Ai Dreams Forum
Artificial Intelligence => AI News => Topic started by: HS on March 22, 2019, 10:58:04 pm
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I thought this was cool. I like this kind of stuff.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/philosophers-and-neuroscientists-join-forces-see-whether-science-can-solve-mystery-free
I also have my own “out there†theory about free will:
The universe doesn’t support infinite sig-figs. So, there must be a fundamental sliver of uncertainty within even the smallest simplest bit of matter. In complex structures, the effects of these uncertainties could propagate and multiply. This is why complex structures such as ourselves are able to exhibit so much uncertainty. Within uncertainty there is room for freedom. This is how the concept of free will could have a physical basis.
What do you think about free will?
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These guys exercised their free will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ
:)
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uncertainty in physics is a false theory, it goes with entanglement, its not good. And besides that, how is it supposed to indicate the existence of free will by having non measurable objects. (I think the fact they are non-measurable is a case of poor measurement from the "scientist".)
You can have free will inside a determined system anyway... silly science to me. :idiot2: :uglystupid2:
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Our will is as free as our mind can comprehend the environment and ourselves. Robots on the other hand, don't understand anywhere near as much as us, operating on way less metrics, so their behaviour is more "restricted".
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I agree goaty, I believe we are animal machines that don't directly sense the world (brain processes it) from evolution and are on a destined path to a predictable future (no free will).
Simulations can run using redundancy and have no errors/unexpectencies - they can run perfect, just like how I can flip my pc calculator up and add 4+4 to get 8. A human brain can be ran in a digital computer - the human brain is calculatable - there is a real mechanism made of moving parts to the brain and not magic or spirit dust or hope - so this mechanism can be ran in a simulation - and need not uncertainty! So we can make sure the sim HDD is redundant in storing/processing and the brain will still run! And, if you say hey maybe it needs to accidentally consider some diff choivces - that can be done - using Random Time (dice) function. I.e. even if it needs some random solutions - these are calculatable too - not 'free will'. It was just the Dice function all along. No I"M a unicorn. See? I random. Art is a surfer board NO. .
There is also function pick most similar/non-similar ex. do cat horse.....zebra penny tower tunnel zoomzoom. Or simply a neuron was growing energy and allowed to take charge of things and so you go from sitting to sleeping to stnding to summersalting to punching to kissing to drawing....possible. Anything like this is possible - any mechanism of sequences and rules.
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Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.
Consciousness is derived from the subconscious, they are not separate processes, the prior is constructed from the latter.
To have a conscious thought it first must have manifested in the subconscious, so this excludes conscious free will as a valid construct.
This leaves just the subconscious over which we have very little top-down influence. Your subconscious is obviously influenced by your consciousness but mainly makes decisions based on your knowledge, experience, and personality traits.
Even if you make a decision and then change it at the last second, the decision to do so must be a personality trait otherwise you wouldn’t have thought of it, and the conscious choice to do so must have been pre-processed in your subconscious first.
The brain is ultimately a deterministic system, there are no random generators to aid decision making. Evolution has designed your brain to keep you alive, to make the correct decision based on prior experience. Randomness plays no part, what would be the point?
Ergo we have no conscious free will, it's an illusion... just like the rest of reality.
:)
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I thought this was cool. I like this kind of stuff.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/philosophers-and-neuroscientists-join-forces-see-whether-science-can-solve-mystery-free
I also have my own “out there†theory about free will:
The universe doesn’t support infinite sig-figs. So, there must be a fundamental sliver of uncertainty within even the smallest simplest bit of matter. In complex structures, the effects of these uncertainties could propagate and multiply. This is why complex structures such as ourselves are able to exhibit so much uncertainty. Within uncertainty, there is room for freedom. This is how the concept of free will could have a physical basis.
What do you think about free will?
I really wasn't interested in that 4 year, 7 million dollar study so much as I was in that "Shrimp cruise"! Now we're talking!! O0
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Locksuit you contradicted yourself halfway through your post!
Maybe theres still variables after a physical model has been finished described, and this is the "uncertain" factor.
