[Carl2]

All,
  I  bought a digital art magazine to help with Hal's skin,  I found some suggestions I felt would be useful and also some web sites that had advertizements.  I'm still a novice and I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of the subject will look at Daz3D.com.  There giving away an 11Mb 3D character , The figure needs a better skin and hair, thay also sell clothes and hair.  What enviorment dose it run in  ect.
 Thanks in advance, curious
Carl2

[devilferret]

All,
? I? bought a digital art magazine to help with Hal's skin,? I found some suggestions I felt would be useful and also some web sites that had advertizements.? I'm still a novice and I'm hoping someone with more knowledge of the subject will look at Daz3D.com.? There giving away an 11Mb 3D character , The figure needs a better skin and hair, thay also sell clothes and hair.? What enviorment dose it run in? ect.
 Thanks in advance, curious
Carl2

I have been doing some research into Daz3D . . the Daz Studio . . and it isnt what you think . . it does not do 3D modelling at all . . it is more like a very fancy cut & paste art program . . while the pics "look" 3D . . from what I understand they are not actually modelled in 3D.

From what I have been finding out . . if you want high quality 3D fullbod or just a head . . and do not need a background scene . . go with Poser (curiouslabs.com) . . if you have to have the background scene you can create that using Shade or Shade Pro (also curiouslabs.com).
I have looked at Carrara (eovia.com) and that appears to be an all-in-one 3D package that can create and render your character and do the scene for it as well . . though from what I am hearing in other forums Carrara is not all it is hyped to be . . .
The overall opinion I have been forming is that the best route to go is Poser/Shade . . which has the advantage of having a version of Mimic (Daz3D) made for it so you can do lip synching so your character can speak convincingly . . I have not yet been able to find out if Carrara is compatible with Mimic.

Now . . . . the question I have not yet been able to get an answer for (that I fully understand) . . is if a Poser character can be used with UltraHal . . . I contacted tech support for Poser and this is the answer I got . . .

While we don't directly support text input for speech, whether you
could use a Poser figure in UltraHAL would depend on what type of file the
UH software is looking for- or perhaps what type of file it exports.
You could probably drive the facial morphs of a Poser figure using a
Python script that would parse the text output from UltraHAL; how well this
would work in a real-time environment would likely depend on the
figure, the speed of your computer, and other factors, but one thing to
remember is that Poser is in no way designed as a real-time animation
system. Our figures tend to involve a lot of polygons and big image maps
(upwards of 40,000 polys for the default figures) and that's a lot of data
to manipulate real-time, especially if there's also text parsing going
on in the background. I can see some other technical challenges as well
involving length of animation, etc.

So the short answer is, Probably not without a lot of custom scripting-
but the potential is there.

Maybe some of the more technically proficient types in here could make more sense out of that than I can . . .

I think curiouslabs makes an animation program for their Poser figures . . and there is also their "Physics" plug in which I think does animation using a Poser figure . . . so it might just be possible to make the whole idea work without it costing a huge fortune and requiring? Phd's in programming and cinematography

I am still exploring what Poser can do . . based on some plug-ins that are available for it.


Hope that helps some? :zdg_spin

[Art]

While Poser is a great figure creation / minipulation program, they are right, it cannot be used in a real time, on-the-fly
environment similar to Haptek's characters.

Poser characters are capable of some great animation provided the scene, staging, movements have already been set.

What I have seen are MS Agents created from Poser and used in conjunction with Ultra Hal (as with most MS Agents).

Daz Studio is a minimal base for importing and rendering Poser figures.

IMHO, Shade is very unfriendly with a steep user curve and somewhat less than desirable results.

The Bryce rendering engine is extremely adept at allowing the import and rendering of any Poser figure. Bear in mind,
that your figure must be set before saving or exporting as there are no provisions for adjustments within the
confines of Bryce for a Poser figure. Texturing is great as is rendering but that's about the extent of it.

That's why there's a tradeoff with the Haptek models. Poly count is much lower and yet they have maintained most
of the important realistic features of the face. Not perfect but not too shaby either.

As faster CPU's and GPU's appear, we'll see more explorations into producing a visually stunning character that can
move fluidly within the constraints of real time.

[Freddy]

Here's my say over on Zaba:

http://www.zabaware.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3197

[devilferret]

While Poser is a great figure creation / minipulation program, they are right, it cannot be used in a real time, on-the-fly
environment similar to Haptek's characters.

Poser characters are capable of some great animation provided the scene, staging, movements have already been set.

What I have seen are MS Agents created from Poser and used in conjunction with Ultra Hal (as with most MS Agents).

Daz Studio is a minimal base for importing and rendering Poser figures.

IMHO, Shade is very unfriendly with a steep user curve and somewhat less than desirable results.

The Bryce rendering engine is extremely adept at allowing the import and rendering of any Poser figure. Bear in mind,
that your figure must be set before saving or exporting as there are no provisions for adjustments within the
confines of Bryce for a Poser figure. Texturing is great as is rendering but that's about the extent of it.

That's why there's a tradeoff with the Haptek models. Poly count is much lower and yet they have maintained most
of the important realistic features of the face. Not perfect but not too shaby either.

