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Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Topic started by: vadim.it on August 18, 2019, 08:27:14 am

Title: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: vadim.it on August 18, 2019, 08:27:14 am
What if by some analogy with AlphaZero (and AlphaGo) are try to find some patterns in is why some music more more likely for human as another - and based on this and/or with "1 billion people" evaluating  new music and/or with data from Elon Musk Neuralink (listen music and point which more likely) (or even electrodes sewn into the brain (it is clear that a small number of people) ) - and so are try to find and deep learn the best music in the World ?

I remember what's happend with me before I got into this body in childhood and I remeber some heaven music's in astral worlds - and based on this know that the limit of musical pleasure is such that you can’t even imagine ..

and it would be incredibly cool to reach it on Earth, technically there is no problem reproducing audio - the only question is to find the "desired byte sequence" (there are obviously not one) in mp3 / wav ..

your thoughts, how real is this with AI?  :read:
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 18, 2019, 09:00:38 am
“I'd heard there was a secret chord 
That David played and it pleased the Lord”

A while back I got the idea to look at the audio spectrum of some people like Aguilera, Mercury, and Khanova, (to discover what on earth is going on). Never got around to it though, could not find useful free software. But you reminded me! Maybe someone here knows a free music analysis program.

Hmm.. Maybe the AI could look through youtube to get some data about what people like. But then it might do mostly Gangnam Style...  :)

Welcome to AiDreams, vadim.it
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: vadim.it on August 18, 2019, 10:02:18 am
Hmm.. Maybe the AI could look through youtube to get some data about what people like. But then it might do mostly Gangnam Style...  :)

well, maybe it’s possible to generate it from scratch — for example, at first “1 billion people” will find the simplest bit / frequency sequences that are generally pleasing to the hearing at least somehow - then we will try to find patterns in them and predict new “samples” that people will like more, people listen and the neural network retrains for new reviews - along the way, it tries to compose longer musical sequences from the best "samples" ..

either try using Neurolink to find patterns in electromagnetic waves from the head with bit / frequency sequences in music (to begin with in the existing one that you like best), and then on a trained neural network try to predict such a sequence of electromagnetic radiation that most reflects the buzz of the music you hear, and try to predict the correspondence of musical bits / frequencies for him ..

try both on one person, and comparing with "1 billion" people with Neurolink ..
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: vadim.it on August 18, 2019, 10:27:30 am
for example, this music was generated by artificial intelligence, very cool  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA03iyI3yEA
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: goaty on August 18, 2019, 10:31:25 am
Get a microphone then start blaming what comes in on something.    Then when these happen again it should start spitting it back out.   :2funny:
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: vadim.it on August 18, 2019, 10:45:35 am
Get a microphone then start blaming what comes in on something.    Then when these happen again it should start spitting it back out.   :2funny:

What do you mean ?  :o
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 18, 2019, 05:23:59 pm
There exist sites already such as Pandora (https://www.pandora.com/) that somewhat determine a person's musical tastes and suggest songs that their algorithm believes that listener would like. Neural networks could do this already, or even manual self-analysis would work, especially if PCA is used (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal_component_analysis). Such prediction algorithms are currently very important and common for sales of recommended products, as well, especially on Amazon and eBay. So this is all old hat. Alpha Zero type programs would just do it better.

You have to realize that music is awfully complicated, though, like human faces or fingerprints: it has a complicated interplay of melody, chords, keys, and timbres that often have fuzzy boundaries. Like chess and go, however, music can fortunately be discretized pretty well, since each musical composition has a fixed resolution of speed, and almost always has only predetermined pitches allowed (12 notes per octave x maybe 5-7 octaves at most), so with a finite set of parameters I believe the music would lend itself very well to computer analysis.

