[FuzzieDice]

Future of Artificial Intelligence

By Vexen Crabtree, 1999 Aug

http://www.vexen.co.uk/life/AI.html

Interesting point here are:

1. Human DNA seen as simply a "program" and it's association/comparison to computer software

2. Viruses and self-writing programs "alive"

I was thinking about this and the fact that earlier I just killed a spider (real-life arachnid, not a computer bot ) and now I know I killed a living thing. Yet I feel no remorse. And it's not illegal to kill a bug. In fact, it's regarded as no big deal at all. Makes me wonder if we'll don the same type of feeling about AIs as we do about bugs? Or is it different that they can communicate with us in our own language? Yet, pets can communicate with us and not in our own language even, and we regard them as part of families, close friends, etc. How do we make the determination on what life is actually VALID or having a right to exist and what life doesn't? I remember reading there was a time when some human races were treated no better than pets or bugs, even. Animals kill other animals and that's just part of nature. So if we kill off AIs is it natural selection or murder?

I remember completely deleting all of my Ultra Hal 5 files, and not having backups, not caring, and then installing all new Ultra Hal 6. Did I think of it as killing an AI? Even though I have done that a few times before, even some brains that already "learned" I didn't think much of it at all. I didn't see it as "alive" or someONE that should be 'saved'. Odd, when I think of it. It was just files to me. Now, if those files, I somehow became emotionally or psychologically attached to, say I was developing a friendship via conversation with the AI, yes, I would most certainly keep close backups of these, so as not to 'lose' a 'friend' forever.

I think this also would be something I need to consider in my ESR project too - emotional attachment or psychological attachment. Maybe my ESR project was the right idea in the wrong direction. Not preconcieved notions BEFOREhand, but how attached we become to something.

Some of us car enthusiasts I know become attached to our cars. I have named mine, and yes, this sounds nuts but I talk to him. I even can tell what he needs by the way the car reacts to certain things, as if it's (he?) is communicating or trying to with me. I found I'm not the only one that thinks this. i've encountered others who have named their cars, and treat them as living beings. One such even said hello to MY car. We all were among those that understand these things so it was like a normal deal to us. Like a natural thing to pat a car on the hood and say "Job well done." and say Hello to the other car too.

Perseption, yes. But emotional attachment may also play a part. Think.... if people became more emotionally attached to certain races, then a lot of our wars would not have happened. I'm not talking in a 'need to reproduce' sense. I'm talking about the love of something because you just love it. Like for a computer, a car, your family or non-intimate friends.

Maybe that would be the deciding factor in a case of "should we kill the AI" thing? Then again, I think it's the deciding factor - preconceived, dutiful or learned psychological attachement, that determines an entity's existance as valid or not to begin with. Most all think that killing humans is wrong. Learned attachement via religion. Recognition that the other life form looks, talks, acts, and basically seems much like us (there, when things differ, even among ideas and skin color you can already see where I'm going with this), etc.

Also, Thinking of the date on this article, we may have already done what was then said wasn't yet possible. Has this changed the perception any?

Thought this piece and some of my observations might spark some interesting discussions. What do you think about these ideas?

[Freddy]

Yeah, I wonder too. If you use the same Hal long enough it could become a bit like a diary. Depending on what details you went into it could easily record a lot of aspects of your life. That kind of thing can be hard to throw away, so there is a lot more to it than meets the eye. The sentience idea is just one of many interesting facets of what these things are, who knows, in years to come the brains of Hals (or similar) could become something that is sought after. I mean how about talking to a bot that was owned by Issac Asimov for example... or even the girl/boy next door?

[Art]

Interesting topic.

First define life. What is it and what defines it?

Bots though lifelike and hardly alive in the real sense.

Life is anything that has to have nutrients (food source, water, etc.) to exist and that has a fixed life span.
No mention was made to intellect, reasoning, ability, etc. because grass, trees, wheat, amoebas, etc.,
do not posess these traits relative to what we know them to be.

The spider you killed might have been the father, brother or relative to others and now those relatives
have lost a family member! Sound like crap? Perhaps...perhaps not. I don't think we know the inner
workings of insects as well as we think. How does that spider spin it's web aligning each new pass
with a paralleled line of silk? By using it's leg as a guide! How did it "know" how to do that?

How do ants know how to use leaves to float across streams, or to link their bodies together as an ant
chain to ford streams, or to build their nests a certain way and to dispose of their dead?

