[yotamarker]

currently we are translating it into python :
https://jizz.is/threads/chiis-python-suit-scrum.7/

[frankinstien]

I'm sure the perception of time does color the experience, but I don't see why that would make the experience impossible without it.
In any case, what I was getting at is that I believe you can feel (for example) pain without thinking self-reflectively about it and being able to say "I am feeling pain" to yourself.

But you know what part of your body the pain came from, so there is self-reflection. Self-reflection is where you realize a thought, it doesn't have to translate into words.

[WriterOfMinds]

When I try to imagine the state I'm talking about here, the thing that comes to mind is a fever dream -- in which I'm extremely uncomfortable, but my higher reasoning is so submerged that I can't process or think about the discomfort. In that case I probably don't know which part of my body it's in, at least not clearly.

[frankinstien]

When I try to imagine the state I'm talking about here, the thing that comes to mind is a fever dream -- in which I'm extremely uncomfortable, but my higher reasoning is so submerged that I can't process or think about the discomfort. In that case I probably don't know which part of my body it's in, at least not clearly.

That sounds more like not being fully awake where cortical areas are still in a dream state, at best what you describe is not being fully conscious to the extent of your brain's cognitive abilities. But I would not call that a state of consciousness, more like a state of booting up. Granted that neural circuits can operate without awareness, but that's not consciousness, since neural circuits create the state of consciousness where consciousness is not aware of those circuits, so, yes a neural circuit can operate independently of other circuits. With that said, what you describe, the sense or state of qualia isn't interpreted, albeit, the neural signaling of such qualia can be there that activates circuits, but the sense of its quality is not cognitively recognized as a state of avoidance or reward. So, it's subconscious, meaning it's neurally processed to some degree but not a form of consciousness, more like a robotic reflex. 

[WriterOfMinds]

So, it's subconscious, meaning it's neurally processed to some degree but not a form of consciousness, more like a robotic reflex. 

Given that I am in fact suffering in the state I describe, I would say that's far more than a robotic reflex. A reflex is an action/behavior. I'm talking about an experience.

Edit: I would agree that it might be "subconscious" in the same sense that dream states generally are. However, dream states are experienced and therefore still entail phenomenal consciousness.

[frankinstien]

Given that I am in fact suffering in the state I describe, I would say that's far more than a robotic reflex. A reflex is an action/behavior. I'm talking about an experience.

Edit: I would agree that it might be "subconscious" in the same sense that dream states generally are. However, dream states are experienced and therefore still entail phenomenal consciousness.

The term reflex was used to describe the process as independent neural processing that does not integrate into consciousness and while biologically it is an experience in terms of cells doing something it is not a conscious state. Most dreams are not remembered since the Hippocampus is shut down while sleeping, however, there are exceptions where the Hippocampus is active and an individual can remember the dream. Only when short-term memory is active is the dream an experience, furthering my assertion that the perception of qualia still requires memory and a sense of time.

Edit: The need to have the Hippocampus for a dream to be an experience is the need to separate events chronologically.  This gives the dream the quality of cause and effect, where what you do in a dream has consequences.

[WriterOfMinds]

Chronological event separation, cause and effect awareness, etc. are necessary for a dream to be or have a narrative. They are not necessary for qualic experience/sentience/phenomenal consciousness. These are categorically different things, and I don't even understand why you're conflating them. The raw sensation of pain (as experienced subjectively and internally) is compelling whether or not I'm capable of fitting it into a story.

[frankinstien]

Chronological event separation, cause and effect awareness, etc. are necessary for a dream to be or have a narrative. They are not necessary for qualic experience/sentience/phenomenal consciousness. These are categorically different things, and I don't even understand why you're conflating them. The raw sensation of pain (as experienced subjectively and internally) is compelling whether or not I'm capable of fitting it into a story.

But experiencing the pain is a story. IMO the concept of phenomenal consciousness is flawed in that the term consciousness is used and confuses the intelligence of neural circuits that can be very smart and even carry out workflows or pipelines but don't integrate into consciousness.  The circuits can turn on facial expressions and vocalizations where those that witness a person under such a state assume they are conscious or are under a form of consciousness but it's simply smart circuits activating the learned workflow. This has been recorded of those whose Hippocampus has been severely damaged or removed, and when asked to perform a task they have learned before the damage to their brains happened, can actually perform it, sequencing all actions as if they are fully aware but after they finished or are interrupted and asked: "What are you doing" they don't have a clue and are completely confused that they were asked such a question. Or an even sadder example; are those with such short-term memory problems as they look down on the tray with a plate of food and are so surprised at witnessing the food. They take a bite and then look down again only to be surprised that a plate of food is on the tray, not remembering they had just taken a bite.  Without self-reflection there is no consciousness, it is simply smart circuits activating in a robotic way.