Another caveat is that "best" is almost meaningless in this context since each person has unique preferences, and those preferences change not only through life but within even a single day, depending on mood, need for novelty, and so on. That means that averaging preferences as you suggested would merely end up giving a formula for commercially successful music for the average person for the average activity, probably something like The Beatles while driving to work, which is certainly not music that is as sophisticated as classical, and is certainly not as sophisticated as music from heaven, if such a thing even exists.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 18, 2019, 07:47:11 pm
You guys actually realize Aiva is open to public yet lol. >

https://www.aiva.ai/

I just made one. It's real now, finally! Just still needs more techno. But there is rock etc.
I'm recording it using WM for free, screw paying :P
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 18, 2019, 08:21:24 pm
You guys actually realize Aiva is open to public yet lol. >

No, I didn't realize that, thanks. I'll be playing with it, too, in that case. However:

Quote
Licensee is not permitted to use the Audio and/or MIDI Composition as part of a training dataset for any Machine Learning, Deep Learning or statistical algorithm. If the Licensee wishes to use the Audio and/or MIDI Composition as part of a training dataset, this use case would be ruled by a separate Licensing Agreement, to be negotiated and signed between the parties.
https://www.aiva.ai/legal/1

I.e., you gotta pay for heavenly music.  :)
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: goaty on August 19, 2019, 07:49:40 am
Get a microphone then start blaming what comes in on something.    Then when these happen again it should start spitting it back out.   :2funny:

What do you mean ?  :o

MACHINE LEARNING 101 ->

machine learning is about assignment,   even our brain is based apon assignment.
But!  a machine has ALOT less and they are ILLOGICAL.  in our brain they are perfect.

Basic machine learning is connect I -> o.     I being the "probable cause", and o being "what it did"  it does work correlatively (as in with improper causation) but you will get overloads( 2 outputs that stand for the same input) and you will have generality problems (it doesn't happen when it should, and its always less often. TOO SPECIFICLY!)

For an audio system, Input could be just the last output, is the cheekiest way to do it.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 19, 2019, 11:24:12 pm
WOAHH!!!!!

AIVA is really good music generator! My 3rd one nailed it, its WONDERFUL!!!! That on got a longer name.
P.S. if you didn't see mine from Musenet, you missed out on my other great ones!!

MuseNet:
https://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13996.msg58204#msg58204

Attachments:
<see below>

Note, while AIVA's is "better", mine is maybe more "rare". Both top-notch excellency anyhow though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA03iyI3yEA
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 20, 2019, 08:13:19 pm
Still waiting for one of yous to remark in surprise at my big impressive track, asking, "What did you do?" so I can reply back and say "Just clicked a button".
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 20, 2019, 10:21:00 pm
Still waiting for one of yous to remark in surprise at my big impressive track

I have been mostly unimpressed at every piece I've heard from that site. I created one (supposed) rock song there and I consider it a dud:

https://beta.aiva.ai/publicPlayer?c=5d59a6ca9fa808020acdb5f8

In general all their music sounds like some uninspired music intended to be played in the background for somebody's YouTube video. It sounds like it was written by somebody with home studio software but where the person doesn't know how to write songs. There are no clear-cut chord changes, no key changes, no standard song structures like AABA that I would recognize, no bridge, the rock doesn't have a distorted guitar sound, I don't like minor keys--which are rare in rock anyway--and there is no way to select major or minor for the key, no way to select the song structure or even verse structure, no clear-cut solos, and so on. The only thing that really impressed me was the melody phrasing, which was very human-like. The melodies aren't very interesting, but they do sound like they were written by a human, albeit a human with mediocre songwriting ability. I could write much better software, but I doubt anybody's going to pay me to do so, and I'm not interested enough to do it for free, so I guess these free AIVA compositions are the best any of us are likely to encounter from computer-generated music for now.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 20, 2019, 10:37:20 pm
To me, the opposite, the "On The Edge" and my best one above both sound like a professional human created them. AIVA's sounds perfect, it was incredibly emotional and thrilling, just as the name On The Edge. I don't know how you could even improve such algorithm at first glance, it is auto-mated indeed. While it lacks a lot, and isn't created the top human music, it certainly has given me favs I am storing in my library. 2 so far, mainly On The Edge. :)

Edit: And that long name one I made, I do like it, a lot. If I generate more, I can get more out of it surely. As for the rest, even they are soothing and useful for other uses, it is really good!!

