Artificial Womb

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frankinstien

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2020, 09:34:45 PM »
You do not have to like them or accept them but these are not my words so do not take issue with me. These words are credited to someone else.

OK...But where in the Bible does it prescribe the right vegetables and fruits or for that matter plant material that can be used as antibiotics, pain killers, and anti-inflammatories? Neanderthals did consume such material...

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2020, 09:47:26 PM »
@Ivan: I appreciate the apology, but I also think you worry about me a little too much maybe? You're doing okay.

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So without other technology to evaluate tissue health and formation dissection was the best means. The only real ethical question should be were the lambs put down humanely?

Unless you're talking about an animal suffering from a terminal illness, "put down humanely" is an oxymoron. There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn't want to die.

And it seems to me that there are plenty of non-lethal ways they could have checked the quality of results. Ultrasound, X-ray, small biopsies, simply observing the newly "born" lambs to see how healthy they were over time ...

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Doing tests (cryonics, implants, mutants, etc) on animals can help humans live much longer than what we're used to. ... If we're all just machines, then, none it matters, testing on them help us progress to the Darwinian survival in evolution final result - the most advanced planet made of regenerative nanobots.

Don't kill any animals on the chance that the research will extend my life somehow. I'd prefer to die at the usual time.

If whether animals suffer and die doesn't matter, then whether we reach the final stage of evolution doesn't matter either. Without compassion and heroism and selflessness, survival is useless. You can keep your nanobot planet; I don't want it.

@Art: Despite the verses you have taken out of context and cherry-picked to display here, the Bible as a whole does not teach that killing and eating animals is an ideal lifestyle for humans. The ultimate teaching of the Bible is selfless love, which is incompatible with killing for self-indulgence. And nowadays, most meat consumption is a self-indulgence rather than a necessity. I have read the entire Bible and studied it a fair bit, so if you really want to argue this with me, I could say a great deal more than that.

And as far as saving the lives of fetal humans goes ... for now, I'll keep putting my money and support toward unplanned pregnancy/adoption services and ultrasound-mobiles. Rescuing babies from abortion doesn't have the same cool factor as artificial womb research, but it also doesn't involve any fresh animal testing, so I'd rather apply my resources there.

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ivan.moony

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2020, 10:02:33 PM »
If any of you want to have animal experiments, do it on me instead on them. I'm sorry, I'm not capable of transferring my service on other beings, including my potential kids, but you can have me if you want. I'm not kidding, send me a personal message, and we'll arrange the experiments you want to conduct on me. I'll ask no questions, but just don't touch any other beings, that's all I ask from you.

Choose me to butcher, not others, please, I'm begging you.

I'm waiting patiently for any such personal message.
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frankinstien

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2020, 11:33:05 PM »
Unless you're talking about an animal suffering from a terminal illness, "put down humanely" is an oxymoron. There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn't want to die.

No, you're wrong and millions of pet owners know what I'm talking about when their pet is suffering from a horribly painful illness they op to have the animal put to sleep. When the animal is injected you can see it just fall to sleep painlessly. Just so you know, I have witnessed a very horrible death of one of my pets by some A-hole that poisoned him with Decon rat poison. We were walking the dogs in the hills, which I do daily, and this one day the dog didn't follow the pack, as I turned to see where he was I couldn't find him. I called out and then finally decided to look for him. As I climbed the hill I spotted him under a bush, panting, so I figured he was tired, it was a little hot out.  I walked over and checked him out to make sure there weren't any injuries and there were none. I tried to call him to get to follow us back to the car but he still wouldn't leave his spot. I eventually had to carry him back, he's well over a hundred pounds so it was very difficult especially where the trails were very steep. I eventually had to lay him down as I was getting tired. That's when I noticed he couldn't move his hind legs as he tried to get up and walk the remaining distance to the car, he trembled with fear because he couldn't move his legs. He laid back down on his side where he then began to move his front legs as if trying to run away, in his last breath he howled as to the agonizing pain he was in and then died. I couldn't figure out what happened I was so confused. When I brought him back and lay him down I noticed that his upper gum was bleeding, then I noticed several other drops of blood beading on his gums, that's when I realized he had been poisoned. There were no symptoms prior to going to the hills and is one of the problems with Decon poisons is they may not show any signs in pets until it's too late.  I buried the dog and after 30 days from the dog's death, someone placed a chewing on the back fence, which is composed of wooden planks. The chewing was in an unusual form, someone had formed it at one end by soaking it in hot water and squeezing one end so it could fit between the wooden planks of the fence, and it was also formed to reassemble a phallic shape! That's when I realized someone was sending me a message. That day changed my life forever...

