[infurl]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2021/apr/27/the-clockwork-universe-is-free-will-an-illusion

This is what Harris means when he declares that, on close inspection, it’s not merely that free will is an illusion, but that the illusion of free will is itself an illusion: watch yourself closely, and you don’t even seem to be free. “If one pays sufficient attention,” he told me by email, “one can notice that there’s no subject in the middle of experience – there is only experience. And everything we experience simply arises on its own.” This is an idea with roots in Buddhism, and echoed by others, including the philosopher David Hume: when you look within, there’s no trace of an internal commanding officer, autonomously issuing decisions. There’s only mental activity, flowing on. Or as Arthur Rimbaud wrote, in a letter to a friend in 1871: “I am a spectator at the unfolding of my thought; I watch it, I listen to it.”

What a fascinating read this is.
Don't expect any simple answers though.

[MagnusWootton]

I don't pay it much importance,  saying there is no free will is because of determinism being true,  but other than that, its best if u know that u have a choice inside determinism.

If u think its too important it might send u a bit mad.      =)

[infurl]

I don't pay it much importance,  saying there is no free will is because of determinism being true,  but other than that, its best if u know that u have a choice inside determinism.

If u think its too important it might send u a bit mad.      =)

You pretty much nailed it. According to the laws of physics as we understand them, there is no free-will because the universe is deterministic, but on a level that is below our ability to perceive it. That means that we will never be able to do better than estimate what might happen ahead of time. We cannot know what we are going to decide in any given situation until we have made a decision, even though that decision is predetermined, so for all practical purposes we must behave as though we have free will and people who obsess about it too much do tend to go a bit mad(der).

The reason that I posted this very interesting article though is because I think it has parallels in the debate about consciousness and that is a subject that is very important to many of the people here. 

[MagnusWootton]

Im heavily into Ai,  but consciousness is something I avoid like cyborgism.    I'm fairly decided about the fact that computers and Ai are soulless,   not because I know for sure,  but because I'm avoiding the fact because I dont WANT to make a soul!   It would be quite horrible to do so, considering how miserable us humans lives are...   

[HS]

Who’s to say that only the smallest detectable particles get to determine the rules? If we find yet smaller particles, should we claim that their properties are now the absolute truth, and previously accepted physics was only illusory? Wouldn’t it be just as plausible to say that the nature of bigger things (like brains which have created free will) would have equally valid claims of controlling atoms, just as atoms control brains? Neither phenomenon completely controls the other, but each has some influence, best case scenario really.


Pratchett expressed this in a cool way:

I am a spectator at the unfolding of my thought; I watch it, I listen to it.

That’s the trouble with trying to detach yourself from the world. To my eyes, this looks like a cognitive bias resulting from the commonly expressed concept of being a soul, and having a body.

Haha! I’m on a roll today. But perhaps I’d better go to sleep... Take that, atoms! I have spoken.

[yotamarker]

doesn't really explain why people travel abroad to different places

[MagnusWootton]

Haha! I’m on a roll today. But perhaps I’d better go to sleep... Take that, atoms! I have spoken.

I hate atoms.

[infurl]

doesn't really explain why people travel abroad to different places

Travel makes you happy.

I travel a lot and I'm very happy. I haven't been back to my own country for years.

[Korrelan]

We are proof that reality is ultimately deterministic at the lowest level of abstraction.

If this wasn't the case, any form of prediction would fail.

 

[MagnusWootton]

We are proof that reality is ultimately deterministic at the lowest level of abstraction.

If this wasn't the case, any form of prediction would fail.

 

Yep, thats the problem with miracles, sure u need em, but then u cant perform any form of logical experiment at all, so u hate them as much as u beg for them.

[yotamarker]

doesn't really explain why people travel abroad to different places

Travel makes you happy.

I travel a lot and I'm very happy. I haven't been back to my own country for years.

but you used free will to choose where to travel to.
cannibals are happy when they eat people, so your answer doesn't disprove free will. tho I also don't believe in free will existing
to that point, being happy makes you happy, but doesn't free will keep you from snorting cocain while some others choose to snort cocaine ?

[Korrelan]

but doesn't free will keep you from snorting cocain while some others choose to snort cocaine ?

No... At the 'mind' level of abstraction, you are literally the sum of your experiences/ learning.

Any thought/ decision is made by your sub-conscious (based on your own subjective experiences/ learning) before you become consciously aware of the process/ construct.

Though you may feel/ perceive you are consciously making the decision, you are not... its already been made.

But... the decision is being made by your unique sub-conscious, so you do own the decision, and you can expand your experiences/ learning to help your sub-conscious make better informed decisions.

Your mind is your greatest asset... be careful what you feed it... junk in = junk out.

 

[MagnusWootton]

I think the opposite,  if we didnt have free will we wouldnt have the pointless opportunity to make a decision that is always to our detriment!!!

[Korrelan]

I think the opposite

And with due respect... that's your problem... and the point of this conversation.

It's the underlying premiss behind stories, books, parental teachings, wise men and mentors, to learn from the previous generations mistakes/ advances, to move humanity forward.

You are a deterministic construct experiencing a deterministic reality, just the fact that you have read what I have written will affect/ influence your sub-conscious... whether you want it to or not.

 

[MagnusWootton]

Just a note about your signiature "I think therefore I am"
That means your conscious, because u am.     But I wonder if we ever get to putting out these hardcore super intelligent robots, what if they dont need a soul to compute almost as well as us,  that it might be "I compute therefore I am but I dont have a soul"    Itll be strange if u ever get to the point where a machine seems to understand itself in a conversation,  that would be wierd, because I would probably think that its soulless.    But you can kill a machine the same way you kill a human,  derezzing its memory.  (Oblivionism.)