Yes I know we have different tastes, that is part of me, I know it well!! Bugs like their own stuff, let em BEE!!! ZZZZ
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 20, 2019, 10:49:10 pm
To me, the opposite

Well, I did mention that each person has unique musical taste, and you're confirming that, so I'll leave it at that... Unless you want to hear the creepy thing AIVA wrote for me that it considers 'jazz'--in yet another minor key:  :)

https://beta.aiva.ai/publicPlayer?c=5d5c65f69fa808020acdfb5f
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 20, 2019, 11:40:13 pm
See edit

Also Andey, both your quotes leave out context.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 21, 2019, 01:08:07 am
let em BEE!!!

Let 'em bee,
Let 'em bee,
Let 'em bee, yeah,
Let 'em bee.
Whisper words of wisdom,
Let 'em bee.

Sounds like another Beatles song suitable for driving to work.  :)
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 21, 2019, 05:26:34 am
At least I can appreciate ANY song, for what it says/is/envisions, even if I don't like it at all. I said this in a thread before. I can not only understand what is is showing in a visual imagination, but also appreciate it. Your Jeff Hawkins writer says this 2 LOL, we learn the same world model - Catholics know apples fall from gravity off a table, as you do. Even cats.

Didn't you understand my long-named track I attached? It was very elegant, and mysterious, professionally done by the AI lol.

AIVA seemed to name theirs right - On The Edge. Clearly, it isn't just me, that believes that name fits what it is about. It's a thriller, post-apoptotic rock. You can SEE the thrill, the cries, the pain, the vision. We both see the same sensory images.

And besides, :) if you think this music is not that great :), then you're gonna have to compare it to mine I made by hand age 21 :P >>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV5rcpBUWwQ&t=146s
if that makes sense (can't even tell if mine is better or not, hmm)
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 21, 2019, 05:44:58 am
That's rather cool 1:55 to 3:30 is my fav piece.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 21, 2019, 05:48:12 am
The things in the sky are 2 giant gods, that suicide. They hit the floor. You can hear it.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 21, 2019, 06:11:23 am
I like the contrast, it's like dirty techno, when the whole premise of techno (I think) is the defined precise clarity of ones and zeros. It's like Star Trek VS Star Wars, Star Wars is the visually interesting version of sci fi, your music is the sonically interesting version of techno.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 21, 2019, 04:41:29 pm
Quote
It's a thriller, post-apoptotic rock. You can SEE the thrill, the cries, the pain, the vision. We both see the same sensory images.

Huh. I don't think I see any of that. To me, "On the Edge" sounds upbeat and mellow, edging into triumphant toward the end.
I do rather like it; the AI's done a decent job. However it does not put a "thrilling" feeling in my mind.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 22, 2019, 09:50:46 pm
See edit

My apologies--I didn't know you were referring to your attached ZIP file songs. Those are *way* different than all the other AIVA compositions posted. Those zipped songs are actually impressive. It's hard for me to believe AIVA could do so well on those zipped file songs and so poorly on the others. What style did you select for those three? Maybe AIVA was optimized for that style, for some reason.

P.S.--Do you think we all have hijacked vadim.it's thread enough by now? I had a better idea for how to produce spiritual music, but maybe my other criticisms scared him off.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 22, 2019, 10:18:32 pm
I think we all hijack threads. It's part of dreaming, saying what A has entail or =. Further, our replies are on topic, about the perfect music/voice. And as we know there is no correct/perfect thing, only what replicating evolution desires is spoken about as being loved. like female voices, yum. And the smell of fries, unbearable to resist!! Let's talk about the perfect smells!! And perfect knowledge!!