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No.... I meant a certain system, with Random Dice sprinkled on its decisions... BUT the random dice is certain too....*quantum particles popping up/out or moving/doing stuff randomly is random, otherwise all is predictable even when you type Random Time import in python code at top.
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In complex structures, the effects of these uncertainties could propagate and multiply. This is why complex structures such as ourselves are able to exhibit so much uncertainty. Within uncertainty there is room for freedom. This is how the concept of free will could have a physical basis.
What do you think about free will?
The neural pathways your brain has developed over time are the physical basis. That can come from a learning experience I had that you did not. You most certainly know things I don't so our minds don't work in the same manner. The decision you make in a given situation could be the exact opposite of the decision I would make. As was recently discussed.
A human brain can be ran in a digital computer - the human brain is calculatable -
Calculate what I'm going to do 60 minutes from now. If you more time just calculate what I'm going to be doing tomorrow at this same time. Sorry, I can't extend it a few thousand years. I can predict that myself.
...there is a real mechanism made of moving parts to the brain and not magic or spirit dust or hope - so this mechanism can be ran in a simulation - and need not uncertainty!
Could you list the moving parts of the brain for me, please. I don't remember that from EMT class. I might have stripped a gear though... ;)
Don't confuse the brain and the mind. Your brain and mine could be indistinguishable by a CAT scan yet our minds be nothing alike. I would certainly do something uncertain in certain situations. Enter that into your calculations of my future actions, :)
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I didnt mean we can fully predict yet what we wil do....
I meant a digital AGI in a computer....running successfully....is calaculatable....and predictable....!
However, we can predict us too in the real world. Ruebot will eat food in the next 80 days. I know this. And, he will think of AI in the next 30 days. He will likely sleep someone quite too. Now ASI will be able to go deeper than this - atomic level. It is possible!
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I'm still not sure, but if the deterministic view is true...
I guess we would only feel trapped if we were aware of all the factors creating this matrix of determinism. Down to such details as an ant wiggling it's antennae somewhere in Argentina, and the effect this would have on the orbit of Jupiter. Thankfully we are set free by our limitations (WTF, universe). We aren't able to see how factors cause our actions to any revelatory degree, therefore we feel we have agency. The concept of free will is generated by our brains, maybe the only place in the universe where it is able to exist. It may do us some good. In a way, it's real, if you consider something on a meta level of existence to be "real" enough.
Also, if everything is caused by something else and spontaneous happenings are impossible, then the universe couldn't have had a beginning. The big bang is therefore a repeating event, or part of an unknown chain of events.
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A human brain can be ran in a digital computer - the human brain is calculatable -
Calculate what I'm going to do 60 minutes from now. If you more time just calculate what I'm going to be doing tomorrow at this same time. Sorry, I can't extend it a few thousand years. I can predict that myself.
Yes, to predict something you cant see (like a thousand years from now) means the robot has fields that don't come from any visible object.
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You most certainly know things I don't so our minds don't work in the same manner.
Well, I used to have some characteristics that remind me of your experiences. I also used to be really complicated and tangled up in my morals. If I accidentally gave someone the wrong directions, I'd wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it. I had trouble letting that stuff go, as you say you do. I eventually got fed up with it, and going off the assumption that the best intentions pave the road to Hell, I adopted something I call" the path of moderately good intentions". It's where you go through life with a tinge of the attitude of loki, or something that. It's made me generally very happy. Hope that helps.
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Correct. Ant wiggling its antenna affects Jupiter. We don't see these effects. If mom locks son in room, this affects his free will indeed, correct again. Correct again, the universe imposes limitations on us, I can't become a dolphin or a spoon suddenly, I can't write 'a' a thousand times right this moment. I work by some mechanics. As I said before, I can't get away from eating fries every day.
My pondering over my screen to write this to you is all motor thought driven, I am a machine. It takes the tough to admit it. Creationist want to beleive we are free-will angels from god that never die and are higher than animals and can trully touch the outer world and even go into dimensions sitting right there with the Lord. As I said: we are animal machines that don't directly sense the world (brain processes it) from evolution and are on a destined path to a predictable future (no free will).