[WriterOfMinds]

What you're describing now is something that happens in the person's brain without being experienced by the person. That is not at all what I've been talking about. The things that I'm describing are experienced, just not in a narrative or self-reflective way -- only in a sensory way. The foggy discomfort of a fever has no necessary story, no localization, no knowledge of cause, no discrete events. When I'm in it, I might not be able to think "I'm in pain" ... I might not even be able to conceptualize "I" ... but I still have an awareness of the pain. It's not something that goes on outside my notice.

And if I can't remember it later, that doesn't mean I wasn't aware of it as it was occurring.

We seem to be talking past each other, so I'm going to leave it here. Perhaps you have trouble imagining such conscious states, and that is why you are unwilling to admit they could exist.

[frankinstien]

We seem to be talking past each other, so I'm going to leave it here. Perhaps you have trouble imagining such conscious states, and that is why you are unwilling to admit they could exist.

I'm sorry but you just said you experienced pain which is a discrete event, that you may not be able to fully activate all of your cognitive abilities to address the issue means you were impaired in some way. This would also include your ability to interpret the stimuli, pain, so you're not experiencing pain as a fully conscious event. This reminds me of dreams where they become very negative and then I slowly wake up to realize that I'm suffering from indigestion. So, I didn't really experience pain as such and the neural circuits creating my dream were affected by the pain signals. This is what I mean by smart circuits, they take on their own role with or without cognitive awareness of the stimuli.

[WriterOfMinds]

This would also include your ability to interpret the stimuli, pain, so you're not experiencing pain as a fully conscious event.

I still think we might just have term confusion. To me, "experience" and "phenomenal consciousness" are synonymous. If your concept of "consciousness" lards on a bunch of other things then that's fine, that just makes it something different from phenomenal consciousness. What I'm trying to say is that the ability to interpret the event is not necessary to have an experience of the event. If you agree that I did experience pain despite being unable to interpret it (due to impairment), then we're fine here.
However, if you think there's no middle ground between "not experienced" and "fully interpretable by the higher reasoning functions," I'll have to disagree. I can easily imagine the internal subjective experience of a stimulus -- what it "feels like" to have certain signals arrive inside the brain -- without the cascade of follow-on effects like putting a name to it, locating it in time or sequence, remembering it, etc.

[frankinstien]

if I could somehow see hear smell taste touch via other ppls senses, AND control their bodies
do we share the same consciousness ?

When I read statements like the one above, the term phenomenal consciousness is filled with misnomers. To say that if two different processors extract information from the same sensor do they share the same experience? Where even if they have identical configurations and hardware there are differences because of their geospatial environment and differences even in their hardware manufacturing where there are variances. Where things like latency, power surges, and noise will play a part in the processing of a signal. But with biological brains, it's even more distinct because the environment has much more noise and each system is wired uniquely. So, the only things they share are the sensors and motor controls. Each one's ability to process the information from those sensors is unique. So, they don't share the same experience, inclusive of the quality of the information they receive from the sensors.

This point can be further validated by split-brain disorders where the corpus callosum is served and each hemisphere of the brain actually experiences a different perspective!  They can even disagree one things like their sexuality and belief in god!

[frankinstien]

Here's a link that explains phenomenal consciousness, and it does involve awareness. The article actually falls well in line as to why I've modeled emotions for an AI, so it can feel itself experience life.

[MagnusWootton]

I know that it seems like Ai isnt complete without consciousness,   but just look at all the pain involved with having consciousness!!!   there's a mighty responsability there to make sure this "robots artificially but real wired nervous system" is made correctly or your just creating hell.

Just look what happens to us,   what happiness is there in life really, its just never ending torment.

The robots I make,  will not be conscious, and thats how I like it,  I don't see it as an inferior theory lacking it at all.

[infurl]

what happiness is there in life really

The greatest happiness is found in helping others.