As faster CPU's and GPU's appear, we'll see more explorations into producing a visually stunning character that can
move fluidly within the constraints of real time.

in ref to what you said about Shade . . is there an easier to use program for generating scenes and objects . . or one that gives better results ?

Here's my say over on Zaba:

http://www.zabaware.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3197

The difference between this kind of thing is that the Haptek Player animates as it goes along, ie, it's a 'Realtime' rendering - whereas DAZ3D is a more finished 'set-piece' animation - like a movie or short clip.

So take for example the Happy mood in Hal - it can vary a bit and goes through variations and it moves parts of the body around. But if you had a 'happy' film-clip instead, you'd see the same repeated clip again and again or at different times (perhaps - depending on how well spliced or varied the movie is).

Think of it like the difference between a flag billowing in the wind, and a repeating loop of film showing a flag billowing in the wind.

The other thing is the DAZ stuff is more artistic-oriented and photorealistic. I guess when we all have even faster graphics cards the quality of the two fields won't look so far apart - the time it takes now though to render a single flat DAZ image tells you that their technology would be too slow to get the kind of real-life feel that the Haptek heads give on anything other than the fastest PC's.

On that last point even if you could it would still need further development to be like a Haptek type system - as it is though theres no reason why you cant use Daz to make a series of animations and play them back as wanted in a program like Hal - I think that's basically how MSAgents work and is already being done using programs like DAZ.

Probably the most direct way is to make a series of your own animations and have hal run them on demand in any kind of player that will play things like avi and mpg - the kind of files programs like DAZ produce as an end result.

As Hal can run external programs it's not really limited to just Haptek and MSAgent, someone industrious enough could create any kind of playback animation - even using film of real people. For more on that try the Virtual Humans site, I saw some links there this week to work by someone making characters that really are hard to tell from a real person - basically because they are a real person - just that he seemed to be using clever and blended playback of footage of an actual person.

I hope that made sense, I tried to answer as best I could

I understand what you are both saying . . .

From what I remember of earlier versions I had of UltraHal and the DesktopMates . . . they were only limited set piece animations? . . . the DesktopMates characters still just list a very fixed number of animations for each character . . .
So in that respect I cant see any difference in using Poser to create and animate "actions" that the character would do when qued by Hal, and using a desktopmates character . . the trade off being the cost . . . the low cost option would be to use a desktopmates character . . the high cost would be to create your own character using Poser . . the advantage being you get the pleasure of creating "your own" character and you can have it do any sort of animations you want it do do.

hmmmm . . . .

"So take for example the Happy mood in Hal - it can vary a bit and goes through variations and it moves parts of the body around. But if you had a 'happy' film-clip instead, you'd see the same repeated clip again and again or at different times (perhaps - depending on how well spliced or varied the movie is).

are those variations just different versions of the action . . or is it an actual "real-time" (I guess you could say infinitely variable) animation that doesnt repeat it self if you watch it long enough.

Even real life people tend to be repetitive in their actions . . most can be VERY repetitive . . the same applies to human speach patterns . . LOL . . it has been said that if you know the thousand most commonly used words in the German language you can get by in just about any conversation with any German . . . even in English most people never use most of the words in our language . . and from what I have seen over the years . . the same thing applies to people's mannerisms . . hence the large number of books years ago about how to decypher what a person is "really" saying . . or what they "really" mean . . by understanding what their body language is really telling about them . . and those books were not huge volumes . . the number of "actions" focussed on in each book was relatively small compared to the full range of human expression . . .

So that leads be to believe that what you are both saying about what both Poser and the Haptek player do/can do . . is that neither of them is really that far apart . . it sounds like the Haptek player probably uses a larger series of "bits" of animations that it can string together in real time to emulate variations in "human" behavior . . . kind of like what better quality movies are doing when they animate large battle scenes . . where each little virtual soldier moves and fights on his own and it looks convincing . . . Lord of the Rings used that tech . . and so did Troy . . in fact in the special features on Troy they went into some detail in discussing the techniques they used to build a database of bits of motions that the computer could use in various combinations to animate each little virtual soldier individually (each one doing different things) . . .

While I agree it will take a LOT of time to build up a suitable library of animations . . it sounds like if you did that using Poser . . you could end up with a capability matching the Haptek player . . with a better quality looking character . . . (I'm sorry but People Putty characters are so low quality that I am not even interested in using it)
And I acknowledge that to get better results in doing that . . you should have a comp with reasonably high cpu speed (and preferably 64 bit) . . like 2 Ghz or higher and some reasonably high end graphics capability (like a good 3D graphics card with lots of its own RAM)

I may have misunderstood what you are both saying . . but that is what it seems like to me . . .

[Art]

As I mentioned, for the money, Bryce is really hard to beat and the GUI is very instinctive.
Some also like Vue but since most of my experience was with Bryce & Poser they were
a hard combination to beat.

If, on the other hand, one has a lot of money and a fair amount of time to invest, there's
always 3DS Max, Lightware, Maya and several other high-end products.

