[Ultron]

It's actually not as bad-ass and HOLYF*CK as the title suggests, but a mind-blowing phenomenon to study nonetheless.


http://www.physics-astronomy.com/2015/01/a-pulsar-just-got-swallowed-by-warp-in.html#.VQBX5NLF8sE

[Art]

Cheif<misspelling>researcher Joeri van Leeuwen from the Netherlands Institute for Radio Astronomy projects that the star will come back into sight in less than 160 years.

Wow! Just imagine...only 160 years give or take 10-20 years and we can all see it come back into view. OK...well maybe not ALL of us...but some! OK...maybe not SOME...but a few! OK...maybe a couple! Alright just 1 person!. Nope! None of us that are now here!

I know!! Your cloned, mind-uploaded self will be able to view it in 160 years! Yeah...but that really does you no good at all...does it! Drat!!
Why should my botizen have all the fun?!! That's it! I'm out of here!!

[Freddy]

I like stuff like this, thanks for posting 

[Ultron]

Glad to know there is people here with a taste for Astronomy like me

Anyway Art... I suppose we can take this to 'the stream of mind' - Would this 'clone' be you, in the sense of consciousness or will it be a clone? It is, actually very hard to form this question... Truly mind-blowing... I do hope you get the point...

[Art]

Either way it would not benefit me in any sense of the word. There is only one "You" and even IF your memories and everything about you could be transferred to another "You" (clone), it would still not be you, the one and only, original Ultron unit!

Point is, you would never benefit from having a clone of yourself unless the sole purpose of it was as a potential donor or organs, tissue, blood, limbs, etc., in case of a horrible accident or stricken with a disease (in which case, what's to say the clone wouldn't posses the same characteristics?).
At this point, we also get involved in the myriad of legal and moral issues, not to mention those "Clone's Rights Advocates!"
Soon you'd see the tops of pitchforks and torches outside your windows!! 

[Ultron]

You know, when I think about the future I actually never consider 'legal' issues... Sometimes I even leave the 'ethics' of the whole idea as a last topic of discussion (or thinking).

But you are right - it is complicated, to say the least. Would the clone be actually you? Should it inherit all of your rights and respect you have earned? I know you disagree, but it is your opinion. To be honest I am not sure what I think... I guess some things you just have to feel on your own skin and see with your own eyes....

As for organs, I think baby cells (forgot the name), artificially grown and semi-organic replacement organs are promising and a more viable solution as opposed to cloning yourself.

[Art]

I think your referring to "Stem Cells" and yes, they are the topic here in the USA of some controversy.

As for your Clone, even if you could transfer your memories to it, the clone would not be you and you would not be able to reap any benefits of or from it (other than perhaps a little bit of pride). You could see yourself as others see you! Or at least the 3D mirror life size image of you.

It might get to inherit your thoughts (perhaps), memories, likes / dislikes, etc., but with it's own brain, sooner or later it would begin to form it's own thoughts and memories and associations, thus biologically "pushing" itself a bit farther away from the now or present you.

You, would not experience anything that was now in it's brain so the whole idea of living forever is a True/False scenario at the same time! A impossible possibility...a contradiction of terms. You yes, but Not you! It can see through your "eyes" via it's memory of your memories but you can not see what it is now seeing of it's own, newly created ones.

You will die and it will live on, looking and perhaps even acting a bit like you for a while, but becoming it's own unique person, much like identical twins develop individual personalities.

A most interesting subject but not really the answer for immortality. Now that Schwarzenegger movie, The 6th Day!, That was a clone's nightmare! Although I think Hollywood took it over the top somewhat!

Scientists recently said they now believe a (don't get grossed out), head transplant is entirely possible!
Hmmm...Old head on new healthy body...good for 60 more years! Hmmm...we can only hope not!

[Ultron]

Stem cells, right! Couldn't remember the term.


Yes well I suppose that seems logical - the clone will immediately become different once it is created, since from the beginning you start to see at say a certain person from a different angle (simple example - among many others). But I suppose the discussion is whether the clone will be 'you' in some way (other then physical) at a given moment in the space-time continuum.


It is also the seemingly logical conclusion that the clone, although an exact and ideal copy in every sense of the word, is not 'you'. But think harder... Think just a little bit deeper and ask this question or try to answer it just a bit differently... Think until you get confused, because it s not until then that you will find yourself in the middle of the truth - being sure is impossible in this case and thus you would be misled if you think so.


And yes I read the head-transplant articles (there was quite a few)... It is weird and would seem to surely cause psychological trauma as a side-effect, among other possibilities.

[Art]

I sometimes explain it like doing a routine "Copy & Paste". This produces an identical version of the original AND it leaves the Original completely intact.

The Cut / Paste example likewise produces an identical version of the original , however, the original is Destroyed, lost, no longer viable nor visible.

If you Clone a person, you have done a Copy and Paste operation. The original remains intact and you have, for a brief instance, an identical copy.

As soon as the Clone forms it's first, unique memory, regardless of the topic, it is no longer the same as the original.

From every thought, experience - joyful or painful, happy or sad, good or bad, the clone is forming new memories, and memories are what shape us as humans. From this point onward, the clone is rapidly becoming it's own person.

It may look like the original (think identical twins), and this is as close as it will ever get to being you or like you but it will never be you (or return to being what you were a second before it became it's own person.

Actually we don't quite know enough about cloning, since human cloning is not allowed (yet). The clones also do not or would not develop in hours or days like they do in the Hollywood movies, but would take years to grow and develop.
Likely, it would never be equal to you or as old as you currently are. While it might have all your DNA and genes, etc., it will develop it's own personality and inner self.