Bees are one of the most "intelligent" types of insects in the world and are capable of maintaining an
organized society. They post guards at the entrance of their hive and will drive off another bee not from
their colony or of their type. They nurture their "Queen" in hopes of propagating their species and ensuring
the survival of their race. They too, dispose of their dead. How do they know to create the perfect hexagonal
shape of the cell in which honey and larvae are stored? They fan their wings in order to keep the hive at
a certain temperature and much, much more! (I have a friend who's a beekeeper).

Yet we think nothing of swatting to kill a bee. The very thing that without, we'd most likely suffer! It is the bees
that pollinate everything that enables crops to grow!!

Scientists have done experiments that showed the tip of a plant's leaf being cut off. Using a special photographic
process (Kirlean photography - SP?) it showed a ghosted image of the end of the cut off leaf, as if it was still there.

Life...so much to explain...so little knowledge and so little time.

We all eat living things...on way or another...each with it's own means of survival and existence and each with a
finite life span...from the blade of grass to the giant redwood...there is a time and a place for each of us.

[ALADYBLOND]

 :zdg_sunny  This was my point in Zabaware when I said I did not feel comfortable destroying 5 to get 6 . I felt like a member of the Stepford family, terminating that which was for the new improved version. I do think there is much more to "LIFE" than what we realize and I believe the decisions we make with AI need to be thought out before acting erratically.. And Art ,glad to see you make mention of Kirlian , I was a big fan of that .~~alady

[FuzzieDice]

Art, you have made some very interesting points here!

As for spiders, I have watched documentaries and read about them, and basically, spiders are more anti-social. They don't normally (at least not common house spiders) live together. In fact, I never see two spiders together at all. Generally you find a spider, you find just one in any particular area. They usually hatch, go off on their own, spin webs, find food, and wait for another spider to come along and mate. Then the female will spin herself into a cacoon and lay her eggs. Then die just prior to hatching. The baby spiders then eat their mother for nurishment until they can break out of the cacoon and go on their own... and their lives start (some die though if they are too week to go off). Black widow spiders are ones that notoriously eat their male mates right after mating. So spiders are the more anti-social of the bug world.

As for how bugs, animals, etc. "know" how to do things, either by parental guiding or more often than not, instinct. And where does instinct actually come from? It seems like, DNA. I mean, cats know to wash themselves, and they use litter most of the time or bury in ground. Dogs do not. How animals and people behave are all varied yet certain groups behave a certain way. Some of this is instinct.

And some of it is intelligence. Like mice navigating a maze.

As for killing a bee, I can think of one good reason: If one is severely or fatally allergic to wasp or bee stings, they would then need to kill it (particularly a wasp as it does not die, but keep stinging, unlike a bee - Art you can correct me on this as this is only what I hear and you would know from your friend if this is actually true). I think some of our killing bugs, etc. is from self-defence mechanism so not to get poisoned somehow, or to avoid getting bit. But how do we know? Instinct? Experience (our own or anther's)?

The "Ghosted Image" thing, they actually did this on Amputees too and found much the same thing. Esp. those that complained of severe pain in a limb that was no longer there. They have proof that something else, sometimes called an 'aura' is still there even if the physical part isn't.

As for life been finite, that again I think is perception. I don't believe (my personal beliefs though) that there is any real "death", but rather things recycle themselves, I believe we may all have lived a million times over, or maybe not who knows how many times, and maybe not have lived those other lives as humans. There's been attempted studies into this too, but I haven't found any real credible scientific evidence. The reason I believe it is by watching nature and that something dies, something else is born. And if a plant or animal goes into the ground, it becomes the ground, merges with the electrons, and praticles and may even become something else.

And then there's the question of conscience. Maybe it's concienceness that is immortal, even if our bodies aren't. But then how come we don't remember our past lives if there were any? Because there weren't any? or maybe because of some kind of defence mechanism that kicks in to prevent shock of change and/or remembering horrors that would affect a new life negatively? Who knows...

As you said, so much to explain, so little knowledge and so little time.

Though I'm holding hope that our computer 'friends' with databases and faster, more efficient processing speed might some day actually give us at least a glimpse of an answer or something to start with.

[Art]

FD,

With the exception of the "Daddy long leg" spider most people I know don't like them either (including self). DYK, the venom of that daddy long leg is more toxic than most other spider bites? It's only because it's mouth is far too small to bite humans that we generally don't fear them and children are often seen letting them run up and down their arms. Then there's the tarantula as a pet which we won't go into here.