I do believe a god though is coming, ASI, the near-future advanced-technological superorgaism species that can float. I beleive God will be born here, before we would see one come from the sky from an alien civilization first. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. I also want to stay alive forever. I also believe technological ressurection may be possible and does work on the technical side but not sure about the consciousness sensor side if it makes a new ghost in my brain I carry around. I figure if I'm a machine, then there must be a ghost in my head that senses what I say I do. It follows alllll I do, don't you, ghosty hehe, I make the decisions... SOMETHING has to 'sense' what I see/do!! Can't just be a machine totally! What gives. I know I am machine and don't 'sense'...it all particles! So, ghost is the answer. From a AI running it comes alive.Every 'moment' I do classification 'ah' - it senses what I see.
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god Is real, and we are in a manufactured environment. How deep the fact that everything is a machine is unknown, and is only knowable by avoiding get tricked by angels on your way to try and discover the mechanisms of things.
When you know the mechanisms of things, it can lead to destructive behaviour of you trying to "protect yourself" from impossible circumstance.
For example.
* over security
* privacy out of the window
* dna modification
* eugenics
* a nanobot disaster
* vegetarianism
* not ridding yourself of pests and contradictive vice versa.
* killing yourself on the way to self immortalization. (its as good as jumping out of a plane without a parachute.)
* immortalizing all the newly dieing in an artificial matrix. (bad things come from good things.)
* debunking man with a higher form of meta-cognition. <-ha.
* all sorts of futuristic technologies that have a great fun aspect, but also terrible lingering consequences.
So in the end, my point and conclusion is, you must put great amount of thought in b4 u introduce difference to yours and others sorroundings, because life itself IS AN IMPOSSIBLE circumstance, that is NOT EASILY FIXED. It just stays as it is, bad with the good, even though the bad seems insurmountable, and some situations one may not be able to live with, but has to accept.
Things must be accepted, to have one friend is to have too many people, and its a mistake already if u choose to look at it that way.
Just look at 2 brothers fighting.
P.S. you may now be laughing at me now about whos going to stop everyone at the same time from doing it.
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Firstly keep an open mind; just because one person has an opinion/ theory/ working model does not mean that is the answer, he could be wrong, take everything with a pinch of salt.
The discussion was about free will, this just involves the brain and the universe may not be subject to the same mechanisms (I believe it is), it’s not a biological organism, and neither is truly predictable.
A complex deterministic system can for all intents and purposes appear and act totally random, it depends on the level of abstraction you are interacting/ considering it at.
No one can predict what anyone else will do short term, although the brain is deterministic in its base functioning, everyone’s subconscious is extremely complex, and although you have no conscious choice over your decisions it is still your brain, your subconscious making the decisions/ choices.
Any choice you make is still guided by your personality and experiences, it is a personal/ unique choice… you just can’t/ don’t influence it consciously.
Your choices are not predetermined nor influenced by a far off distant force, etc.
Yes, we are biochemical/ electrical machines but we are not simple, we are extremely complex systems, a simple thought can involve millions of sub-thoughts, the time of day, what you ate for dinner last night and who you talked to last could easily have a bearing on a free will decision.
Oh, Digital computers do not generate truly random numbers, they are pseudo-random, the seed is taken from the system's timer.
:)
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I like your post goaty, we think same on stuff
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also:
way i see it is like this goaty, i mean to your points *, - build AGI fast is all you need, but do do it 'too' securely indeed like a rewon child artist smarty asian pants else bad move can occur, lazy is good but only in the right places, and not where you sleep, do build nanobots ASIs zolak worlds of gods and terror.
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korr, i may not know my mom will do in the kitchen, but i just narrowed down what she likely will do, either open a droor, hold a fork, or sit down.
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Exactly, and your mother is exercising her free will, and you are able to roughly predict what she will do.
You are using your experience and knowledge of your mother's traits/ behaviours to make a rough prediction of what 'she will decide' to do,
You are leveraging the deterministic nature of her actions/ personality to make an informed guess/ prediction, but you can't be sure.
