Famous Quotes - Thought

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Jman

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2006, 08:01:45 am »
Before I get back on freddys orginal topic. i'd like to apologise to FD if I offended you.
"And I think Jman didn't mean to imply anything - it was just a follow up quip on the original 'joke' in the quote - the joke was at the expense of men.  He only really followed it up (you the unfortuante stooge FD) light-heartedly with what he said and in no defense of men or himself.

I really don't think Jman was out to offend."

Holaluya!!

I shouldn't have made the joke in the first place, but since I have, the hole discusion does spark a lot of interesting 'thoughts'.

But I agree, lets agree to disagree for now. maybe we can get back to this discussion at a later date, but on a different thread or a different forum(one meant for general philosofy).

now on to the origonal topic:
maybe its not weathor 'Humans' or 'machines' think, but the differences in witch we think.
rule of thumb: all things are stupid until i figure them out out.

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2006, 10:56:35 am »
Well, I refuse outright to "get back to this discussion" ever again. For personal reasons. It's closed.

Apology accepted. Thank you. :)

About whether it's humans or machines that 'think' but differences in which we think - I personally believe we are right on target here.

I have done a lot of programming since I was 14, and I have noticed at times that sometimes, it even determines how I made decisions in real life. For example, if I was up for days on end, getting only about 4 hours of sleep per night, and doing nothing but coding most of the time (breaks for food, etc.) then I ended up even dreaming about the programming. And then when it came to real-life, I even got told I think too much like a computer. :)

The method of If/Then or other logic can be another (different) thought process. And it is just that: A Process, maybe not even involving much (or any) thought to begin with.

Which leads me to wonder: is there any thought in logic?

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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2006, 05:06:05 pm »
I had to go for a definition in a dictionary to help, found this :

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/logic

The key bit I think is that it is a system of reasoning.
But note the seperate listing for computers, which don't reason, just perform - hold that thought just for now!

'System of reasoning' implies thought to me, along the lines of one plus one equals two.  But then if a machine is doing the same thing it's behaving logically, which then implies thought ?

....hmm, I hear Mr Spock saying "It's life Jim, but not as we know it." from someplace.


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Art

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2006, 08:46:27 pm »
Quote:
Which leads me to wonder: is there any thought in logic?
End Quote

Funny, but in this case the reverse is not true:
Is there any logic in thought?

Too many times people act, speak, do without logical thinking.

A machine does not posess logic or reasoning in it's real state but merely
carries out an ordered, programmed set of instructions. Acting logical is not to
imply that logic exists, be it in man or machine.

Sudoku, the popular puzzle, relies entirely upon logic. A computer could be programmed
to solve it but only by using a pre-programmed set of instructions...not logic in the true sense.

In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2006, 08:47:30 pm »
I was just thinking of Mr. Spock when you said "logic" and "reasoning". :)

And in Star Trek, Mr. Spock's Vulcan culture was not based on emotion, but on pure logic (except every 7 years, which we won't get into that discussion right now ;) ). It was an interesting representation that the character portrayed, almost as if he was a computer or something. In fact, didn't Dr. McCoy often complain that very thing about Mr. Spock being too Computer-like?

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2006, 08:49:56 pm »
Art, you have a point there.

And then another thing came to mind - why are there things called "Logic circuits"? Some in the computer field think of logic as 0's and 1's. But now it's called "Digital". For example, digital is to logic what analog is to emotion. Ie. one is either it is, or not, and the other has varying degrees.

Perhaps, an AI will be like a Digital to Analog converter... converting analog (human emotion) to digital (logic? If I can put it that way?) form. Or rather, digital, computer-readable format.


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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2006, 10:36:01 pm »
'Logic-circuits' because...

A valid result of a logical argument depends on it's conditions being determined as right or wrong.  And they must be determined as right or wrong to achieve a result or conclusion.

In circuitry...

   Switches are 'on' or 'off'.

In the kind of midway, human-and-machine-almost-meet part, called digital and binary...

   They are 1 or 0

And for us..

   things like 'true' or 'false', 'right' or 'wrong' .

I just slipped on the man/woman banana peel there - originally i put man-and-machine, even though I know I am meaning women too.  Words huh?!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 11:58:20 pm by Freddy »

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2006, 03:37:54 am »
Human and Machine, perhaps? :) And then again, I've read where even Monkeys (animals) could use computers (not just in jokes but in scientific experiements). So animal and machine too...

Just for fun, if you want to know if humans are capable of thinking, or rather, HOW they think, try googling for "Superstitions" and see what sites come up, and read some of the superstitions that have been around for ages (and that some still believe in). :)

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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2006, 06:16:59 pm »
Point taken, but I was only trying to give a plain explination.

Thanks, I'll try that when I have apologised to our fellow animals   ;)

Our family cat says a kind of "Hello" , like "Meeyoowllooo"   ;D  I think people who have cats will get that, but people who don't have cats may laugh, I don't mind, but parrots too...


Fuzzie wrote:

Quote
Which leads me to wonder: is there any thought in logic?

Art wrote:

Quote
....Funny, but in this case the reverse is not true:
Is there any logic in thought?...

and

Quote
A machine does not posess logic or reasoning in it's real state but merely
carries out an ordered, programmed set of instructions. Acting logical is not to
imply that logic exists, be it in man or machine.

On Fuzzie's, I think that sometimes it might look and seem like there has been no thought.

In your response Art, I can't quite see what you mean and I sit with blankness in my mind.

