Formal Ethics

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spydaz

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2019, 04:40:18 pm »
I think it is impossible to completely follow laws of ethics. Merely one's existence has to be in contradiction with well-being of someone else (not necessarily human). That is just the way things are on this planet, and if someone tries to make a tin righteous fighter that is hungry of justice, it won't turn out very well for anyone alive, in my opinion.

I think people are inherently selfish and Ethic only have value when the suit the person usually at the expense of somebody else's personal choices..... Good and Evil is subjective... to the person as well as the community... In reality is there really such thing as good and evil?....

Only the strong survive and life is natural selection, but ethics can be used to sway that argument to the opposite reality... The weak survive and life is about control , power and money....Ethic Phew ..... Big! Mind-washing!......Not to say i don't find it interesting .... or study it from time to time...it give light into the human expectations or one another

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AndyGoode

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2019, 02:01:38 am »
Ethics are Cultural by design...

Not quite true.

I went through a book once on Rational Emotive Therapy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_emotive_behavior_therapy), which described research into the invariants of morality. It's true that different cultures have variations (https://classroom.synonym.com/cultural-differences-in-moral-reasoning-12087801.html) on what is considered moral, but the research found that two invariants existed in virtually all human cultures: (1) Be kind and considerate to others; (2) Include yourself in rule (1). In other words, The Golden Rule. Unfortunately I don't have that quote on hand because that was so many years ago.

If you think about it, these two rules are just a subset of wisdom in the bigger view of things. Since fortunes change and different people will be in power at different times, no person can guarantee they will always be in charge, therefore every rational, self-honest person is going to have to agree that no other moral system will be guaranteed to be tolerable. It's interesting that psychology experiments on monkeys prove that even monkeys have empathy for less fortunate monkeys, although admittedly sometimes grudgingly so (https://www.theguardian.com/science/2008/aug/26/animalbehaviour.medicalresearch). Logically this is a survival heuristic that applies to all species, since no individual can predict when he/she/it will need the help of another member of its species, so killing off or socially alienating oneself from others is dangerous in the long term. Bees and ants take this heuristic to an extreme.

P.S.--As for your comment about survival of the fittest, there exists a good quote by Euell Gibbons, I believe in his book "Stalking the Good Life". He points out that, even among plants, one method of competing successfully in nature is to be useful to others, such as in  commensalism and mutualism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensalism), so cooperation in nature is pretty standard, so nature is not "red in tooth and claw" as the common phrase and associated common misperception suggest (https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/red-in-tooth-and-claw.html).

P.P.S.:
(5-11-19: I found one quote I mentioned):

(p. 223)
   The great genius Thomas Huxley, while one of the first to
challenge this theory of "gradualism" in evolution, loved to
emphasize the violent competitiveness and overpowering aggres-
sion in nature. The great Victorian poet Tennyson used such
(p. 224)
phrases as "Nature, red in tooth and claw," and our own Wil-
liam James, while deploring the growing softness of our young
people, urged that they be enlisted in "man's eternal war on
nature."
   Despite scientific refutation, this fallacy has persisted into our
day, and is still found in the most respectable quarters. One of
the greatest minds of our time, Arnold Toynbee, in his book An
Historian's Approach to Religion, speaks of "Nature's lust and
bloodthirstiness," and even writes--and I quote, "the first as-
spect in which Nature presents herself to Man's intellect and will
is as a monster who is creating and destroying perpetually,
prodigally, aimlessly, senselessly, ruthlessly and immorally."
   I pity a man who can see nature only through such eyes.
When I hear a man using phrases as "Nature's lust and
bloodthirstiness" and "Nature, red in tooth and claw," I think
that here is a man who is getting his attitude toward nature from
books, and not from firsthand observation. If man is really en-
gaged in "eternal war on nature," then I am a traitor to man-
kind, for I have withdrawn from this war and made a separate
peace.
   In the same book I have mentioned, Dr. Toynbee says,
"Every living creature is striving to make itself the center of the
universe, and in the act is entering into rivalry with every other
living creature." A good course in ecology would have kept this
truly great man  from making such a ridiculous statement. It
ignores the vast community of cooperation, interdependence,
symbiosis, commensalism, and mutualism that is found within
nature. it would be far more true to say that every life form in
order to survive, must relate itself to dozens of other life forms,
and the vast majority of these interrelationships could never be
described as rivalry. I do not ignore the competition and vio-
lences that is found in nature. Of course these things exist. But
when viewed in the context of the interdependence and the great
areas of cooperation found in nature, the roles of competition
and violence are seen to be pretty small.