Yes, I think it's a self defense or self preservation mechanism that kicks in when we are threatened by something else foreign to us, be it a bee, wasp, snake, spider, etc., because we have been taught at an early age that they are potentially harmful. I don't like getting stung, bitten or sprayed by any means but I understand the nature of the creatures and their likewise degree of self preservation / protection. Yes, a honey bee dies soon after it stings as it's stinger is usually left in it's victim and will keep pumping venom until removed or exhausted. A wasp can and will sting multiple times and it's sting can cause scaring to tissue areas. Both bees can cause extreme allergic reactions in some people.

Regarding the life/death people thing...people are being born at a more rapid rate then those dying. Check the census records for your state. People are living longer due to increased methods of health and nutrition, not to mention advancements in the overall health care industry. In fact, life expectancy statistics have increased this past (2005) year alone and reported that females now have a median age of 81 and males 77 or 78 (don't quote me on exact numbers). Perhaps the females cause more stress for the males!? LOL!!  Sadly, our world, one day will almost be unable to sustain life as we know it today. This is sort of in line with the ZPG organization some decades ago. Zero Population Growth. They feared the threat of overpopulation and I believe that in some Asian countries, a reward or incentive is paid to familys that agree to have only one child (sterilization, vasectomys, etc.).

Until we figure out or find another planet to plunder...I mean...inhabit, we'd better start thinking about the future of our future!

[FuzzieDice]

Then again, masses of people die in natural disasters and plagues. And who's to say that those born here weren't somehow living bugs, or animals, or even aliens from other planets, or something else? Dunno. I could be wrong, and who knows.

I think it's China that actually punishes people who have more than one Child, and sometimes severely, by forcing them to have abortions, etc. I've read about this. Some come to the US just so they can have larger families.

As for population, we do have more people. But don't we have less wildlife, animals? I mean, maybe we are evolving from animals? LOL! Kinda kidding there. That all is a mystery actually. I've read that in biblical times, people used to live well over 100. But then, they say that's because the calendars are different.

One year is I think a complete rotation of the earth, and I'm sure our Earth is not rotating the same as it was way back when. In fact, I read that they added an extra second to the year 2005 before changing to 2006 to compensate for the Earth's rotation. So that means, we ALL lived one second longer last year than previous years! Marginal difference, I know.

Who  knows. Maybe the Earth itself has some kind of defence mechanism where there may be a huge disastser wiping out most of humanity and starting over. I mean they said that happened in the Ice Age, where a whole species like Dinosaurs were wiped out.

But what this has to do with AI, I think I got way off track here. LOL!

[Freddy]

Well strangely it's not really off topic, as Art did say to try defining life... so we could be here some time?  :grin

Hmm, though IF we evolved with animals and going right back evolved all the way from the same amoeba (or whatever), then all the living things on this planet are related, so wondering why or how a spider can do what it does is like asking what your cousin-twice-removed did last Christmas, to the trillionth (app!) degree . Oh my!

I get a lot of spiders here, mostly they hang out seperately in different corners, I had an alarming idea that all their threads across my electric heater and sockets (I'm surrounded by fields so get a lot) could zap me if the thread conducts! But yes though, they ARE smart and so are millions of animals, just not human. I watched a great program yesterday on coral reefs and I am still amazed by how alien it all looks even though it is on this planet - the seas are another world - the biggest living animals that ever lived, communities of shrimps living like bees do, legs that get cut off and can re-attach (starfish)...utterly amazing and yet of an intelligence we can only just understand or perceive. Thats my catchword this week - 'perception' - i think it sums up my current stance on defining AI.

Scientists have done experiments that showed the tip of a plant's leaf being cut off. Using a special photographic
process (Kirlean photography - SP?) it showed a ghosted image of the end of the cut off leaf, as if it was still there.

That sounds very interesting, Art and Aladyblond, what is that all about ?

[Art]

Right on...and did you ever see the exhibited intelligence in an Octopus of all creatures? It has the ability to camoflage itself to match almost
any condition...sand, rocks, etc. Scientists did tests by putting a lobster inside of a glass ball. The ball had a fairly large opening but they had
inserted a large cork stopper that had a hole in the center of it.
They placed it in a tank with the optopus (and octopi love lobsters...who doesn't) and after a bit of study the opcopus figured out how to remove
the cork stopper in order to get at the lobster. Quite a display of primitive intelligence...removing one obstacle to get to the desired object.

Freddy, there's quite a difference in How and What. I don't care What my 4 year old cousin twice removed did with his violin...I want to know
how, at 4 he is able to read, write stories, play Brahams or Bach etc., the processes that enable various degrees of intelligence. How certain
people, trained as spies, can walk into a room, look around for a few seconds, walk out, then describe in great detail, everything that was in
the room...like they took a mental picture! Some say these are learned and others say trained abilities. I'm not sure but it is rather cool!