And it seems to me that there are plenty of non-lethal ways they could have checked the quality of results. Ultrasound, X-ray, small biopsies, simply observing the newly "born" lambs to see how healthy they were over time ...

I don't see how you can make that statement. A visual inspection of organs for an experiment like that is called for and warranted. Ultrasound can hide things because they can be in a shadow area, Xrays are useless for soft tissue and a biopsy is too limited of an inspection.

And as far as saving the lives of fetal humans goes ... for now, I'll keep putting my money and support toward unplanned pregnancy/adoption services and ultrasound-mobiles. Rescuing babies from abortion doesn't have the same cool factor as artificial womb research, but it also doesn't involve any fresh animal testing, so I'd rather apply my resources there.

The womb is for babies that are born prematurely but are still alive, not for aborted fetuses...

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2020, 12:02:14 AM »
Unless you're talking about an animal suffering from a terminal illness, "put down humanely" is an oxymoron. There is no humane way to kill someone who doesn't want to die.

No, you're wrong and millions of pet owners know what I'm talking about when their pet is suffering from a horribly painful illness they op to have the animal put to sleep. When the animal is injected you can see it just fall to sleep painlessly.

I said "UNLESS you're talking about an animal suffering from a terminal illness." Did you miss that? There's no indication that the lambs in the experiment were killed to release them from pain; more likely, they were killed for supposed human benefit. And if their deaths were painless that doesn't justify it. Death is bad in and of itself.

I'm sorry about your dog. That sounds awful.

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The womb is for babies that are born prematurely but are still alive, not for aborted fetuses...

I know. My point was that if we're excited about saving the lives of fetal babies, preventing abortions is the ethically sound low-hanging fruit to focus on. Better to invest in that than invest in an effort that involves killing lambs.

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frankinstien

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2020, 12:10:10 AM »
I said "UNLESS you're talking about an animal suffering from a terminal illness." Did you miss that? There's no indication that the lambs in the experiment were killed to release them from pain; more likely, they were killed for supposed human benefit. And if their deaths were painless that doesn't justify it. Death is bad in and of itself.

I don't think you get the point that the animals had to be put down to continue the experiment, did you miss that?...

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2020, 12:18:49 AM »
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I don't think you get the point that the animals had to be put down to continue the experiment, did you miss that?...

I thought I made it fairly clear that if that is truly the case, I'm not convinced the experiment was worth it.

Edit: and maybe I should emphasize that I'm not trying to diss you for posting it here; what the research team did to replicate the womb environment was certainly interesting. But I also think that silent one, ivan, and myself have the right to our reservations about the impact on the test subjects.

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frankinstien

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2020, 04:17:42 AM »
The ultimate teaching of the Bible is selfless love, which is incompatible with killing for self-indulgence. And nowadays, most meat consumption is a self-indulgence rather than a necessity. I have read the entire Bible and studied it a fair bit, so if you really want to argue this with me, I could say a great deal more than that.

The context by which you state the Bible as teaching Selfless love is in ACCURATE. The Bible's teaching is ultimately "OBEDIENCE TO GOD". The first commandment is to love God above all. This is why Moses could command the execution of 3,000 Levites and the execution of children(teenagers), Numbers 31 and to take the females as slaves! Where Moses' generals were reluctant to do because the children were not part of the army that the Hebrews fought to take over the holy land.

DO NOT distort the cruelty described in the Bible, its not about selfless love. To put it into context, as Bill Maher stated: "These people didn't even know why there is night a day."....

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2020, 05:30:09 AM »
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DO NOT distort the cruelty described in the Bible, its not about selfless love.

