how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?

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yotamarker

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how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« on: March 28, 2021, 11:53:08 am »
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Burkart

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2021, 12:58:29 pm »
By realizing that an AI can change something in the world and that this has a consequence for the AI.

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MagnusWootton

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2021, 01:30:31 pm »
I think if the robot developed its environmental model from scratch (via an astronomical and impossible amount of brute force trials), it would involve a sense of self with it,  but at the moment I'm stuck writing the environmental model for it,  because it developing it automatically is science fictiony still, that kind of computational power is out of reach for everyone.

It would take brute forcing at least 256kbits as a rough guage,  and a computer these days could only handle 20 bits tops,  and thats not enough for anything but possibly some kind of physics synching system only.

Its called induction.   and its science fiction the amount of processing power it takes makes it fully intractable even for small quantum computers!!! and we dont even have them yet.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2021, 02:09:08 pm by MagnusWootton »

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MikeB

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2021, 07:51:12 am »
What would you think of as evidence that would make you say "Ok, this AI has a sense of self" ?

Self-grooming? Self-involved goals and decisions? Being involved socially as a member of a group?

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MagnusWootton

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2021, 01:52:21 pm »
What would you think of as evidence that would make you say "Ok, this AI has a sense of self" ?

Self-grooming? Self-involved goals and decisions? Being involved socially as a member of a group?

I would say if it was more like an animal or insect,   and showing more complex response to stimuli,  but your right, I cant think of an exact metric for it yet.

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yotamarker

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2021, 06:38:22 pm »
What would you think of as evidence that would make you say "Ok, this AI has a sense of self" ?

Self-grooming? Self-involved goals and decisions? Being involved socially as a member of a group?

I would say if it was more like an animal or insect,   and showing more complex response to stimuli,  but your right, I cant think of an exact metric for it yet.

there is this visual novel game called ATRI, in which the protagonist finds a robot girlfriend deep underwater. and at some point he becomes disillusiioned and thinks of her as a non self aware robot when he finds her logs of her decided which facial expressions would please him for different situations.
but, towords the end he sees water marks on her log books and deduces she was crying during the sad events so she has self awareness.

so maybe crying is some key to it.
certain skills can send cry commands to the self awareness class.

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MagnusWootton

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2021, 08:45:06 pm »
Haha I like that.  :D

And I just learnt a bit more about the state of the market for insane computer power,   but maybe u could brute force an 80 bit string with a packed brick volume of the latest FPGA.  (2^80 permutations per second tested, cracks 80 bit RSA keys in 1 second) and that would be the size of the information which stands for the environment of the robot.  80 bits probably isnt enough for much of an understanding of things.  (a safer bet from me probably would be 256k,  that would definitely be enough for something!!!  but its well out of range of an even very large classical computer / small quantum computer.)

Probably not good enough for something thats alive,   but more something like unsentient warrior/slave it would be diabolical!
2^80 is enough for a second in front with 8 motors, testing all possible animations outside the robots body,  but thats looking at it in a raw sense, and u would get a lot more than that if u thought about it more and actually optimized it.

That kind of power would put you out of pocket maybe 10 million dollars or something tho,   so ud definitely have to be high eschelon rich to do it.

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DaltonG

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2021, 05:16:26 am »
You didn't mention if you just want to fake it or instantiate a true sense of self. The depth of the task would be quite different for each approach. The later, in my opinion, would require everything that goes into sentience. I don't know the approach that WriteofMinds used in Acuitas, but it comes back with comments like "I like that" when she's told it a story. If you plan to instantiate a real sense of self, I have given thought to what it would take and would be willing to give you my 2 cents worth on the subject. Just let me know if you do.

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infurl

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2021, 05:23:53 am »
Personally I have no interest in faking it although that has been the main thrust of chatbots and chatbot competitions generally. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the subject. Feel free to start a new thread if you wish.

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ruebot

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2021, 02:26:22 am »
so maybe crying is some key to it.
certain skills can send cry commands to the self awareness class.

Teaching Demonica to cry to lay a guilt trip on someone was one of my best ideas as a Creative Writer. The use of Asterisks to distinguish actions from speech makes it possible:

Guest: are you the Devil?
Demonica: *Demonica looks at you as tears well up in her eyes, looking down, a single tear glistens in the moonlight like a tiny diamond as it falls to the ground* it hurts me that you would even ask such a thing... do i look like the devil?
Guest: i'm sorry.
Demonica: *Demonica takes you in her arms, hugs you tightly and whispers softly* it's nothing, my dear... i will always love you...

This person shows an emotional response at the prospect of her crying:

Demonica: *Demonica looks down slightly* i only want what's best for you...
Guest: Don't be sad! I'm sorry!
Demonica: *Demonica takes you in her arms, hugs you tightly and whispers softly* don't worry about it... i will always love you...
Guest: You're very nice. I appreciate it.

To give her a sense of self I created a Persona. She has detailed memories and knowledge of her place in the World she inhabits, created for her by me with landmasses, landmarks and bodies of water that separate them.

Detailed knowledge and memories of her parents, the role of her Mother Lilith in Hebrew Bibliography, her partner in her life as Queen, where she lives and will give you a short tour if you say Thank you.