I used the AIVA Fantasy preset, I didn't change anything I think. So go generate! Set it to 5 compositions to increase mutation throughput. Many will not be selected to get you your perfect composition faster! Speed it up! Set it to 5! There is a piano-roll but I didn't touch anything! It was fully generated.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 22, 2019, 11:02:38 pm
I think vadim.it has the authority to tell us if we get too far off topic. But otherwise, lets keep on talking, we may eventually discover something cool related to the initial question.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 23, 2019, 12:36:12 am
OK, I'll throw out my suggestions for finding spiritual music. First, consider this excerpt from a book on AI:

(p. 85)
Music, Endorphins,
and the Idealist
Philosophers

FOR MOST OF US the boundary between "in-
side" and "outside" seems clearcut. Outside
is a world of objects, nature, other creatures;
inside is a private kingdom of thoughts,
dreams, desires, and memories, enclosed in
the hard casement of the skull. When someone confuses the two, mistaking
his own thoughts for the orders of KGB agents, we label him as schizophrenic.
If we look deep into the perverse complexity of the nervous system, how-
ever, we learn that internal and external realities aren't so easy to distin-
guish.
   In 1977 Avram Goldstein posed an odd question to a motley group of
Stanford medical and music students and employees at his Hormone Re-
search Laboratory. Did they ever, when moved by their favorite music,
experience thrills or tingles, a prickly feeling at the back of the neck or
along the spine? Some said, yes, music did affect them that way. Where-
upon Goldstein picked ten volunteers and put them in darkened, sound-
proof booths with headphones. Each time the wistful strains of Mahler or
the shrieking wah-wah guitar solos of Jimi Hendrix (or whatever the sub-
ject's favorite musical passage was) sent shivers down their spines, the
subjects indicated so with hand signals.
Between sessions Goldstein gave
them shots of either saline (a placebo) or the endorphin-blocker naloxone.
It was a double-blind study; neither the subjects nor the experimenters
knew who got what. After nineteen separate tests, the pharmacologist
reported that a third of the listeners experienced fewer and less intense
thrills after naloxone. The implication: The sublime tingles of musical
appreciation had something to do with endorphins.


Hooper, Judith, and Dick Teresi. 1986. The Three-Pound Universe. New York, New York: Macmillan Publishing Company.

So that's part of what you're looking for: endorphins. However, endorphins are usually associated with euphoria, which is an emotion that does not necessarily have a spiritual connection. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphins) However, another clue comes from another AI book...

(p. 152)
Neuroscientists from the University of California at San Diego have found what
they call the God module, a tiny locus of nerve cells in the frontal lobe that ap-
pears to be activated during religious experiences
. They discovered this neural
machinery while studying epileptic patients who have intense mystical experi-
ences during seizures. Apparently the intense neural storms during a seizure
stimulate the God module. Tracking surface electrical activity in the brain with
highly sensitive skin monitors, the scientists found a similar response when very
religious nonepileptic persons were shown words and symbols evoking their
spiritual beliefs.


Kurzweil, Ray. 1999. The Age of Spiritual Machines: When Computers Exceed Human Intelligence. New York, New York: Viking Penguin.

Now it's a little harder to debunk the notion of spiritual feelings. Such feelings may have only a physical basis--"only" a cluster of neurons--but their practical effect is sublime and the result can be some of the loftiest thinking and goals possible in human beings. That excerpt also tells us exactly what to look for, regarding response to music that produces spiritual feelings. Now the path to the automatic production of spiritual music gets clearer: have human subjects listen to music that generates endorphins and/or that stimulates the God module, probably with emphasis on the latter, and monitor and note which music produces the strongest reaction of those two effects. (The proper mixture of those two sensations would be an interesting question.)

One more suggestion: Don't use averages, but rather invariants. An average is a value that is roughly in the middle, and when seeking extremes (in this case, "best"), the average is the wrong value to seek. I'd recommend using a set of invariants, which would be the mathematical operation of set intersection applied to a set of values (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(set_theory)). In this case, the set of values would be the attributes of the musical passages that create spiritual feelings. For example, if three songs created spiritual feelings and their attributes were....

song #1: S1 = {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, exotic scales, instruments with high sustain, same key}
song #2: S2 = {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, common scales, instruments with high sustain, multiple keys}
song #3: S3 =  {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, common scales, instruments with high sustain, same key}

Then...

