of 4 numbers between 0 and 63, which are the addresses in the instant memory. That's our targeting device. We'll default to the first 4 sensors.

Code: [Select]

entity.target = [0, 1, 2, 3];

entity.setTarget = function(targetSlot, newAddress) {

entity.target[targetSlot] = newAddress;

entity.internalSensors = [1, targetSlot, newAddress, 0];
}


Like before, when we modify the focus, we let the program "feel" what it's doing, by updating the internal sensors, with an eventId of 1. So now we have two eventIds: 0 is setActuator, and 1 is setTarget.

Ok, here is a "fetcher", it just fetches and return the targeted values.

Code: [Select]

entity.xy = function(n) { return { x: n%16, y: Math.floor(n/16) }; }


entity.fetch = function() {

var values = [];

for (var t=0; t<4; t++) {

var addr = entity.xy(entity.target[t]);
values.push(entity.instantMemory[addr.y][addr.x]);
}

return values
}


And here is our compression device. It takes what's in the focus, and gives an interpretation of it. The returned number is the sum of the 2 highest equal numbers in the focus. The returned number describes the situation, even though a lot of data is lost in the process.

Code: [Select]

entity.interpret = function(values) {

var candidate = 0;

for (var i1=0; i1<3; i1++) {

for (var i2=i1+1; i2<4; i2++) {

if ((values[i1]==values[i2]) && (values[i1]>candidate))

candidate = values[i1];
}
}

return candidate*2;
}


Now we'll make a behavioral memory, in order to store our program's behavior. We keep it really simple stupid, it's just a reactive system, unable to learn. We associate a number returned by the compression device to an action.

Code: [Select]

entity.behavior = {

2: [0, 2, 3, 0],
6: [0, 1, 0, 0],
8: [1, 0, 2, 0]
}

entity.do = function(action) {

if (action[0]==0) setActuator(action[1], action[2]);
if (action[0]==1) setTarget(action[1], action[2]);
}


And the main loop would be something like:

Code: [Select]

entity.run = function() {

while (1) {

entity.refreshInstantMemory();

entity.do(
entity.behavior[
entity.interpret(
entity.fetch())]);
}
}


That's it!
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: korrelan on December 23, 2017, 12:35:48 am
Nice… but… doesn’t it need an environment/ reality? 

The internal memory should record the results from the sensors along with the actions that where being taken prior. The servo/ motor sensory feedback loops require an external medium for the feed back to travel through/ be affected by... no? 

A human foetus can only pre-learn joint positions, skin tension, etc against the motor outputs, ok sometimes a hand, foot, extremity might press against the womb wall but the foetus has no point of reference to map the sensory information.

Isn’t your bot just flapping about in… space?

 :)
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 23, 2017, 08:31:18 am
You're right, it's absolutely useless as is, because
1) the compression device is completely meaningless
2) the system isn't wired to anything

Instead of an isolated run() loop, if we want to make a library out of it, we would rather provide a step() function like this:

Code: [Select]

entity.step = function(input) {

entity.externalSensors = input;

entity.refreshInstantMemory();

entity.do(
entity.behavior[
entity.interpret(
entity.fetch())]);

return entity.externalActuators;
}


The user of the library would then include the step() function in the main loop of an environment for the program.

About the feedback loops, what you saw here is not the external feedback loop, which indeed needs a medium to travel through. I consider this to be outside of the bot (it belongs to the environment). An example of external feedback loop is when you move your arm, you can feel your flesh (your muscle) moving. But your arm isn't part of your brain, hence the name "external" feedback.

No, what you saw here is the internal feedback loop. It's just the brain knowing (feeling) what it's doing.



Maybe with a more elaborated compression device, we could make some kind of self-observing Turing tape... a perfect (dumb) brain for Flappy Bird video game!  :P
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on December 23, 2017, 11:27:10 am
With polite intentions, and in simple terms, the answer is, "No."

I do think it may be simulatable though.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 23, 2017, 01:52:12 pm
Interesting. Do you consider simulation is different from emulation or reproduction? Why?
Or perhaps did you mean "it's possible to fake it, but impossible to make true free will"?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ranch vermin on December 23, 2017, 08:35:32 pm
Its funny how you wrote the machine to analyze itself,  but we have a hard time working that out, alot of people youd think dont analyze themselves at all.  but i guess its an option we have,  its not "machine internal self monitoring diagnostics".
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on December 23, 2017, 09:10:54 pm
Interesting. Do you consider simulation is different from emulation or reproduction? Why?
Or perhaps did you mean "it's possible to fake it, but impossible to make true free will"?