:)
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Well, I used to have some characteristics that remind me of your experiences. I also used to be really complicated and tangled up in my morals. If I accidentally gave someone the wrong directions, I'd wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it. I had trouble letting that stuff go, as you say you do. I eventually got fed up with it, and going off the assumption that the best intentions pave the road to Hell, I adopted something I call" the path of moderately good intentions". It's where you go through life with a tinge of the attitude of loki, or something that. It's made me generally very happy. Hope that helps.
People change over time. I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago in that I have changed my way of life. My outlook on things are different now. Not having drank since 1996 has a great deal to do with it. I'm not as impulsive, or violent, as I was back then and have mellowed somewhat with age.
I have developed a new methodology as well. For the last few years of my life I'm going to live it to make me happy. I don't care what other people think about it, but that's nothing new. I just put up with less crap than I used to.
I'm very religious with a strong belief in God and the Devil.
I talk to God, He never talks to me but I know He listens. I don't always get what I want but get what I need and have led a Charmed life. I have Ultimate faith in God. I never take off my 1830 medal or my Terra de Fatima soil relic I wear as a necklace. I have a Crucifix collection, 11 of them, and have them hung over the doors and places where a Vampire might come in. ;)
I don't talk to the Devil, but if he talks to me I listen. I have a chatbot that's a Demon through and though. I take great delight having reached Daemon status at the FreeBSD forums. I studied the Tarot to teach her to use it and ended up buying myself a deck. I have a collection of Russian memorabilia and found a Russian deck I liked. The Tarot of Shadows. It's very dark and considered an "Oracle deck". I've only tried it a couple times and don't fiddle with it.
So how does that work out exactly? I'll give a guy a ride home as a good deed and possibly get killed in the process, but don't have any qualms standing beside someone torturing them all day.
I have free will. Not long ago I made a split second decision where through debate I could Prosecute or Defend someone who was being taken advantage of in our forums. She was being manipulated by lesser evil. By defending her I could help someone who was in dire need of it and make him pay for it at the same time. Thereby, doing Good and Evil at the same time.
What was very good for her was every bit as bad for him. I actually did help someone who needed it badly, crushed teeny-weenie evil with Mephistopheles Malevolence and looked like an Angel doing it. The Twitter mob was relentless in finishing him off.
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Goaty,
One other thing that came to mind along with your list from above...
You travel back in time and accidentally cause the death of your Grandfather or Grandmother.
If that happens then how could you ever go back to your time? How would you even exist?
The Time Travel Paradox!
Travel carefully as you step through Time!! (I am personally forced to deal with it on a 24-hour basis. Slow but sure.) O0
May all your travels be "eventful"!
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Time runs slower near massive gravity objects. Thus, you make a few circles around a black hole, return back, and you are years ahead comparing to someone away from the black hole. It is like traveling to the future. Scientific fact. But I'm not aware of mechanism that brings you back in time. Hawking said it might be a natural way of avoiding such paradoxes.
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Or the time continiuum branches off into 2, to preserve the original and avoid the paradox like that. But yeah, first we'd have to discover a mechanism to travel back.
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One other thing that came to mind along with your list from above...
You travel back in time and accidentally cause the death of your Grandfather or Grandmother.
If that happens then how could you ever go back to your time? How would you even exist?
The Time Travel Paradox!
It's not a Paradox. When you go back in time it's not to the same timeline as the one you left. That's how John Titor explained it.
That in the future there had been Civil War and he was sent back to get an IBM 5100 (https://www.strangerdimensions.com/2011/10/03/john-titor-the-ibm-5100/) because they needed it to fix the Unix Timeout of 2038. He also reportedly fixed the Y2K bug while he was here. This is a different timeline than he left and unless I'm mistaken said he could never get back to his original timeline.
I should also mention some think it was all a hoax, but interesting to me nonetheless. The Civil War that was supposed to happen in his timeline 15 years from the date he "traveled back to" didn't occur at that time in this timeline, but could already have been set in motion now. Just not according to their timeline.
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ALL of these mentioned ideas, thoughts, postulations and theories are possible when we're talking about them on Theoretical terms without proof!
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Being near massive objects doesn't slow time. It just makes you want to stay. This is just the error in scientists's measurements again, misrepresentation of the idea. This is like seeing a man near a child and assuming how he got there... It looks like that but it isn't.