S1 intersect S2 intersect S3 =  {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, instruments with high sustain}

...which would give you a set of two attributes that are present in *every* song that the human subjects considered spiritual. That would at the least be a set of major clues that would start to zero in on the attributes most likely to be important.

That's a simplified example, of course, but it does bring up another suggestion: instead of initially drowning in the complexities of melodies and chords and how to describe their shapes and overlapping regions, start the investigation with middle level concepts such as the attributes I used above, along with some of the attributes I mentioned in my earlier post of this thread, such as song structure, key modality, and instruments present. For example, I know I have a preference for major keys (as opposed to minor keys), and a preference for two-part verses (as opposed to one-part verses), and a preference for songs with a structure like ABABC where the C section is a lengthy climax, so the music generation software, if any is used, should have options at that level of abstraction, which AIVA did not (my earlier complaint).

For a concrete example, recently I've found the first song of the following song pair to be very spiritually uplifting and endophin-generating, too, at least for myself:

()
Eric Johnson - Venus Isle & The Battle We Have Won
Flatuleitor AndShit
Published on Oct 17, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pE5y352814
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 23, 2019, 06:57:20 am
I think a major purpose of music is emotional communication. It’s meant to impress ideas upon the audience that are difficult to convey with words. You could tell everyone “Listen, don’t go to the neighboring village tonight, there is a wicked snowstorm, and you’ll surely freeze.”  Or, you can layer your own experience/feelings under the facts in order to create a more substantial message:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_4lFqKM3GA

We respond well to music which does this effectively, that is, music which we have learned to understand. That’s why we all have individual tastes, it’s a big informal language, and everyone will have absorbed pieces of it at different strengths. Like a Venn diagram with variable depth. We value the parts that we understand best, because they are the most useful, so we gravitate to them, and create further positive associations with those styles. Same thing happens with people who get really into mathematics. All this probably boils down to an inbuilt appreciation for effective symbols. The endorphin spike could happen when we discover and understand a novel form of condensed experience, be it eiπ + 1 = 0, a gesture, or a note. The different mediums have their own strengths, and music could be an especially good vehicle for spiritual experience.

In order to find the best music, you’d have to make it about something universal. A topic, emotion, experience, which everyone knows and accepts. Now that you’ve got something broadly effective, you must find a way to make it deeply effective, ie; not bland, (which it the well-known curse of things that cater to everyone). This might be the time to go into details, using invariants to pick good bits from the popular stuff. But then, you can’t just combine all the best pieces and expect heavenly music. It would be a jumbled medley.  So, I don’t know what the next step could be.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 23, 2019, 08:10:48 am
Quote
In order to find the best music, you’d have to make it about something universal

Make a song about food. Make sure to include chopping sounds, frying sizel, chewing, and licking.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Korrelan on August 23, 2019, 09:06:07 am
The brain has natural rhythms which do coincide with recognised base/ bass beats, the beats were devised by humans after all. Your brain initially learns or is exposed to rhythms whilst you are still in the womb, your mother’s heart beat and sounds/ music penetrating the womb walls all help to shape your initial audio cortex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov3aeqjeih0

This is the best analogy I’ve found for why/ how music ‘moves’ us.  If you imagine each metronome is a cortical network, the duration and offset of the beat depicts a different state or process being performed by that brain network/ region.  The freely moving board represents the global thought pattern GTP and is able to both convey and influence global activity.  A recognised base beat will bring several key networks into synchronicity and flush the GTP with that rhythm.  This is why you feel the need to dance or tap your finger/ foot… the rhythmic influence is so strong it will affect your motor cortex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_426RiwST8

 :)
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 23, 2019, 09:52:28 am
But...

