Is free will reproducible?

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Art

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2018, 03:17:38 pm »
Who's to say you're not?
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ivan.moony

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2018, 04:08:00 pm »
You have to admit, there are beautiful things in this world. On the other end, I've learned, even in the worst moments, things are not as bad as they could be. Things aren't always perfect, but it is always bearable, and there is always hope. I've seen some ugly times in my life, but thinking about them now, they weren't as bad as they theoretically could be. And that is not how I imagine theoretical Hell (in which I don't believe anyway).
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Freddy

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2018, 05:10:48 pm »
I think when you flip a coin, you create two universes: one for each possibility. So it's both deterministic and probabilistic.

Isn't this the multiverse theory ? In that every possibility is played out in some part of the multiverse ?

This means we've each already created AGI  :D

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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2018, 08:13:13 am »
It's like putting 100 mice in a 100 mazes. Some mazes have no air to breathe, some mazes are full of fire, some mazes are full of poison, some mazes have bits of cheese here and there. After a week, mice which are still alive wonder "How come I am in this maze". That's the cruel beauty of the multiverse.
Thinkbots are free, as in 'free will'.

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ranch vermin

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2018, 09:17:42 am »
beauty..  more like ugliness.

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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2018, 10:22:26 am »
Yeah. But our world has beauty too.
Thinkbots are free, as in 'free will'.

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Art

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2018, 02:06:15 pm »
In this case, Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder!

Think about it...to a barbarian, the slaughter of his enemies in battle is a beautiful thing.
To a King, knowing his daughter has given birth to a son is a beautiful thing.
To a witch, creating a perfect potion is a beautiful thing.
To a researcher in a lab, developing a wonder drug is a perfect thing.

And so on...and so on....
What might seem gruesome to some might well be beautiful to others.
It depends on which side of the fence one is on.

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8pla.net

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2018, 01:43:01 am »
Zero,

"free" can not be under the control of another or it is not free.
Reproducible is under the control of another, so it can not be free.
Can you write a computer program of free will under your control?
Virtual Free Will.


NOTE: My discussion is about A.I. and it is all in a friendly tone.
I am just reading your interesting topic carefully and thoroughly.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 02:04:22 am by 8pla.net »
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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2018, 09:51:02 am »
8pla.net, your posts are always polite, pleasant and interesting.

Humans give birth to other humans. We "reproduce" humans. And if humans have free will, this means we already can reproduce free will. So I don't think "free" and "reproducible" are mutually exclusive.

But my original question lacks precision: it should have been: can we reproduce free will in a computer?

This question is important, because only free will can make people understand that an engineered conscious being is really conscious, self-aware, alive.
Thinkbots are free, as in 'free will'.

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ivan.moony

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2018, 07:08:07 pm »
How about: one would *think* that he has a free will. But in the cruel reality underneath, he doesn't?

But it shouldn't be just a programmed answer: "I have a free will". It should be simulated somehow by hiding the truth, if nothing else. Who knows, maybe that could be a reason why we initially know nothing about ourselves - to have that valuable feeling of being free.
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Art

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2018, 09:21:43 pm »
@ Zero : "can we reproduce free will in a computer?"

To do what, exactly?
The very idea of free will is as convoluted as Artificial Intelligence.

Nothing is Free under the umbrella of computing, AI, robotics, etc., unless it might be advice.
Free Will is limited to humans as well. One can't yell fire in a theater or shopping mall (unless there really IS a fire).

Regarding computers, I'd have to ask, to what end? What purpose or what program might one be creating to run in this computer? A Chatbot? Nope.
Not Free. No matter what is written in a Computer is bound by the constraints of the programmer's / program's limitations. It is that invisible "force field" in which that program must operate. (Almost sounds like Rod Serling's Twilight Zone).

While the programmer might have the best of intentions the only thing that does come to mind might be those code jockeys, cretins, who write nefarious codes as trojans, rootkits, and all sorts of Virii and hijacking programs. In that case, they give their program free will within limits and therein lies the contradiction of Free Will itself. It is only tasked to perform a certain action, almost like humans in their daily work schedule. Like theirs, our Free Will is quite limited and rarely free.

Just my take...
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8pla.net

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2018, 01:49:40 am »
Zero said, "But my original question lacks precision..."
But, your question which (you say) lacked precision was original.
Originality is more important than precision, I think...
You proposed determinism may substitute for randomness on a computer.





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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 02:45:32 pm »
After WWII, a lot of german soldiers said "We had orders, I was just following orders".

I don't want an AGI that would "just follow the orders".
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Art

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2018, 03:39:42 pm »
It doesn't matter Zero...That's what soldiers or anyone else in the military does...they follow orders, no matter how inconsequential or ridiculous they might seem.
Same in most businesses (governments included). Everyone has a boss and within these organizations, there exists a "pecking order" or a large Flow Chart from Top Down according to importance or position. Everyone is expected to follow orders.

Now, getting back to your program. Let's say you want it to have the basics of mobility and the ability to learn and reason. Then you would set it free to explore anything and everything on its own.

Would that cover your intended project?

Otherwise, I'd think it should have some purpose, especially if it was so advanced and all-knowing.

Life without purpose isn't much of a life, to my way of thinking.
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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ivan.moony

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #44 on: January 11, 2018, 05:01:11 pm »
What if the purpose would be like making influences in our behavior?
Dream big. The bigger the dream is, the more beautiful place the world becomes.