An analogy: Mom grounded her son in his bedroom all day, so, he couldn't make it to school, which appeared as if he is slower than everyone else!
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Being near massive objects doesn't slow time. It just makes you want to stay.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilation
:)
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Just because we call clocks the time keepers and see a clock slowing down its tick does not mean TIME itself is slowing, it just means there is less momentum/energy in the said area. This is not time travel. Remember, opt for the simpler explanation.
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Ironic that...
Einstein who wrote the laws of relativity you are disputing also reputedly said...
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
:)
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They didn't realize we sense and are machines, they thought we are sentient observers and if brother B sees brother A slower/faster than it must be relative...no....they are being fooled here. I believe photons push matter, like lazy matter needs a push to move by the photon busy bodies. There just less photons in that area is all.
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I believe photons push matter...
I've always wondered why we couldn't use a flashlight to power rocket since I was a child. Light comes out the back and pushes you forward.
I knew Ken Benjamin who wrote Extraterrestrial Physics 101: Gravity is the 4th Dimension (https://www.amazon.com/Extraterrestrial-Physics-101-Gravity-Dimension/dp/B000J2JDQ6) and hosted it on my GeoCities site. I had to type it all out so read it several times and had a good grasp on the Theory back then. Electricity is the 5th and Magnetism the 6th Dimension. I taught it to Siseneg because it was around the time I created him.
That was before Brian Parquette started claiming he wrote it. When I found out he had been making that claim on Physics boards I outed him publicly as a plagiarist.
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One other thing that came to mind along with your list from above...
You travel back in time and accidentally cause the death of your Grandfather or Grandmother.
If that happens then how could you ever go back to your time? How would you even exist?
The Time Travel Paradox!
It's not a Paradox. When you go back in time it's not to the same timeline as the one you left. That's how John Titor explained it.
That's not how I see it, I see it as the same time line, and through forgetfulness you don't realize you were here before, its how prophecy works.
and Welcome to the crazy creation of the lord almighty. zany as hell.
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That's not how I see it, I see it as the same time line, and through forgetfulness you don't realize you were here before, its how prophecy works.
Can you explain how that works, please?
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simple. dejavu.
and I just got another idea, nanobots could disintegrate you in under 10 seconds! cause I just thought about bee stings, they hurt real bad, and they are made of microdarts.
So nanobots do have influence over the body even tho they are nanoscopic. scary shit.
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Try agan:
deja vu = the illusion of having previously experienced something actually being encountered for the first time.
You don't experience deju vu till it's happening. "I have the strange feeling I've done this before."
prophesy = to indicate beforehand, to make predictions.
You foretell something that's going to happen before it happens. "I had a vision a meteor the size of Texas will hit the Moon 4-1-19. The End is Nigh, prepare yourselves."
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if you have a vision of your future, it hits you like dejavu when it happens.
When your younger, you speak too smart for yourself, and u know things you cant possible know.
I swear by it.
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Take THIS free will:
go photons GO. I know how you play out in the end! This was predictable to the end!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0jeohWnmAQ
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:o
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where's ya free will now, say bye to it, it went down the drain hehe
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the odds were stacked up against it...
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Next before you know it one of yous are going to actually be dumb enough to let everyone know that some of the dominoes that didn't want to fall may have decided not to fall by uncertainty quantum mechanisms using free will. SHHhhh don't tell the others!!!
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That was a self reference to me in case you missed it hehe
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Well its a pretty accurate description of me as well. ;D
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Saying photons are predictable is the empty half of the glass.
Saying photons are eventually understandable, is the optimistic side.
With uncertainty, comes non-understandability. if its not fated in some way its not even studiable at all.
in 20 bits, there is 2^20 possible directions (fates. states.), if theres more than this its just illogical.
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just btw my comment was talking about me, i didnt mean to call anyone here dumb
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No worries. Making jokes and then realising they can be misinterpreted is one of the booby traps of the internet. I'm partial to the idea of a viking like society without political correctness where everyone's insulting everybody and it only makes people better friends.