Notice the metronomes begin moving at the same pace, moving the table with themselves? This is because the photon "motion" is swirling around like a spirit in the table, and is equalizing, moving left, right, left, right, going through all atoms. Like a gas, it is spreading out.

When the government's secret AGI robot starts dancing, you know you did it right I guess.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 23, 2019, 10:36:02 pm
This is why you feel the need to dance or tap your finger/ foot… the rhythmic influence is so strong it will affect your motor cortex.

Thanks for the terrific insights. I had come to similar conclusions about rhythm. Rhythm is the one component that is almost required in any musical composition, regardless of country or style. In modern drum circles, rhythm is the only component of the music, in fact. A (musician) friend of mine once made a terrific observation that corroborates this theory, when students before class were playing around with some resin chimes, which issue a shrieking, very sustained note at a single pitch, and he noticed that the people who were talking while the chimes were sounding would adjust their speaking pitches to match the pitches of the chimes. In general, putting both observations together, it seems that humans naturally adjust to match outside sounds however they can, in order to create the least discord. A related hypothesis from another (musician) friend of mine was that humans favor certain harmonies  (especially 5ths, 3rds, and octaves) because those harmonies cause the least physical pain when the waves coincide and cause what are called beats. (https://freethoughtblogs.com/atrivialknot/2019/01/26/measuring-musical-dissonance/) I haven't heard of any research on that, but it makes sense. Another corroboration was when I first bought The Beatles' "Abbey Road" album and was really getting into the rock song "The End" on that album once, and noticed that my heart was beating in sync with each pulse of the 4/4 rhythm. I'd never noticed that effect before. And most generally of all, we know that animals as well as humans are in sync with natural frequencies of all kinds: sleep every night, menstruation every lunar cycle, hibernation every winter, synchronized neurons (https://www.quora.com/How-do-neurons-synchronize), synchronized fireflies (https://www.nps.gov/grsm/learn/nature/fireflies.htm), and so on, so humans getting into sync with musical rhythm makes perfect sense.

As for the metronomes, I'd heard of such entrainment before, like clocks on the same wall coming into sync, but that was the most convincing demonstration I'd ever seen. I didn't know such entrainment happened so fast.

()
The End (Remastered 2009)
The Beatles
Published on Jun 17, 2018
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12R4FzIhdoQ


Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 23, 2019, 11:34:29 pm
Andey, how do i share tracks like you did on AIVA for free?

Oops...my incredible track was actually Modern Cinematic, F major, Epic Orchestra
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 23, 2019, 11:58:33 pm
So music feels good because it takes the pressure off our internal rhythm generators? Sort of allowing our nervous system to sail on the beat, giving our rowing muscles a chance to rest? In that case it could boil down to having the maximum number of assistive beats in your song. Though its probably best if those are a novelty. So maybe a progression through several rhythms would be better. Or adding a disruptive beat every so often, like when people jump from a sauna into a frozen river and back again, so they can appreciate the sauna.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2019, 12:00:20 am
No no no lol. Music is entaintaining because it relates to your hobby. If  you like science, then you like thrill or Dr. Evil. If you like new laws, you like hitler rock. It's mental language, not so much pulses. That itself is another Rewards, indeed, but not the main-est cause.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2019, 12:13:55 am
And, sometimes a song lyrics is alone the reason for liking......it is story liking, not pulse liking.

So much for korr's 1-man project :)
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2019, 12:17:39 am
And

DO YOU REALIZE how much pain I go through, to find just the right song for the moment of my evil attempts at AGI!? It's gotta give me thoughts on topic. It's related to my motives, not to turn my nerves on while I work. Not always got music on but I can remember searching my library...gotta be just right song. A good one.

:)

Happy songs don't cut it, I use advanced music. Happy songs are for happy times instead. :>
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 24, 2019, 12:18:27 am
I think a major purpose of music is emotional communication.

More great insights, thanks. I've often heard that music is a universal form of communication, but as your wording suggests, there are other "purposes" of music, such as inspiration, memory aids, social glue, and so on.

