What defines Human?

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Thierry

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2017, 12:57:05 am »
No the very first difference is "secondary tools".
Monkeys and humans can use a rock as a tool. This tool is called "primary tool". But humans were the only "animals" to use a rock to make another better rock. This tool is a "secondary tool".

The distinction is animals that only know how to use tools that they find, versus animals that know how to make tools. There are many kinds of animals (and birds) that can make tools, so you are wrong.

Do some research and you will find that of all animals, chimpanzees are the only animals other than humans that have a natural understanding of fire, but they don't know how to use it. Human beings alone are capable of harnessing external sources of energy as an aid to living.
No I said humans can create "secondary tools"... meaning a tool made with another tool in order to get a better final tool. Exemple : chopping a rock with another rock to get a blade. If you know  animals able to do that please tell me

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korrelan

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2017, 01:13:00 am »
Hmmm... Wouldn't this crow using the edge of the container to bend a wire be secondary tool use?



 :)
It thunk... therefore it is!

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infurl

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2017, 01:15:46 am »
No I said humans can create "secondary tools"... meaning a tool made with another tool in order to get a better final tool. Exemple : chopping a rock with another rock to get a blade. If you know  animals able to do that please tell me

What, you want me to "Google" it for you now? You do know how to use tools don't you?

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2017, 01:57:22 am »
No I said humans can create "secondary tools"... meaning a tool made with another tool in order to get a better final tool. Exemple : chopping a rock with another rock to get a blade. If you know  animals able to do that please tell me

What, you want me to "Google" it for you now? You do know how to use tools don't you?


Looks to me like Thierry politely invited you to correct his ignorance IF you had additional information that he was unaware of.  No, he's not asking you to do his research for him.  You didn't read his first post carefully, and now you're sassing him for no good reason.

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ivan.moony

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2017, 08:31:55 am »
Yes, Thierry is just trying to have a friendly conversation.
If you vaporize a teardrop, you get a salt.   :flake:

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Thierry

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2017, 01:55:07 pm »
Hmmm... Wouldn't this crow using the edge of the container to bend a wire be secondary tool use?



 :)

Well I expected those black crows coming to my skies  ;D

Yes that crow is making the hook thanks to the container shape. The hook is indeed a tool.
But the container has not been "made" by the crow for this purpose. The bird only used its environment as a tool to modify a primary tool. Is this bird (or another animal) able to "conceive" a tool in order to "conceive" another tool ? May be it is to check on monkeys side...

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korrelan

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2017, 08:13:05 pm »
One could argue the fact that it is using its environment in such a manner requires just as much intelligence as making a specific tool. There are millions of ways the crow could have applied the wire to the box, it seemed to know exactly what to do.

This of course raises quite a few other questions. How did the crow know the correct angle to bend the wire?  How did it know the length of the bent piece would fit inside the tube?  How did it know the wire was malleable and wouldn’t snap like a twig, etc?

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Art

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2017, 04:01:48 am »
All seem valid points with the exception of the chimp/gorilla family, we have an opposable thumb which enables us to grip and grasp things such as sticks, spears, various handles and shapes. (the chimp using that animal bone as a club on 2001: A Space Odyssey)...

The marked ability to think (thoughts, love, feelings, situations, ponderables), reason (more logic, rationale, decision making, processing), develop language, and use fire pretty much sums it up for me. Walking upright and not dragging our knuckles (well for most of us), is not always definitive but is a good start. ;)
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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Thierry

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2017, 10:47:03 pm »
One could argue the fact that it is using its environment in such a manner requires just as much intelligence as making a specific tool. There are millions of ways the crow could have applied the wire to the box, it seemed to know exactly what to do.

This of course raises quite a few other questions. How did the crow know the correct angle to bend the wire?  How did it know the length of the bent piece would fit inside the tube?  How did it know the wire was malleable and wouldn’t snap like a twig, etc?

 :)

Actually all your questions make sense.
My point of view : May be because the scientist behind this study is not objective. He/she wants the bird's success in order to "show" success. Parameters were made to succeed. Choice of each element coming from an environment that the bird already knows (why not trying with a strange food, a strange stick, a non transparent tube, etc...) 
This experiment looks like an emulation rather than experiment.

Crows like any other species considered as intelligent  (monkeys, dolphins...) have something in common. They live in societies or groups and imitate each other's techniques when a benefit is encountered by one of them. Those techniques are usually found by experimenting (in the sense of trying in order to succeed)

They use imitation as a learning process.

Therefore, I am more and more sure that this crow in the video is just executing an imitation process (or more than one) with specific steps that cannot be anything else than that.   

So the hook, the tube (I guess a branch of a tree in the nature), are may be learnt since the crow was just a little crow.

What I find really interesting is that they seem to separate their global imitation skills into sub imitation skills so that they can adapt to any skind of situation. As if they compose an imitation scenario for each a new situation...

Inspiring ! ::)

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Art

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2017, 01:37:26 pm »
Therefore, it might be just as safe to say that Human learning is mostly done through imitation.
Children learn by imitating their adults or other children who already know or possess certain skills or abilities.

We often say that animals do some things instinctively but then again, so do we.

Humans learn by imitating experiments, imitating ideas or passages from books they've read, etc.

The most sincere form of flattery...Imitation.  O0
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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korrelan

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2017, 01:47:07 pm »
Therefore, it might be just as safe to say that Human learning is mostly done through imitation.
Children learn by imitating their adults or other children who already know or possess certain skills or abilities.

We often say that animals do some things instinctively but then again, so do we.

Humans learn by imitating experiments, imitating ideas or passages from books they've read, etc.

The most sincere form of flattery...Imitation.  O0

 :)
It thunk... therefore it is!

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ivan.moony

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2017, 04:16:44 pm »
How hard would it be to train neural net to imitate seen behavior when detecting behavior pattern?

[edit] By behavior I mean complex human behavior we all experience every day.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 05:36:40 pm by ivan.moony »
If you vaporize a teardrop, you get a salt.   :flake:

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infurl

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2017, 07:27:26 pm »
Therefore, it might be just as safe to say that Human learning is mostly done through imitation.
Children learn by imitating their adults or other children who already know or possess certain skills or abilities.

There are four different ways in which humans learn with imitation being only one of those methods. Not everyone learns the same way. We all learn best using different combinations of these methods. You can ask any qualified teacher for confirmation of this.

1. learning by experiment and action
2. learning by having it explained to you
3. learning by having it demonstrated to you
4. learning by reading about it.

Of course there are other ways of breaking it down too but hopefully you get the general idea.

https://www.learning-styles-online.com/overview/

Animals also employ all these learning methods, though to what extent may depend on their language ability which in most cases is still somewhat underestimated by anthropocentric humans.

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Don Patrick

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2017, 02:53:52 pm »
As this is a philosophical question, I will wax philosophically as an answer.
On a table are four items: A red ball, a blue cube, a striped ball, and a red cube with stripes. What defines the latter?
Personal project: NLP -> learning -> knowledge -> logical inference -> A.I.

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Thierry

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Re: What defines Human?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2017, 10:55:02 pm »
As this is a philosophical question, I will wax philosophically as an answer.
On a table are four items: A red ball, a blue cube, a striped ball, and a red cube with stripes. What defines the latter?

Do you mean what defines the latter among the 3 previous items ?

 


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