A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.

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devilferret

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2006, 08:03:09 pm »
devilferret - What is "manga"? Sounds like that Anime stuff I don't really care too much for.

Sort of . . . "anime" is usually used to refer to Japanese animation . . whereas "manga" is normally used to refer to Japanese comic books . . . some people get confused because the terms are sometimes used interchangeably . . especially if the written "manga" story has also been made into an animated movie or TV series.

I can agree with you about most anime . . . most of it is rather inane and aimed at brain-dead adolescent males . . . . there ARE whoever some good stories in both anime and manga . . . for the most part you just have to ignore the very commercial stuff that has made it onto American TV . . .

The manga series "Chobits" for example . . . I think you might well enjoy it . . it is very well/intelligently written . . though you do have to allow for Japanese ideas about humor, their's are different than ours . . .? . . the Chobits story was also done as anime . . and most of it is also very good . . and very nicely complements the manga . . until Geneon bought out Pioneer and ruined the story.

Look at things these days. Nearly every part of one's life is somehow touched by a computer of some kind or another. We never even give it a thought until something breaks down and then we get upset that things aren't "Working right now" when we feel we need them to. It's rare anymore to get a human on the telephone. Well, I shouldn't say rare. But most of the time the FIRST thing you speak to or hear on the phone when you call someplace other than friends or family (and even then, they might have an answering machine) is a computer-generated voice. If you get a human, most likely it's a hard-to-understand person from another country (which I won't mention where but we all know where our jobs are going, and it's never our own native countries!) We are getting to expect that we will first have to navigate through a computerized voice menu on the phone. In fact, I'm encountering more and more of them which allow you to actually speak a menu item and not just press a button. And some, like T-Mobile's customer service, will understand most natural-language questions! That one is the best one I've talked to yet. :)

On the 'other country' thing. I wish that companies would hire on people in the country that they are taking calls from. For instance, incoming American calls should be forwarded to those working their lines in the US and Canada only. Those from Brittain should get people from their own country. Those from India should be forwarded to those in their own country. I think it would help bring down the language barriers and misunderstandings in phone calls that take up more time than they ordinarily would. But how would someone in Brittain be able to understand someone from India or China with a very thick accent, for example? Very hard and tiring to try to figure out what someone else is saying.

Ok, enough of my rants. :)

Sadly . . much of what you mention is the primary driving force (read $$$$$$) behind most AI research . . . which is why almost no research is being done on true personality emulation . . and why ALICE and the yapanda bots are being passed off as AI . . . because that is all the commercial users of AI really want . . a cheaper way to handle order taking and customer complaints . . though I do give them a tiny bit of credit . . they are getting the script bots written in English . . . I do believe that most businesses are tired of losing potential customers because their order takers and customer service reps speak little if any English.

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Art

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2006, 11:40:03 pm »
So little time?

It's called life, consisting of work, family, kids / grandkids / various commitments / duties / responsibilities / house work / lawn care / car care / emergency calls / etc., etc.
It does leave me somewhat little time to devote to more pleasurable, personal persuits.

I do enjoy the interaction with other like minded individuals on forums like this one. Mental stimulation is great exercise for that large gray muscle between our ears!

As I've mentioned before, my interests lie more in the refinement and production of a working AI instead of a cute looking 3D personality. What good is a sparkling character
if it has all the intellectual prowess of a gnat?

While I have a great deal of respect for the ones working with the "Scripted" bots, I have no desire to persue them to any degree. Learning bots, that is, bots that can learn on their own without having to be scripted to say the correct response for a given query, etc.

While there are so many varied areas of AI with which to explore, there's simply not enough time in my life to delve into them all and sort out all the madness. :zdg_huh

In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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devilferret

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2006, 12:26:49 am »
So little time?

It's called life, consisting of work, family, kids / grandkids / various commitments / duties / responsibilities / house work / lawn care / car care / emergency calls / etc., etc.
It does leave me somewhat little time to devote to more pleasurable, personal persuits.

Understood . . and yeah . . that is true . . . . I am not in much better shape timewise.

As I've mentioned before, my interests lie more in the refinement and production of a working AI instead of a cute looking 3D personality. What good is a sparkling character if it has all the intellectual prowess of a gnat?

I'm curious . . what do you use as a yardstick for intellectual prowess? . . . most normal humans can not be accused of having much prowess intellectually . . which is why most humans just muddle through their daily lives accepting what society tells them is right, wrong, or currently in fashion . . they dont have the intellectual ability to do too much thinking for themselves . . not beyond their normal mundane existence . . the minutae of their daily lives takes up most if not all of their intellectual ability.