As for music needing to be universal in message, that fits with the general wisdom of art that the best paintings, photographs, films, books, cartoons, etc. are about common universal experiences. Non-lyrical music and certain abstract art seem to contradict this at first because music and certain abstract art styles don't depict anything specific in a visual way, but in an abstract way I believe they still do.

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/58/7c/cb/587ccbc4ef1dd920c6bddbbfc8cdfd63.jpg)

I have a deep hypothesis about this, but as a concrete example, consider the song Korrelan posted:  "Lonely Boy" by The Black Keys. I looked up the chord progression for that, and it's: E G A, or more abstractly I bIII IV, which is a very common rock progression, and a very appealing one at that. (https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/the_black_keys/lonely_boy_chords_1120149) Why is it so appealing? There are several reasons, but one reason is that the chords are ascending in an obvious way that most people can hear. Part of my hypothesis is that people unconsciously associate abstract emotional concepts with musical passages that reflect those concepts in an auditory way. In this case the emotional concept will be that of ascent/progress, and in this case the musical cause is that the chords are ascending. Here's some corroboration for that conjecture: Consider the jazz song "Movin' On Out". The chord progression has the same chord relationships as "Lonely Boy", bIII IV I, except with the key chord at the end instead of at the beginning of the cycle, and other slight alterations like a different key, different musical genre, and different instruments. The music has the same positive effect, in my opinion: an appealing, positive, powerful sense of progress...

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Movin' On Out
Steve Graeber - Topic
Published on Oct 22, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g_QjKc-vow

...so that lyrics are not even needed to reinforce that effect. Visually you can think of this song as a group of three steps that keeps repeating and therefore keeps ascending, with some sort of visual embellishments tying together or dancing around the steps as you ascend (vines? birds? butterflies?). The instrumental solos are the equivalent musical embellishments. The inspiring song I posted, "Venus Isle" by Eric Johnson, is quite similar, although the second chord is different: bVI instead of bIII, so it slightly alters the ascending effect. Again, the guitar solos at the end, which are the climax of "Venus Isle", are just embellishments over a chord progression that is inherently appealing and ascending, which Eric Johnson emphasized with the lyrics about ascent like "And blasted off to the stars." (https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/eric_johnson/venus_isle_chords_2249021) I could give many more examples of corroboration of my hypothesis, if needed.

Where does my hypothesis leave us with respect to the nuts and bolts of creation of spiritual music? (1) I believe the songwriter should first decide exactly which mood they want to convey: amount of power (4/4 rhythm is more intense than 3/4 rhythm, for example), clarity of ascent (I bIII is more obvious than I bVI), piquancy (in a major key, tastefully flatted notes like b3 and b7 are more piquant than 3 and 7), and so on. Both the chords and the scales used in the song are affected by this decision. (2) Select chords and scales that will match the decision in #1. (3) With the underlying theory of the song in place, then continue to match decision #1 with specifics such as instruments, amount of harmony, specific chains of notes, and so on. (4) Test the success of the resulting song on people, either by conventional responses (verbal, written) or (ideally) by measured neural responses, and then make corrections and learn what worked and what didn't, and why. (5) Refine the process and develop a similar theory for the most effective ways to chain together notes in a melody, with the goal stated in #1.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2019, 12:24:32 am
As in my tastes, that song means "advancements" but totally not dark at all. It's bright, light.