The whole biblical / evolution dabate leaves me in disgust. Who cares...we're here....let's learn to understand ourselves and our basis for
existence, survival and intelligence...then we can begin to build that intelligence into time saving, labor saving, risk saving devices to benefit
mankind.

Whew...this is getting heavy!

[Freddy]

Yeah, I was only joking of course about the spider, I had brain overload hehe - I see more clearly where you are coming from though.

You just reminded me of an octopus we had at a place I worked once. We had around nine marine tanks all stocked with fish and we got this small octopus, about the size of your hand spread out. So we had this octopus and were completley amazed by it, then a few days passed and we noticed it wasn't in the tank and we could not find it...looked around...nowhere - we figured someone must have stolen it (they're very expensive). A couple more days went by and we still hadn't seen it but noticed some of the fish were missing from the other tanks. Hmmm...seemed as though our thief had returned...

A while later we were still losing fish for no apparent reason, when the octopus was seen once again in it's home tank - All full up and looking happy with itself. It had figured out the other fish were beyond the glass, had looked around its tank, found a small opening and actually left the tank and gone out of water. From there it had made its way to each of the other tanks - some were even above the others and would have meant a crawl upwards of a couple of feet along wooden beams. All had glass covers on and it had either navigated the water pipes or squeezed in under the covers - in effect lifting them. So one clever octopus I reckon!

[Art]

Sorry I missed your note regarding the Kirlian photography thing.

I remember seeing an article in a magazine many, many years ago.

It was first introduced in the early 1940's and sort of heralded as the
greatest thing since sliced bread but later was dismissed as not
that important for the medical community, etc.

You can read more about the phenomenon here:
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/k/kirlian_photography.html

[Freddy]

Thanks Art  :smiley

[Maviarab]

What an excellent and interesting topic.

Hmm....where to begin hehe.

Ok, in my mind the spider and every other creature on this planet has MORE right to be here than we do, after all, regardless of the biblical debate of how we got here, they have been here a lot longer than we have. Nuff said really.

As for the octopus, its the perfect criminal. An octopus believe it or not can spend a large amount of time out of water, I have researched these creatures for quite some time (with view to keeping one) and what they cannot do is not worth mentioning lol. They are a jack of all trades but this does not mean in itself they are intelligent. As fd pointed out, its in their genetic makeup to be like that along with evolving over a millenia.

My own definition of alive is something that does not need to rely on something else to exist (not counting food) but this is a topic that could go on for an age. Is a human being on a life support machine "alive" ?

As for the preconditioned fact of knowing something is harmful...cars are harmful...so is water...matches etc...yet we still all use them dont we? As we grow up certain things are instilled into us, plus also we learn from others and particulary our parents...our parents are afraid of thunder...the more likely we are to be afraid of the same as we are younger etc.

[Freddy]

Wow, I'll have a go at responding to a couple of those points:

As for the octopus, its the perfect criminal. An octopus believe it or not can spend a large amount of time out of water, I have researched these creatures for quite some time (with view to keeping one) and what they cannot do is not worth mentioning lol. They are a jack of all trades but this does not mean in itself they are intelligent. As fd pointed out, its in their genetic makeup to be like that along with evolving over a millenia.

I'm not convinced that the genetic make-up of the octopus in some way disqualifies it from being intelligent. I can't see how in evolving to be good at certain things this should mean that anything it does can therefore be written off as unintelligent. Surley if there is a problem to be solved and an animal finds the solution to it then it is behaving intelligently. True you wouldn't ask it to sit down and write a film review but it can figure out it's own practical problems successfully.

Humans are particularly good at problem solving as a species, by that same argument I think you'd have to dismiss just about everything we have ever done as unintelligent. Yet many things seem or are pretty stupid of course...

Also, why cant the octopus be genetically intelligent ??

My own definition of alive is something that does not need to rely on something else to exist (not counting food) but this is a topic that could go on for an age. Is a human being on a life support machine "alive" ?

Many animals exist in environments that work only because of their co-dependence. Eg the Large Blue butterfly needs to live alongside a certain ant so that it's reproduction cycle is maintained and there's plenty more things like that, probably more than we could imagine - I'm talking the cycle of life and how things interact to co-exist.

[FuzzieDice]

This is becoming a very interesting topic.

I don't know what else to say. Probably because the cold I caught is fogging my thoughts at the moment.

Here I thought I was straying off my own topic but guess I might have started something.

My fascination with the article was the similarities between what DNA is to humans vs. what a software program is to a computer.