Gibbons, Euell. 1974. Stalking the Good Life: My Love Affair with Nature, Sixth Printing, April 1974. New York: McKay Company.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 04:53:01 am by AndyGoode »

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2019, 04:39:46 am »
Quote
I don’t think we should just pile on more ideologies to counter previous ones. The seesaw can snap rather than balance. In any case who wants all these conflicting beliefs weighing on them and distracting them from reality? Far better to gently reduce pre-existing ideologies and allow the people to become naturally well balanced. Living things tend to do that if you stop prodding them.

I don't think it's possible to get away from ideologies.  You, Hopefully Something, are advocating for an ideology right here.  It sounds like some combination of Romanticism or Primitivism, and Libertarianism.  "Natural=good" is not a tautology, and when you imply something like that, you're expressing a belief system.

What's more, I don't see these ideologies as being more grounded in day-to-day facts than any other ideologies.  The noble savage, who realizes his supposed innate goodness because civilization/society has left him alone, is a hypothetical person. The libertarian notion of utopia seems about as fanciful and likely to fail as the communist one.

Anyhow, I didn't necessarily have big ideas about the structure of society in mind when I made my comment; I was thinking of how we apply ethics in our personal lives. My contention, in a nutshell, was that even if we aren't saints, we should at least desire and hope to be saints. Let us strive to be our best selves and grow closer to the ideal, and encourage those around us to do the same ... not stop at "I'm a pretty okay person, and I don't need to be anything more."

Cooperation and interdependence certainly exist in the non-human natural world, but predatory, parasitic, and violently competitive behaviors are also realized frequently. I do like AndyGoode's note about how some very basic ideals are universal ... but if you argue that "all humans recognize the Golden Rule because that's the way to survive," you're cherry-picking from the variety of successful strategies on display.  Evolution is an amoral process that optimizes for gene propagation and nothing else; insofar as it can claim any responsibility for altruistic tendencies, they're merely instrumental to its real "goal," and thus continued selection of them is not guaranteed when conditions change. I personally do not take survival (of me as an individual or of my genes) as my highest goal, and I am not interested in emulating what I've observed of "natural balance."

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2019, 04:53:05 am »
I guess immortality of myself counts as immortality of my genes hehe. Self-preservation is a reward-fight.
Emergent          https://openai.com/blog/

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HS

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2019, 08:09:40 am »
@WOM, Your points do seem a bit more logical than mine lol. I'll admit I'm probably being overly idealistic.

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spydaz

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2019, 12:39:07 pm »
in all fairness everybody is correct in thoughts of ethics .... Perspectivly....

If we did decide to give an AGI Ethics WHat should be the Ethics for the AI....

For me the cultural ethics apply as the ethical code of accepted behaviour or prescribed correct actions to be applied in conflicting circumstances......is the point of ethics in the first instance.....

IE: the robot has been design to protect itself from damage, as well as design itself to perform tasks better , such that even the protection of itself from damage is such a task.... given years of autonomous behaviour each robot would become an individual in its appearance as well as its behaviours... whilst working among other robots it may have been interrupted from performing a task by another robot and its task therefore either adjusting its behaviour to avoid or protect itself and still perform its primary tasks.... As such a collection of robots may have been sent to a planet to provide preparations for settlers to come......... on arrival the settlers encounter the robots and when attempting to "Turn Off" the robots as they will be no longer required as .... what would stop the robots from protecting or avoiding the settlers...

Given the robots Had the Primary ethics of Asimovs laws......

As we know from our research many ethics are contradictory.... especially when combined to form an overall Multi-Ethical Perspective... How would the robot decide? if all avoidance tactics have failed the robot? .... the conflicts in its programing .... hence an ethical code is really needed to help overcome conflicting "ORDERS"..

Its probably morally correct to give an AGI some form of "Robotic/Artificial intelligence " Type ethics......if the AGI makes its own decision which RULE to break IE: turn on the settlers.... then i would say its decided its own ethics and become "Self Aware" ..... so the danger would be NOT to give an AGI some form of Ethical Structure to effect its decisions when there is some form of conflict in its programming.....

??? Maybe ???

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AndyGoode

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Re: Formal Ethics
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2019, 02:54:08 am »
The solution is easy: We just create robots with different races/cultures, just as we have different races/cultures of humans. Then as long as those robots stay in the countries after which their ethics are copied, there should be no problems...  ;)

 


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