A simulation is a model, while an emulation or reproduction is a copy.
I said, "No." because free will expresses the future, which is impossible to reproduce.
Lastly, my feedback here is to support your research, friend.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on December 23, 2017, 11:28:27 pm
Its funny how you wrote the machine to analyze itself,  but we have a hard time working that out, alot of people youd think dont analyze themselves at all.  but i guess its an option we have,  its not "machine internal self monitoring diagnostics".
Maybe a lot of people don't analyse themselves, but they still can "sense" their own thoughts, hence the internal sensors idea. That's the core thing IMO.

Quote
I said, "No." because free will expresses the future, which is impossible to reproduce.
Lastly, my feedback here is to support your research, friend.

Thanks for you support, my friend  ;)
Could you tell me more about "free will expresses the future", please? What do you mean exactly?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Thierry on December 23, 2017, 11:52:18 pm
We are all prisoners of :
* our needs
* our desires
* our capacities

Free will is the best jail we can find.

Talking about jail this is interesting to see how justice is paradoxal with sex criminals.
They have to respond of their crimes. (Because they are responsible of their acts. They were conscious during the acts)
And they have to be cured chemically. (Because their hormonal dysfunction is the one responsible. They were not conscious during the acts)

I come to the point that there are two kind of free will. An individual one and a collective one.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: keghn on December 24, 2017, 12:27:08 am
@Thierry do The French have free will around dinner time? The French a very healthy people. I want to learn the way
they eat and enjoy food. So to get around to the point, Do French people drink wine
before dinner, on a empty stomach to get them into better mood for dinner, or after dinner, or before and after? 
 Water goes right past the stomach, and into the body. Soups take a half hour and shorter.
There are microbe in the body that make chemical that can influence person. So a persons free will may be what a non
intelligent micro wants.

 https://gizmodo.com/the-fungus-that-turns-ants-into-zombies-is-more-diaboli-1820301538

 But all i need, when i am brain storming, is piece of bread and soft cheese, both with a really thick skin and a bottle of red wine.




Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Thierry on December 24, 2017, 12:41:55 pm
@Thierry do The French have free will around dinner time? The French a very healthy people. I want to learn the way
they eat and enjoy food. So to get around to the point, Do French people drink wine
before dinner, on a empty stomach to get them into better mood for dinner, or after dinner, or before and after? 
 Water goes right past the stomach, and into the body. Soups take a half hour and shorter.
There are microbe in the body that make chemical that can influence person. So a persons free will may be what a non
intelligent micro wants.

 https://gizmodo.com/the-fungus-that-turns-ants-into-zombies-is-more-diaboli-1820301538

 But all i need, when i am brain storming, is piece of bread and soft cheese, both with a really thick skin and a bottle of red wine.

Yes we do have free will all the time specially when it comes nice dinners !  ::)

We drink before, during, and after the meal !  ;D

Before the meal are the drinks with salted biscuits or salted chips or peanuts or anything as long as this is salted. Salt is giving thirst.
Any alcohol but not too much. 1 glass maximum.
During the meal only wine. White wine for the fish, red wine for red or white meat.
Dessert : red or white wine
After the meal we take a "digestive" alcohol. Usually a strong liquor... so that "fungus" that came into oysters or any weird meal are killed instantly and cannot can transform us as zombies !

About your brain storming, well this is not so bad ! Red wine is good for the heart and cheese is good for ... AI creation !  O0 ;D

Merry Christmas Keghn !
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on December 27, 2017, 01:09:01 am
I think free will, without free time, is just a probability.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 02, 2018, 03:06:43 pm
At least, we can reproduce free beer.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: keghn on January 02, 2018, 05:53:21 pm
 
 The choreographer
 The choreographer of free will. reproduction of the free will system, in a AGI.
 It is a agent that run in the back ground and stay out of the way. This agent top agent in the AGI system.
 It stay out of the way most of the time to let the other agents of the collective swarm do there functions.
 When it is out of the way The AGI has complete free will. The choreographer agent is squarely seated in the subconscious
part of the mind. The more it active it become the less conscious the AGI is. Consciousness is the agent called the Main focus.

 If one is hunger then mental video frame leading to food will be enhanced. All weight of video that lead away form food will scrambled to
 make the path confusing, or the weight will set to zero to make thought of moving away from food unthinkable.