Again, the clone of you would never benefit you as your DNA was Copied and Pasted, not Moved into a newer body but with your same brain.

Lots to ponder....

[Ultron]

I only wish it was so simple, Art. This goes beyond cloning. I also wish I would be wise enough to be able to explain what I mean simply.


But maybe you are right - at this point, it seems like the logical conclusion and might remain as such. Currently reminding myself about that tear-blasting scene from Star Trek: Nemesis, when Data sacrifices himself in order to save the Enterprise (E, anyway). Previously they had found a prototype version - his predecessor, to which he transferred all of his logs (experiences and literally everything else). Sadly, that was the last scene, but it is the closest I can get to showing you what I mean.


The question is, can Data now continue to exist, just in a new body? Is it like a slug moving to another shell, or is it a cloned version of the dead slug, in a new shell?


P.S. Sorry if the last paragraph disguised you.

[ivan.moony]

It depends on technology you use. If you make a genetic clone of yourself with today's technology, I think there would be completely another soul in your clone, independent of your soul.

However, I wouldn't be surprised that one day, when the life phenomena would be explained, we could make a machine which could teleport your soul (that point in your mind that says "I am") to whatever suitable another body.

Now questions arise: what kind of body could hold souls? Can it be a body that has completely different input sensors and output limbs than regular human bodies? Can a new body be a form of advanced energy embodiment, such that we can change shape and appearance of ourselves once we slip in? Can we feed our new body with solar energy or some other electric source? And finally, what is a lifetime of a possible energy body?

But I think, parallel with life phenomena explanation, other two mysteries would be uncovered:
1. where where we before we  came into this body?
2. where we are going after we use this body and die?
Not sure yet, but I think that the answers should be rather interesting. Then we will have to answer the question: do we want to "live" forever?

[Art]

In your (the) Data example, it would be a cloned version of the dead slug, in a new shell.

Here's the big difference: they had found a prototype version - his predecessor, to which they transferred all of his logs (experiences and literally everything else).

Since Data was an advanced android, his body was basically a machine and these data logs, memory chips, etc.,that were transferred, made up who Data actually was in his previous persona.

A clone of US, doesn't have any of our memory or daily logs transferred...only the DNA that makes us who we are with respect to race, gender, physical build, makeup, hair & eye color, etc. The clone might look exactly like us but that's where the similarities would stop, for the most part. As it's brain develops, it too might like or have an affinity for similar interests that you, the original person, had like classical music, poetry, sports, hobbies, etc.

Interesting topic but again, we've slipped from the Pulsar and got sucked into the Clone Zone!

[Ultron]

Interesting topic but again, we've slipped from the Pulsar and got sucked into the Clone Zone!

Actually I don't care - the pulsar topic wasn't as appealing, but this one is - so why kill it? Now let's carry on...


The android Data would continue to live (in a new body) if all of his data was transferred - not just memories. I am not sure of the specifics and the fictional software architecture of the android however, judging by how the movie flowed after that moment, I can almost be sure that not everything was transferred, whatever that includes.


Now regarding humans or rather, organic lifeforms - how are we different from this fictional android? Emotions... Nah, I believe emotions, while mostly a psychological phenomena would not be the same without the associated physical phenomena (caused by certain chemicals - proteins, hormones etc.) such as accelerated heart rate, tears etc. And when you think about it, it shouldn't be hard at all to simulate all these physical phenomena to their psychological counterparts within an artificial life form, as long as you have the software or 'psychology' worked out.


So to sum it up - we are no different from the fictional android. And what makes 'the soul' or one's spirit? As much as I would love those to be a mystery and a phenomena unexplainable with our current knowledge, logic sort-of dictates that it could be nothing more then 'software' (that can be emulated easily) but with a very specific 'driver' set for the 'hardware' - specifically, our nervous system is a little more complex than the centered architecture style of computers (CPU) - we are very specifically and uniquely 'wired' through neurons and the blood that a 'mind' transplant would nearly be impossible unless put into an identical copy of ourselves from that exact same moment (which is FYI, impossible - still, anyway...).


I guess my recent and deep human biology studies have proven useful. But for those who dislike biology, think in terms of moving a chipset into a different motherboard or attempting to mount a processor into an incompatible socket. And also try to see each organism as one with a unique 'socket'.

[Art]

Right on! But think...if you made a clone of yourself when you were 45 (arbitrary age where you should be able to set aside some clone money), your clone would barely graduate High School when you've retired...that is, unless you discover a method of accelerating the clone's growth without jeopardizing it's development!

Of course, it's DNA and your DNA would be identical, but the development, as mentioned, would be unique to each individual.

Bet you both would like similar looking women, music, cars, hobbies, books, school subjects. This is merely speculation but I would almost wager a lot would be fulfilled!

Another part of me hopes that cloning never comes to pass!

[Ultron]

Nope, I disagree. You cannot accelerate the clones growth / development. Actually, all you may accelerate is the rate at which his physique/cells grows/multiply but not his 'development' in terms of intellect, as you cannot accelerate the rate at which he gains experiences in life.


As said before, this type of cloning may be used as to grow a body which would act as a 'spare parts' body, but this is highly unethical and a whole new level of savage.


The cloning method I was referring to does not exist yet - it involves instantly creating a copy of an organism at that same moment. I suppose this would be no problem once we have Star Trek-like transporters, as they are basically a combination of a scanner, demolecularizer and a replicator - your chemical composition and structure is scanned (stored as data), you are disassembled and then once again 'assembled'/'synthesized'/created/replicated (wow) once the data reaches the target.


I think you get the idea...