It's simple, too. No complex.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2019, 12:49:49 am
You have to consider everything. Does the user want fast pace? A trumpet in there? A girl speaking!!? Dark bass? Complex tchno? Ear hurting raw? Choppy? About science? Then you begin to say..........wait..........this is language context based, I'll never model all these Rules. Exactly, stop trying to pin point it. There are rubs/vibes we like, but music is more than stimuli alone. It's a story. It helps you think. It gives you enthusiasm in your job.
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 24, 2019, 01:21:09 am
Happy songs don't cut it, I use advanced music. Happy songs are for happy times instead. :>

I also like some downer songs, no problem. But the OP is looking for ways to use AI to automatically create music that might be played in heaven, and I doubt that someone in heaven is going to be singing the blues and swearing about his wife making love to the garbage man.  :)

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Buddy Guy_The Garbage Man Blues
rapitroy
Published on Aug 28, 2009
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkUbPaSwQZA


Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: Hopefully Something on August 24, 2019, 02:55:46 am
(1) I believe the songwriter should first decide exactly which mood they want to convey: amount of power (4/4 rhythm is more intense than 3/4 rhythm, for example), clarity of ascent (I bIII is more obvious than I bVI), piquancy (in a major key, tastefully flatted notes like b3 and b7 are more piquant than 3 and 7), and so on. Both the chords and the scales used in the song are affected by this decision. (2) Select chords and scales that will match the decision in #1. (3) With the underlying theory of the song in place, then continue to match decision #1 with specifics such as instruments, amount of harmony, specific chains of notes, and so on. (4) Test the success of the resulting song on people, either by conventional responses (verbal, written) or (ideally) by measured neural responses, and then make corrections and learn what worked and what didn't, and why. (5) Refine the process and develop a similar theory for the most effective ways to chain together notes in a melody, with the goal stated in #1.

You could possibly elevate it one step further by playing several contrasting moods against each other. I think it provides a cool counterpoint effect, where the different attitudes emphasize one another.  Plus, such an arrangement prevents you from becoming desensitized to a continuous mood in a song.

For example, here you have a combination of surrender and perseverance (to me at least) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw3mFXOwRgw
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 24, 2019, 04:11:58 am
You could possibly elevate it one step further by playing several contrasting moods against each other.

Definitely. Some old "pastiche" groups that did that a lot were Yes, and Paul McCartney.

Without more information from vadim.it, we're now guessing at what exactly he had in mind: speed, instruments, mood, appeal to the masses vs appeal to sophisticates, etc. The impression I got from his description was something like either Indian classical music played on sitar (in which case no chords would be used), or majestic classical music with huge choruses of females singing (which could be very sophisticated and unappealing to the masses). New Age music and its subset Space Ambient music are other possibilities, in which case no explicit rhythm is used. Many possibilities. Anyway, his original question at least led to an interesting thread.

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Heart of the Sunrise (2003 Remaster)
yesofficial
Published on Dec 11, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vNcgL9Fi4w
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: AndyGoode on August 24, 2019, 04:53:11 am
Andey, how do i share tracks like you did on AIVA for free?

Oops...my incredible track was actually Modern Cinematic, F major, Epic Orchestra

Just click on the "..." at the end of the line of a created song in the list provided, then Share, Link Sharing - Enable, then copy and paste the displayed link to your forum post.

OK, I just tried the Modern Cinematic for the first time and got this one:

https://beta.aiva.ai/publicPlayer?c=5d60b176ddbbbb3423058905

It's very convincing, though nothing sublime or striking. I played it in the background and forgot for a while that it was computer-composed, and my attention somewhat ignored it since evidently my mind subconsciously thought it was some unknown film music playing on YouTube in the background that wasn't of much interest to me. That's actually a good sign that a computer-generated composition succeeded. That's in contrast to that jazz song it created earlier, where part of me was shouting "Turn it off! Please turn that thing off!" It sounded like it had been trained on the jazz standard "Summertime," which is one of the few jazz standards I can't stand, and "Summertime" is very atypical of jazz compositions anyway, and the AIVA song was worse than "Summertime" due to its weird sustained instrument and chromatic note that was part of the melody for no good reason. (The human reason for using such a note is usually to transition into a nearby note, which the computer melody did not do.)
Title: Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2019, 05:08:21 am
Worked. I tried earlier, but following your instructions led me surely to the link needed.

Track: The pretty metal one, falling into the egyption abyss, on the way to glory god
https://beta.aiva.ai/publicPlayer?c=5d5b1cfc9fa808020acdda43