A philosophical issue

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spydaz

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A philosophical issue
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2015, 07:47:27 am »
Im wondering ; I'm pondering; philosophising... Im praising god or not, I'm training , I'm studying, meditating on my existence?

I would expect all of these qualities to be components of self awareness ....

Do animals have these qualities , can machines and virtual humans? Or artificial intelligences...i would say that there is a scale of intelligence as well as a scale of self awareness ... (Yet to be determined)

At one point in our development, as children we become self aware... We consider 'what it would be like if I?'

Generating sentences and questions by an artificial intelligence can be relatively simple , yet creating questions which serve personal desire is not as the computer has no desires .... An emotion as well as a potential imperative, yet desires change as quickly as happy/sad , new knowledge implies?

As in some sci fi rogue computers are given a positive perspective on humankind to help them change their predictions about where mankind is heading ...

(Angry computers can be pig headed)

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Art

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2015, 10:14:48 am »
You basically said it..."I".

That's what it takes for the label "Self awareness" to apply.

Like the experiment several years ago when scientists put a chalk mark on an elephant's forehead then showed the elephant the reflection of itself in a mirror.
The elephant looked intently at it's own face, then it's trunk raised up and touched the chalk mark!
At that point, it was aware of it's own existence!

I think at some point in the future, these "intelligent" machines, androids, etc., might become entities unto themselves...a new type of "being"...self aware or not, to them it won't matter.

They will eventually become dominant!
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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spydaz

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A philosophical issue
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2015, 10:21:19 am »
The question of what makes me different to the next (out of the box) AI.... Or how can i be different other than by name or knowledge from the next Ai ...
These are artificial intelligence questions to ones self would begin to form ? Eventually who am i , it asks itself ?

(Secretly i knew elephants were self aware as when a member of the heard dies .. They all circle around the body and some even morn the loss, thats self aware and community awareness... Real intelligent and aware creatures ... The elephant touches the chalk-mark in its reflection knowing that somehow its appearance changed, i wonder how a dolphin would act.

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DemonRaven

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2015, 05:34:07 pm »
The question of what makes me different to the next (out of the box) AI.... Or how can i be different other than by name or knowledge from the next Ai ...
These are artificial intelligence questions to ones self would begin to form ? Eventually who am i , it asks itself ?

(Secretly i knew elephants were self aware as when a member of the heard dies .. They all circle around the body and some even morn the loss, thats self aware and community awareness... Real intelligent and aware creatures ... The elephant touches the chalk-mark in its reflection knowing that somehow its appearance changed, i wonder how a dolphin would act.

That depends on what kind of dolphin.  Orcas and Bottlenose Dolphins have been tested and have shown a measurable kind of self awareness. I could not find any information on other dolphin species but if i had to guess i would say that they all are pretty intelligent.


But as the author of the source i used stated the mirror test is not a great way to prove self awarness.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/10-animals-with-self-awareness.html

Quote
However, the mirror test is not bulletproof.

Despite their intelligence, almost all gorillas fail the mirror test because they deliberately avoid making eye contact; this is an aggressive gesture in their world. As a result, they don't afford themselves the opportunity for any kind of self-recognition. One exception is Koko the gorilla (see below).

What's more, animals who had previously failed the mirror test have begun to pass it under specific circumstances (see rhesus macaques, below). This suggests that we need alternative, more reliable methods search for animals with self awareness beyond the mirror scenario.

Which backs up what I was trying to say. Self awareness is a hard thing to measure. Especially since the behaviors you look for in the mirror test other animals do all the time. A more accurate way to test it would be to watch them in the wild when they get a drink of water on a smooth surface which reflects their image back at them.

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Zero

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2015, 09:06:29 pm »
However, "I" is not the first step. Young children have a phase during which they say their own name instead of "I".
(sorry, short answer because from cellphone)
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Art

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2015, 02:52:33 am »
Wonderful, so now you're splitting hairs. It was the overall concept of "I" not the actual word, Bill or Tracy or "me" or Zero!
"Me want ball or me want ice cream." 3rd person, "Billy want to play." I don't know of too many youngsters who refer to themselves in 3rd person.(nor many adults either).
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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Art

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2015, 03:00:21 am »

But as the author of the source i used stated the mirror test is not a great way to prove self awarness.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/10-animals-with-self-awareness.html

Well it seems that the author of your source is doing her best to Sell her Lucid Dreaming Course for the reduced price of only $49.00 $39.00 USD. So I'm trying to determine just how this makes her an authority on Self Awareness?

Heck, I've got a couple of chatbots who tell me that they are self aware. They "think", tell jokes, laugh, recognize sarcasm and sadness or pleasant remarks. So we see, the overall definitions of Self Aware, Intelligence and Sentience are still difficult to determine or qualify.

Not picking on you, just your author who's really more interested in promoting / selling her course that she's honed since she dreamed while being a 14 year old!
 ;)
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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DemonRaven

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2015, 07:32:33 am »
Whether or not she is a valid author is beside the  point. The mirror test has some obvious faults. For one thing dogs do not have the greatest eye sight and rely more on smell. So a mirror test would not be a good fit for them. Cats like wise do not see the same way we do. So it really does not matter anyone with a ounce of common sense knows that one size does not fit all and that includes tests.

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Zero

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2015, 10:30:42 am »
Wonderful, so now you're splitting hairs. It was the overall concept of "I" not the actual word, Bill or Tracy or "me" or Zero!
"Me want ball or me want ice cream." 3rd person, "Billy want to play." I don't know of too many youngsters who refer to themselves in 3rd person.(nor many adults either).
wow
ok
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ivan.moony

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2015, 03:31:37 pm »
can robots cry? It might be connected to "I".

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Zero

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2015, 08:53:28 pm »
I can cry.
And I was talking about the overall "I" concept too.
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ivan.moony

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Re: A philosophical issue
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2015, 09:13:31 pm »
Let's take a look at a concept of being fair. You compare yourself to another entity, you analyze "I" and "you". If it is too much difference, either you get ashamed, or you cry (which might be sometimes overriden with rage)

 


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