How your body fights back when you diet: 
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/02/health/body-fights-dieting-food-partner/index.html

Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on January 03, 2018, 01:22:36 am
At least, we can reproduce free beer.

Are you attempting an alternative to random?
Perhaps, pseudo free will?  Meaning, it is not
actual free will, but difficult to tell the difference.







Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 04, 2018, 09:41:00 am
I think this "random" feeling is due to all that happens behind the scene, at subconscious level. Since we don't feel where it comes from, it appears to be randomly falling from the sky.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on January 06, 2018, 02:43:08 am
Here is a theory: thoughts fall from the sky. Some of them we like, some of them not. Thoughts we like modify our behavior and influence the future thoughts that fall from the sky. So, a free will could reduce to thought liking or not. The question is what defines whether we like some thought, or not.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 06, 2018, 01:38:58 pm
Appeal, Usefulness or potential usefulness.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ranch vermin on January 06, 2018, 01:46:50 pm
If u know your ai system front to back xrayed through it,  u know why it does what it does so thinking its "free will" is impossible, its the method you used for it.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on January 06, 2018, 07:14:23 pm
I think this "random" feeling is due to all that happens behind the scene, at subconscious level.

Do you think "random" is deterministic or probabilistic?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 07, 2018, 10:41:18 am
I think this "random" feeling is due to all that happens behind the scene, at subconscious level.

Do you think "random" is deterministic or probabilistic?

On a metaphysical level?

I think when you flip a coin, you create two universes: one for each possibility. So it's both deterministic and probabilistic.

For example, life on earth is not by chance. It's just possible.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ranch vermin on January 07, 2018, 01:02:50 pm
I think this "random" feeling is due to all that happens behind the scene, at subconscious level.

Do you think "random" is deterministic or probabilistic?

On a metaphysical level?

I think when you flip a coin, you create two universes: one for each possibility. So it's both deterministic and probabilistic.

For example, life on earth is not by chance. It's just possible.


That always gets me fearful, that philosophy, because hell is also possible.   but how come we are here not there?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 07, 2018, 03:17:38 pm
Who's to say you're not?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on January 07, 2018, 04:08:00 pm
You have to admit, there are beautiful things in this world. On the other end, I've learned, even in the worst moments, things are not as bad as they could be. Things aren't always perfect, but it is always bearable, and there is always hope. I've seen some ugly times in my life, but thinking about them now, they weren't as bad as they theoretically could be. And that is not how I imagine theoretical Hell (in which I don't believe anyway).
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Freddy on January 07, 2018, 05:10:48 pm
I think when you flip a coin, you create two universes: one for each possibility. So it's both deterministic and probabilistic.

Isn't this the multiverse theory ? In that every possibility is played out in some part of the multiverse ?

This means we've each already created AGI  :D
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 08, 2018, 08:13:13 am
It's like putting 100 mice in a 100 mazes. Some mazes have no air to breathe, some mazes are full of fire, some mazes are full of poison, some mazes have bits of cheese here and there. After a week, mice which are still alive wonder "How come I am in this maze". That's the cruel beauty of the multiverse.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ranch vermin on January 08, 2018, 09:17:42 am
beauty..  more like ugliness.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 08, 2018, 10:22:26 am
Yeah. But our world has beauty too.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 09, 2018, 02:06:15 pm
In this case, Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder!

Think about it...to a barbarian, the slaughter of his enemies in battle is a beautiful thing.
To a King, knowing his daughter has given birth to a son is a beautiful thing.
To a witch, creating a perfect potion is a beautiful thing.
To a researcher in a lab, developing a wonder drug is a perfect thing.

And so on...and so on....
What might seem gruesome to some might well be beautiful to others.
It depends on which side of the fence one is on.

Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on January 10, 2018, 01:43:01 am
Zero,

"free" can not be under the control of another or it is not free.
Reproducible is under the control of another, so it can not be free.
Can you write a computer program of free will under your control?
Virtual Free Will.


NOTE: My discussion is about A.I. and it is all in a friendly tone.
I am just reading your interesting topic carefully and thoroughly.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 10, 2018, 09:51:02 am
8pla.net, your posts are always polite, pleasant and interesting.

Humans give birth to other humans. We "reproduce" humans. And if humans have free will, this means we already can reproduce free will. So I don't think "free" and "reproducible" are mutually exclusive.