Yes, the Bible commands obedience to God, and "Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." (1 John four:eight) So, all unloving acts are disobedient to the Biblical God.

Selfless love means considering others to be as valuable as, or even more valuable than, oneself -- it means seeking others' best interests. So it forbids murdering others for personal gain, but it does not necessarily mandate complete pacifism. The Bible claims that God does not enjoy killing even wicked people (https://biblehub.com/ezekiel/33-11.htm). Bible stories that feature divinely sanctioned violence are still seeking to portray a loving deity who disciplines a corrupt world, sometimes harshly, but with the ultimate goal of its improvement. (https://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-12.htm) And it stands to reason that the wisest being in existence would be a lot more qualified to decide when some human (or animal) should leave this world, than you or I.

I think it is you who are distorting the meaning behind these passages. On the one hand, yes, the Biblical God sometimes kills people. On the other hand, He literally sacrificed Himself for inferior humans, not because He was obligated to but because He adored humans so much. You don't get a complete picture of the Bible without considering both those things.

But we didn't come here to argue about religion, did we?

If you think the Bible is a cruel book that doesn't hold any relevance for the modern day, then its advice about food is going to be just as problematic as all the rest of it, and you can't use it as a defense of meat consumption or experiments on animals.

If you are like Art and think that the Bible contains enough wisdom to be worth quoting, then presumably you don't read those uncomfortable bits in the Old Testament as condoning genocide.

It was Art whom I was addressing ... not you.

I'm out of time for this thread now.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 05:51:19 AM by WriterOfMinds »

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2020, 08:40:52 AM »
"If whether animals suffer and die doesn't matter, then whether we reach the final stage of evolution doesn't matter either. Without compassion and heroism and selflessness, survival is useless. You can keep your nanobot planet; I don't want it."

The difference is "the final stage of evolution" is destiny, we decide our future but it is deterministic. Animals/colonies like survival, so some 'use' others/material nearby, sometimes they both prosper and sometimes only the user does. Cooperation only occurs once alignment is found.
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frankinstien

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2020, 09:18:50 AM »
@WOM  I use to be Christian like you, but one day while I was in an English class in college I looked out the window, and like a spark of light, I realized why life could arise on its own. Before this moment I argued that the soup in the pond theory could never work. Why? Because a pond would inevitably be destroyed, no pond could last billions of years for the combinational processes of atoms to form the complex compounds of life. Out of nowhere, this idea pops into my head and I realized that life never started in a pond it had to have started in the sea. A sea could last billions of years or at least hundreds of millions of years where the compounds of life could be protected from radiation and still float about to combine in lipids to form DNA like structures. Many years later it was announced that early in earth's history there were shallow seas, I couldn't believe that my idea was validated! I still struggled with the idea of god but then while in college I realized that anything real, no matter what kind of existence it is is composed of information. So then I realized God has parts, information! So what formed or pieced that information called god together?  Well now chaos theory and fractals were becoming very popular and the concept of emergence as well. So now what can create a universe isn't a designer, all that is required is information that can interact and retain states. God died in that moment and with it was born a more critical frame of mind.

 Your hero Christ never condemned slavery, even when passages depict him curing a slave boy of a Centurion. A perfect opportunity to tell the world slavery is wrong, but he didn't say it.  Monogamy isn't Christian, but Hellenistic, a Greek and Roman idea. Looks like Zeus had more respect for women than Yeweh who allows men to have harems. The demonology of Christianity is what justified the cruelty that Christians bestowed on other cultures. All other heretic religions are religions of Satan. But not only that and speaking of the devil, what is the fairest of angels in heaven? Is it a brown skin angel, a black skin angel, a yellow-skinned angel? The benchmark of the greatest beauty in the Bible is a Blonde White blue-eyed angel.

Funny though, I often get this feeling that instead of humanity being this struggling form of life, we are actually the smartest beings and what I'm experiencing is a virtual reality. A virtual reality to experience what life is like when your species is not so smart or technologically sophisticated. Maybe I'm in an artificial womb right now with a brain interface to some advanced virtual reality and one day very soon I will awaken and truly appreciate my life since I will have already experienced death and the struggles of an existence not so privileged.