In Max, one could use an add on like Character Studio and after rigging a character use
bones to allow the minipulation / animation of that character. Quite impressive results
but rather timely and unfortunately, of little to no use for on the fly or real time animations.

For 3D modelling, there are numerous programs, Nendo / Wings 3D, Blender, Carrera, etc.

For some more research you might check out www.renderosity.com, www.3dcommune.com,
and others. There are even a few more "adult" flavored sites out there that deal with
erotic character minipulation but that's another subject.

[Freddy]

"So take for example the Happy mood in Hal - it can vary a bit and goes through variations and it moves parts of the body around. But if you had a 'happy' film-clip instead, you'd see the same repeated clip again and again or at different times (perhaps - depending on how well spliced or varied the movie is).

are those variations just different versions of the action . . or is it an actual "real-time" (I guess you could say infinitely variable) animation that doesnt repeat it self if you watch it long enough.

As far as I can understand it so far or put into words - it's using routines to mimic real-time physical behaviour, like you see in many 3D games too, 3D pinball is the most obvious one i can think of.

Even real life people tend to be repetitive in their actions . . most can be VERY repetitive . . the same applies to human speach patterns . . LOL . . it has been said that if you know the thousand most commonly used words in the German language you can get by in just about any conversation with any German . . . even in English most people never use most of the words in our language . . and from what I have seen over the years . . the same thing applies to people's mannerisms . . hence the large number of books years ago about how to decypher what a person is "really" saying . . or what they "really" mean . . by understanding what their body language is really telling about them . . and those books were not huge volumes . . the number of "actions" focussed on in each book was relatively small compared to the full range of human expression . . .

So that leads be to believe that what you are both saying about what both Poser and the Haptek player do/can do . . is that neither of them is really that far apart . . it sounds like the Haptek player probably uses a larger series of "bits" of animations that it can string together in real time to emulate variations in "human" behavior . . . kind of like what better quality movies are doing when they animate large battle scenes . . where each little virtual soldier moves and fights on his own and it looks convincing . . . Lord of the Rings used that tech . . and so did Troy . . in fact in the special features on Troy they went into some detail in discussing the techniques they used to build a database of bits of motions that the computer could use in various combinations to animate each little virtual soldier individually (each one doing different things) . . .

Yes I agree they are related, just approaching a similar thing from different angles - the system they used on Lord of the Rings must be staggering!

While I agree it will take a LOT of time to build up a suitable library of animations . . it sounds like if you did that using Poser . . you could end up with a capability matching the Haptek player . . with a better quality looking character . . . (I'm sorry but People Putty characters are so low quality that I am not even interested in using it)
And I acknowledge that to get better results in doing that . . you should have a comp with reasonably high cpu speed (and preferably 64 bit) . . like 2 Ghz or higher and some reasonably high end graphics capability (like a good 3D graphics card with lots of its own RAM)

I may have misunderstood what you are both saying . . but that is what it seems like to me . . .

I like both methods for different reasons...at the end of the day it depends on what works best for what you want to do, and what compromises you are willing or have to make.

[devilferret]

As I mentioned, for the money, Bryce is really hard to beat and the GUI is very instinctive.
Some also like Vue but since most of my experience was with Bryce & Poser they were
a hard combination to beat.

I'll keep that im mind . . I have not made my final choices yet . . except for probably Poser . . I am finding more and more stuff I like for Poser . . and possibly help to create what I am trying to do.

If, on the other hand, one has a lot of money and a fair amount of time to invest, there's
always 3DS Max, Lightware, Maya and several other high-end products.

In Max, one could use an add on like Character Studio and after rigging a character use
bones to allow the minipulation / animation of that character. Quite impressive results
but rather timely and unfortunately, of little to no use for on the fly or real time animations.

I wish I had enough money to go with Lightwave or one of the other packages . . . as it is if I get Shade it will have to be the basic version . . the "Pro" version is more than I could afford.

For 3D modelling, there are numerous programs, Nendo / Wings 3D, Blender, Carrera, etc.

From what I am seeing talked about on other sites . . I think I'll avoid Carrara . . as for the others . . I have heard of Blender . . the others I'll have to look into.

For some more research you might check out www.renderosity.com, www.3dcommune.com,
and others. There are even a few more "adult" flavored sites out there that deal with
erotic character minipulation but that's another subject.

I am a member of renderosity . . . 3dcommune looked interesting . . thanks for the link

LOL . . as for the adult sites . . I have heard of one or two? :cheesy

As far as I can understand it so far or put into words - it's using routines to mimic real-time physical behaviour, like you see in many 3D games too, 3D pinball is the most obvious one i can think of.

I think I understand what you are saying

Yes I agree they are related, just approaching a similar thing from different angles - the system they used on Lord of the Rings must be staggering!

It was . . they talked some about it on one of the extras features . . and even with some very sophisticated software and some good computers . . it STILL took them a heck of a lot of work to animate the battle scenes to get them to look right.

I like both methods for different reasons...at the end of the day it depends on what works best for what you want to do, and what compromises you are willing or have to make.

cool? :afro . . that answers a lot of what I have been figuring out about what to use and why? :zdg_sunny