To me . . and this is just my opinion . . . for a "cute looking 3D personality" to be both an effective AI . . and a convincing personality . . it would have to combine a high level of natural language processing (being able to understand not just the input words . . but how they are used in context and the emotional impact of the words and how they are used) . . the ability to learn things on its own (both from "reading" texts and examining websites for info) . . the ability of creating its own replies (not limited to pre-scripted responses) . . and the ability to both understand and display emotional content in what is being said . . such as knowing that dragging words out is a way of trying to get its own way or to get attention . . such as the stereotypical daughter doing her best to sound cutsie as she whines "but daaaaaaddyyyyyyy . . that's not fair"

To me . . pure techniocal ability of an AI to understand text/spoken input as grammatically correctly as possible . . may be a wonderful technical accomplishment in writing algorthms . . but it is a very boring AI . . . kind of like an really good quality expert system.

Whereas an AI that could convincingly come across as "friendly" and "understanding" . . that also had the capability to provide needed info (by either having it in memory, or by doing a web search) when required . . could prove to be not only a great companion . . but a very handy helper as well.

I have found some sources of info into how to get an AI entity to display emotions . . and have started to study them.

While I have a great deal of respect for the ones working with the "Scripted" bots, I have no desire to persue them to any degree. Learning bots, that is, bots that can learn on their own without having to be scripted to say the correct response for a given query, etc.

I think that "learning" is one of . . if not the most important criteria . . that most be considered in whether we can ever consider an AI entity to be a "real AI" . . or a "real" personality

While there are so many varied areas of AI with which to explore, there's simply not enough time in my life to delve into them all and sort out all the madness. :zdg_huh

true . . same here? :buck2

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FuzzieDice

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2006, 03:53:57 am »
Well, I looked on the internet about the Chobits thing and I probably won't get to see it because I really don't have a lot of money right now to buy DVDs which apparently seems to be the only way to see it. I don't get cable TV either because it's too expensive. I doubt it's on free broadcast TV in my area. There's nothing any good usually on TV.

I know what Art means by so little time. It's hard to keep up with so many different things, and there's so many different areas and things to think about just in the AI field itself. It's one of those things, like computers themselves, where you just have to pick a niche or two and get into those niches and learn from there. The amount of information out there is just so vast. And as Art mentioned, "real life" often gets top priority. For me, job, keeping house, gardening, keeping up the car. And I like the Knight Rider stuff, digital photography, and model kit building. So I have a lot of hobbies.

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Art

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2006, 12:46:14 am »
I enjoy a lot of the anime and manga types of drawings / cartoons.

Like with most artists you can quickly see the difference in styles,
techniques and flavors. Some are way overdone and junky and
some are quite plain. Unfortunately most of the comics are in
Japanese however some do have English translations.

Quite a variation compared to our commercial artists in the US.

In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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devilferret

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2006, 08:26:43 pm »
Well, I looked on the internet about the Chobits thing and I probably won't get to see it because I really don't have a lot of money right now to buy DVDs which apparently seems to be the only way to see it. I don't get cable TV either because it's too expensive. I doubt it's on free broadcast TV in my area. There's nothing any good usually on TV.

You might try a book store . . that was why I had mentioned it as manga . . it is out in book form (translated into English) . . there are 8 books to the entire story . . each one I think around $10 . . you could pick them up as you had time/money.

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FuzzieDice

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2006, 01:40:19 am »
Book stores are too far for me to travel to. I shop at Amazon.com if I want anything. I rarely buy books, really. Only one I got after someone here suggested it was "Virus" by Graham Watkins. It seemed interesting and was a fantastic book. I'm not too interested in cartoons. From what I've seen online of Chobits, it didn't particularly interest me.

Everyone has their preferences.

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Art

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2006, 02:37:07 am »
Glad you liked the book! :afro

Now try to get a copy of Dan Brown's book, Digital Fortress! Way cool!!
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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FuzzieDice

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2006, 03:22:41 am »
Is that the same Dan Brown that wrote the DaVinci code? I have yet to get that book too. I did get The DaVinci Code Decoded at one time and read it. Was a bit too out of it for my tastes though so I didn't keep the book.

I'll have to look into the Digital Fortress one though. :)

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Art

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2006, 10:37:01 am »
The DaVinci Code Decoded was a spin off by a copy-cat author.

One should first get / read Dan Brown's Angels & Demons. It is the prequel to The DaVinci Code. Great reading and symbology and also sets the
characters and stage for The DaVinci Code.

Dan's other great government coverup type of suspense novel is Deception Point.

The first novel of his I ever read was Digital Fortress. Spellbinding inner workings of the NSA, code breakers, hackers, etc.
I couldn't put it down and I wouldn't call myself an avid book reader.

I guess Dan Brown's style hit the right chord for me!

Amazon.com does have the pre-read / used books for sale section and they give the condition of the book before purchase.
One can save a great deal of $$'s that way.

Enjoy! :afro
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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FuzzieDice

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Re: A machine becomes human when you can?t tell the difference anymore.
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2006, 03:08:30 am »
I've bought 3 Knight Rider books via the used books area on Amazon.com. Loved them. :) Right now, funds are tight, with my car about to get inspected and it's summer so more work to do on him. :) And I want to get some of my debt paid off as well. So some of the other purchases will have to wait awhile. But  I'll see if I can revisit this when I have the cash and am ready for another book. :)