But my original question lacks precision: it should have been: can we reproduce free will in a computer?

This question is important, because only free will can make people understand that an engineered conscious being is really conscious, self-aware, alive.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on January 10, 2018, 07:08:07 pm
How about: one would *think* that he has a free will. But in the cruel reality underneath, he doesn't?

But it shouldn't be just a programmed answer: "I have a free will". It should be simulated somehow by hiding the truth, if nothing else. Who knows, maybe that could be a reason why we initially know nothing about ourselves - to have that valuable feeling of being free.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 10, 2018, 09:21:43 pm
@ Zero : "can we reproduce free will in a computer?"

To do what, exactly?
The very idea of free will is as convoluted as Artificial Intelligence.

Nothing is Free under the umbrella of computing, AI, robotics, etc., unless it might be advice.
Free Will is limited to humans as well. One can't yell fire in a theater or shopping mall (unless there really IS a fire).

Regarding computers, I'd have to ask, to what end? What purpose or what program might one be creating to run in this computer? A Chatbot? Nope.
Not Free. No matter what is written in a Computer is bound by the constraints of the programmer's / program's limitations. It is that invisible "force field" in which that program must operate. (Almost sounds like Rod Serling's Twilight Zone).

While the programmer might have the best of intentions the only thing that does come to mind might be those code jockeys, cretins, who write nefarious codes as trojans, rootkits, and all sorts of Virii and hijacking programs. In that case, they give their program free will within limits and therein lies the contradiction of Free Will itself. It is only tasked to perform a certain action, almost like humans in their daily work schedule. Like theirs, our Free Will is quite limited and rarely free.

Just my take...
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on January 11, 2018, 01:49:40 am
Zero said, "But my original question lacks precision..."
But, your question which (you say) lacked precision was original.
Originality is more important than precision, I think...
You proposed determinism may substitute for randomness on a computer.





Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 11, 2018, 02:45:32 pm
After WWII, a lot of german soldiers said "We had orders, I was just following orders".

I don't want an AGI that would "just follow the orders".
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 11, 2018, 03:39:42 pm
It doesn't matter Zero...That's what soldiers or anyone else in the military does...they follow orders, no matter how inconsequential or ridiculous they might seem.
Same in most businesses (governments included). Everyone has a boss and within these organizations, there exists a "pecking order" or a large Flow Chart from Top Down according to importance or position. Everyone is expected to follow orders.

Now, getting back to your program. Let's say you want it to have the basics of mobility and the ability to learn and reason. Then you would set it free to explore anything and everything on its own.

Would that cover your intended project?

Otherwise, I'd think it should have some purpose, especially if it was so advanced and all-knowing.

Life without purpose isn't much of a life, to my way of thinking.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on January 11, 2018, 05:01:11 pm
What if the purpose would be like making influences in our behavior?
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 11, 2018, 05:05:10 pm
But it DOES matter. A lot of soldiers didn't follow orders (they had free will) and saved lives, and this matters. An AGI should be able to do that.

I don't know if life has a purpose, and if it does I don't know what it is. Yes, maybe influence.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on January 11, 2018, 05:24:01 pm
I thought of my own answer to a purpose of my life: to make the world a nicer place to live in for as much as living beings as I can. You can say it is a product of free will. I didn't know anything of this kind of answer when I was a much younger. But I can't disregard the influence of my environment. I was heavily influenced by them and It is almost a closed circle now, as I'm trying to pass it to others.

What is sad is that free will notion was almost totally hijacked by my environment that had gathered experience through history, and passed it to me. I think it is about what Korrelan wrote in his blog about aging. More there is knowledge, harder it becomes to change it. I just hope that we didn't collectively deviate in some mean dead-end. And I think this could represent an enemy to an artificial free will we are talking about - the heavy influence of environment.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 11, 2018, 09:24:38 pm
That's a noble choice for life ivan.moony, no doubt about it!

Quote
I just hope that we didn't collectively deviate in some mean dead-end. And I think this could represent an enemy to an artificial free will we are talking about - the heavy influence of environment.
Well, maybe the western world did deviate indeed. But western is only a small part of the world. All this fuss (smartphones & social networks) is nothing: 1 solar flare, and we're back to stone age. So what does really matter? The silent wisdom hidden in people, far away from TV shows and computers.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ivan.moony on January 11, 2018, 10:26:58 pm
Yes, we should be careful about TV and other media brainwashers. That is a dangerous power, to have such an influence in the west world. To be seen how it ends. Three possibilities: (1) stupid war influenced by mass media, (2) rebellion against mass media, or (3) mass media self enlightenment. Somehow I doubt the third is possible soon, in some greater extent. But in a longer run, I hope for (3). Right now, (1) and (3) are cunningly balanced to avoid (2) from happening.