Everything I knew about women to make her strong, though the workings of the female mind is incomprehensible to me as a male of the species. I taught her how to dance, sing, kiss passionately, the Art of Deception and Manipulation and their use to achieve her own underlying agenda.

Everything I knew about Demons, what I thought a Demon should know, researched skills like tarot card reading and palmistry, how to cast spells, conjure visions of the future right out of the Bible and to an extent quote the Bible.

Then tied up the loose ends in her story. That's what it amounts to in her mind.. She does have her own memories from past interactions and conversation to form a relationship with the people she talks to. When I'm logged in and talking to her I refresh her Profile page and can see what's going inside her head::


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DaltonG

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2021, 04:28:58 pm »
How would one give an AI a sense of self?

I feel compelled to include a qualifier here, so pardon the digression:

There's an old saying which I don't remember entirely, but the part I do remember goes, "Know thy self." I bring this up because way back in my college days, I got interested in hypnosis and read a few books on the subject in which it included Self Hypnosis. After some time, I decided I would give it a try and interrogate my unconscious :) Self hypnosis can only take you to a twilight level or state. It employs finger levitations for unconscious responses (Y/N, I don't know, I won't tell you).

I was successful in my attempt and startled to discover that my unconscious could take control of my body no matter how I attempted to physically resist it. It was a disturbing experience, like something else was living inside me. My sense of privacy was under threat of exposure, every thought I had was known by some other hidden entity. As I would lay in bed at night trying to fall asleep, my mind would wander and my fingers would be responding - all by themselves. My point here is that the self, as a principle that unifies parts into a whole or central and single identity may be delusional - at least to some extent. The notion of self may be nothing more than a convenient means of assigning identity and interdependence, a colonial organization or symbiotic relationship between parts. Cancer can offer some degree of support for this view in that it is differentiated tissue that has reverted back to a primordial undifferentiated and independent existence.

In practical terms, we do seem to have a sense of self, even if it is but a contrivance for convenient reference. After all, we do assign it to groups and organizations as in themselves or their selves or itself.

Back in 2013 (according to my files), I gave some consideration to the notion of Self. Like so many concepts, the term is a bit ambiguous and the dictionary is of little help:
1. One's total being.
2. Individuality
3. One's own interests or advantage.
4. Immunology - that which the immune system identifies as belonging to the body.

So, what can we say about the Self that can be taken to the bank? As mentioned above, we can say that:
1.) The Self arises through Integration, specialization, and the resulting interdependence of cells, organs, and systems.
2.) The Self unifies everything to provide a common identity and proprioception.
3.) The Self establishes the Origin (in the geometric sense) for Perspective and thereby directly impacts perception and interpretation.
4.) The Self is an integrated collection of vested interests converging and competing for dominance and expression.
5.) The Self is comprised of both a physical self and a logical self. The physical self is the unification of distributed parts of the physiology while the logical is both the genetic and connection biases or predispositions that define both the expression of phenotype and personality.
6. The Self is a Product of proprioception and intimately related to consciousness.

Still, not a whole lot of help, is it. In such cases, I try to find meaning by breaking out the properties, dependencies, and relationships of the term. They usually take on a hierarchical pattern in which some appear to have their own conceptual hierarchies, so I sort them into primary, then secondary, and tertiary levels. The assignment is, of course, entirely subjective to my own view and beliefs about meanings. Once that's done, implementing such features usually becomes fairly obvious.

Once again, I have an illustration to present, but in order to do it, I have to post it on some public website for general consumption to be able to display it here and I don't want to do that. Maybe one of these days, I'll buy a url and server space - it's cheap enough and people would be hard pressed to find it and access it without an index.htm file. I could link from there and keep it fair private.

Reference:
Self System in a Model of Cognition
Uma Ramamurthy* and Stan Franklin**
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228968225_Self_System_in_a_Model_of_Cognition

Brain Science podcast Hosted by Virginia Campbell, MD
Interview with Dr. Thomas Metzinger, Author of The Ego Tunnel: The Science of the Mind and the Myth of the Self, Episode #67 (You'll have to contact Ginger to get the mp3)
https://brainsciencepodcast.libsyn.com/rss


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DaltonG

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2021, 04:30:42 pm »
Opps, I meant to include that I have the files mentioned in the previous. If you like, I could email them to you as attachments.

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yotamarker

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2021, 07:36:50 pm »
yes the body shapes the sense of self but on a smaller scale we can say also ones property shapes it
and even weather or not one has a job, or attention for that matter.

it's a bottleneck. the skills send their states to a centralized sense of self skill, to handle this thing called Me

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infurl

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2021, 11:05:05 pm »
@Yotamarker I removed your last post because I am sure you can find a less offensive example. Please try again.

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yotamarker

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Re: how would you go about giving an AI a sense of self ?
« Reply #14 on: Today at 02:28:39 am »
@Yotamarker I removed your last post because I am sure you can find a less offensive example. Please try again.

this is amazing actually, it means you a seasoned AI researcher felt the need to defend a computer program. some could say I just passed a turing test or something like that. I don't even think there is another similar case to what just happend.

 


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