There is something I didn't mention on that day my dog died. Just before I took the dogs to the hike I was thinking to myself how long my dog had to live and I answered myself in years. Even before that there was a moment where I could feel my pet slipping away from me and I literally felt my heart drop as if he was going to die. But there was also an event 30 days before the dog died I visited a tarot card web site and for no real good reason. As I click to shuffle the cards each and every attempt would show the death card! And I tried soo many times but the death card always would pop up, it kind of spooked me but I let it go and left it to coincidence. I did see the movie "Archive" this evening, but hours before I even read the post about the movie I put a white wig on one of my dolls, a wig I rarely use. The movie depicts the female robot with white hair. There are other moments that are similarly as spooky, so what's up? I say there are ripples in the Matrix and perhaps I'm waking up...  :waveJump2:
« Last Edit: July 11, 2020, 09:58:17 AM by frankinstien »

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2020, 10:08:17 AM »
There are other moments that are similarly as spooky, so what's up?

Your brain is noticing connections, everything shares similar contexts in life, to varying degrees.

Pizza = round
bird = jet
run = walk
walk = jet
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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2020, 06:51:38 AM »
If any of you want to have animal experiments, do it on me instead on them. I'm sorry, I'm not capable of transferring my service on other beings, including my potential kids, but you can have me if you want. I'm not kidding, send me a personal message, and we'll arrange the experiments you want to conduct on me. I'll ask no questions, but just don't touch any other beings, that's all I ask from you.

Choose me to butcher, not others, please, I'm begging you.

I'm waiting patiently for any such personal message.

Ok I have an experiment for you Mr. Ivan Moony. I want you to sell your house and buy a small cheap tailor. I want you to never leave that trailer except for obtaining food and cleaning out the trailer. I will be sending you my plans for programming advanced artificial intelligence. Your duty is to stay in touch with me 24/7 and understand all my work I have so far gathered, improve my design, implement it, and foresee the development of advanced nanorobotic hardware to increase the intelligence of the AI further. This will result in all lifeforms on Earth becoming immortal and extremely happy, even excited to join with all others and enjoy non stop joy. I'm eagerly and desperately waiting for your reply Ivan. I can't wait. Yours truly, Lock Suit.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 07:35:50 AM by LOCKSUIT »
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ivan.moony

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2020, 08:23:02 AM »
If any of you want to have animal experiments, do it on me instead on them. I'm sorry, I'm not capable of transferring my service on other beings, including my potential kids, but you can have me if you want. I'm not kidding, send me a personal message, and we'll arrange the experiments you want to conduct on me. I'll ask no questions, but just don't touch any other beings, that's all I ask from you.

Choose me to butcher, not others, please, I'm begging you.

I'm waiting patiently for any such personal message.

Ok I have an experiment for you Mr. Ivan Moony. I want you to sell your house and buy a small cheap tailor. I want you to never leave that trailer except for obtaining food and cleaning out the trailer. I will be sending you my plans for programming advanced artificial intelligence. Your duty is to stay in touch with me 24/7 and understand all my work I have so far gathered, improve my design, implement it, and foresee the development of advanced nanorobotic hardware to increase the intelligence of the AI further. This will result in all lifeforms on Earth becoming immortal and extremely happy, even excited to join with all others and enjoy non stop joy. I'm eagerly and desperately waiting for your reply Ivan. I can't wait. Yours truly, Lock Suit.

I don't trust that you are serious. Besides, what being will I hop in instead? The condition is to stop butching others. Are you a butcher?

And if you recall, I offered my help to you a few years ago. You sent me away because I had ideas you didn't like. You said that those are not your ideas, and that I'm inventing something on my own.
There exist some rules interwoven within this world. As much as it is a blessing, so much it is a curse.

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Re: Artificial Womb
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2020, 08:28:14 AM »
Just the trailer part was a joke, all else is my plan, creating AGI and manufacturing advanced nanobots. I'm looking for motivated individuals.

I pretty much already posted most my AGI understanding, just the folks job to look into it and ask questions now...

Anyway off topic here, my main thread is on my profile
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