I wonder what would creators of AI say to their first creature about the mass media. I mean, there is so much valuable knowledge to learn from, but it also holds back the free will, if literally taken for granted, IMHO. Some dose of skepticism is a must-have to retain objectivity. People are quite gullible, if I may notice, and that is what makes us dangerous. I just hope the machines will be smarter.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on January 12, 2018, 11:10:18 am
All computer programs follow instructions.
Artificial Intelligence is a computer program.
Artificial Intelligence follows instructions.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 12, 2018, 03:05:50 pm
That is not true. Many programming languages are non deterministic (https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Nondeterministic).
 ;)
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 12, 2018, 03:53:38 pm
But, they all have a programmed purpose and an End result, no matter how different.
 Not Free Will in the slightest.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 12, 2018, 08:05:01 pm
Rules are made to be broken!

More seriously, who can say "my computer never behaves unexpectedly"?

Moreover, "following instructions" isn't the same as "following orders". Instructions are just the flesh of a program, not its will. Yes, I think we can say that a program "wants" to do something. And what it wants can depend on other things than its code alone, like data input for instance.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 12, 2018, 10:31:30 pm
Also random uncertainty noise in the algorithm can be injected in. Then when it goes to pick up a ball, its hand may be 2 milimeters off than should have been. You can also eliminate Uncertainty Principal in a perfect simulation for years though. Therefore you can have the true randomness or keep it non-random.

Instead of being a small change in movement, it could be a small enough change to chose/select a whole different task, like pick up ball scores 6.4 and pick up cube scores 6.3...and then that small randomness from the universe nudges the decision score to pick up cube (6.6).
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: 8pla.net on January 14, 2018, 04:04:21 am
Zero,

It is a worthy pursuit, I think.
I hope my feedback is useful.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Art on January 14, 2018, 02:20:42 pm
@ Zero,

Want - a specific feeling of desire.

Zero stated:
"...Yes, I think we can say that a program "wants" to do something. And what it wants can depend on other things than its code alone, like data input for instance."

What you have implied is that your program is sentient. That it has feelings. If mine did I'd allow it to handle my email without me. ;) But it wouldn't want to or need to. It would simply exist, waiting to perform a task.

Instructions: to deliver the mail
Orders: Deliver the mail by three o'clock.

The two could be combined if you are handed a paper or your computer is given the code with the explicit instructions written as: You are to deliver the mail by three o'clock.

But, your program, computer, keyboard, microphone, smart phone might be ready and able to receive input, they are hardly "wanting" to do so.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: ranch vermin on January 14, 2018, 06:08:00 pm
That's a noble choice for life ivan.moony, no doubt about it!

Quote
I just hope that we didn't collectively deviate in some mean dead-end. And I think this could represent an enemy to an artificial free will we are talking about - the heavy influence of environment.
Well, maybe the western world did deviate indeed. But western is only a small part of the world. All this fuss (smartphones & social networks) is nothing: 1 solar flare, and we're back to stone age. So what does really matter? The silent wisdom hidden in people, far away from TV shows and computers.

I unfortunately believe in the dead end.   The truth is a manacling device, making us no different from each other,   the truth grants you power to do things, but as you are gleeful about that your just getting sucked away from any form of personality you could have had otherwise.

Personality is being deviation from the truth,  the truth being the ultimate chess game,  personality being bias that makes you lose in the end of things.

If we ever make the "perfect man" with logic software,  we are just deviations from this perfect logical unforgetting system.   seems like a let down to me,  but i keep going pushed by my ego.

Maybe one day ill drop the whole thing and just knife myself...  who knows.
Title: Re: Is free will reproducible?
Post by: Zero on January 14, 2018, 06:19:55 pm
Yes, your feedback is useful 8pla.net!

Art, why not using the word "want"?

Also, if a program is listening to keyboard events, wouldn't you say that it "senses" the keyboard, and that it is reactive to sense impressions (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sentient)?

After all, our posts aren't made of mathematical formulae... this is natural language, let's not be too strict.

Ranch, we're not dead yet. Let the poetry flow in!