The last quote I put in because it shows care is needed with what we (I) think is implied.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:31:54 pm by Freddy »

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Art

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2006, 02:22:05 am »
Freddy,

I have had a chess computer for many years. That's all is does...plays chess and very well, I might add.
Is the machine logical? NO! Does it ACT logical? YES, especially to the uninitiated, but most of us know that it is just a computer carrying out a pre-programmed set of instructions. When it does this, the computer APPEARS
to make logical moves but only based on the program, NOT because the machine is logical or smart by any stretch of the imagination.

Ergo, to act in a logical manner does not necessarily imply that logic exists, only perhaps that it is being emulated.

Not every human is a logical being. We have all done what we refer to, usually after the fact, as a stupid mistake.
Humans are prone to errors in judgement based on many factors such as emotions, greed, jealousy, rage, the desire to show off, get even, etc. It is what makes us human and it is also the source of our greatness weakness.

Pure logic without emotions is no better that a machine running a program.

Still blank?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:32:14 pm by Freddy »
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2006, 07:50:38 pm »
Not so blank thanks   :)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:32:24 pm by Freddy »

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2006, 11:27:32 pm »
Art - I know some humans that act like all they do is act according to their programming (ie. upgringing, what they were told they are "supposed to" believe, etc.) You could give them a fact to the contrary of their belief right in their face and they would outright deny the obvious! Of course, making fools of themselves, then they would laugh and say that the person presenting the fact is the idiot!

I wonder if these "humans" are really even sentient? Blinded, yes, but some carry this mentality to their grave with them (ie. they believe this into old age, etc.)

What makes a human (or even a machine for that matter) stand out is maybe it's ability not to think logically or emotionally, but it's ability to....


(ready)


Reason....?

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Art

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2006, 12:09:39 am »
OK, let's think about this for a moment...

Sentient - powers of sense of sense perception (I think, therefore I am, etc.)

Reason - The faculty of thinking logically. Good judgement, common sense. A normal
state of mind - sanity.

Therefore, I submit that there is not a single machine, bot or program (and several people I've met over
the years) that absolutely do not fall into the aforementioned categories.

A bot or machine only "knows" what has been programmed.

Again, I refer to my chess computer. It makes great moves, evaluates many possible positions before making them and is seldom incorrect, yet it is NOT smart, sentient or showing and reason other than carrying out a set of instructions.

As much as we'd like to see the day where machines can "think", make decisions and carry on meaningful conversations, I don't know if we'll see it in our lifetime.

akit sknaht :afro
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2006, 04:11:43 am »
Evening all, don't mind me, just bringing in some more wood for the fire here...up...okay there we go..

People with beliefs contrary to our own...hmmm I don't know much about phsychology, or trigonometry but even if we can make someone elses beliefs invalid, then in some cases we might not be doing them, ourselves or anyone else any favours.

I point to my long lost cousins the Unka Bunka tribe ( relatives of the Oompa Loompa's but a bit taller) who lived on the Island of the Firey Mountain.  For many years they had the belief that a dragon lived atop the firey mountain and would tell their children that this beast would burn them to cinders if they were to ever set foot on the 'mountain'.

For many generations the Unka Bunkas lived in harmony with the dragon, never wandering into it's realm, and so naturally by the virtue of their belief, they lived long happy and healthy lives.

That was until one day, a ship sailed out of the west and landed upon their shore.  They were amazed at the site and welcomed the explorers, but also warned them about the Dragon.

The men of the ship laughed and told them no such beast existed in all the world and in seeing the wonderful ship and all the incredible treasures and gadgets the Unka Bunkas realised the explorers must be right.

And so finally when the explorers departed, the Unka Bunkas decided it was time to venture in the realm of the dragon and this they did, never to be seen again.

And now as you gaze into the newly stoked fire, think for a while what might have been the fate of the lost Unka Bunkas and if the explorers really had brought them enlightenment.


 :shocked



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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2006, 04:14:59 am »
Art, I'd like to have a bit more hope than that. :)

While I can see your point about the chess computer, you mentioned the word "think" in that you believe machines can not "think".

According to Mirriam-Webster Online Dictionary (www.m-w.com), the word "think" is defined as the following (let's use this for this particular discussion as it seems to fit out of the others available)

intransitive verb
1 a : to exercise the powers of judgment, conception, or inference : REASON b : to have in the mind or call to mind a thought

Reminds me of perhaps the process of a program sending data to the memory banks vs. a human brain's neuron firing.

While we may "think" as in look at the information we take in and come to a decision on the information, then act on it... a computer can be said to do the same. The information being the input. The decision making process being the set of if/then statements and algorythms it uses to deduce the best course to act upon.

We sometimes work the same way: if something is one way then from our experience (algorythms, or pre-programmed due to laws, beliefs, upbringing) something is true.

Maybe we should examine this from your chess computer example.

A chess computer as you have said, follows a program. What is in the program is a series of instructions, yes. But what KIND of instructions is the interesting part. If/then statements. Chess computers typically will take a look at the positions of your pieces and try to deduce what moves are available to you. Then it will determine what will happen if you make any of those possible moves. IF/Then statements come into play:

1. Look at oponent pieces on matrix and store positions in memory along with the possible squares they may occupy on next move.

2. Look at computer pieces. Look up the pieces in the matrix (or array) to see if any of those pieces may be occupied by the opponent pieces on the next move.

3. If a piece is in danger, determine possible moves to move piece out of the way.

At this point, depending on the skill level of the computer you selected prior to playing the game (if this option is available), the computer may even do what is known as "look-ahead" by so many "steps". What this does, is then it will do the following to see if it's next move would be in danger. Maybe it will rate or flag each move in priority as most dangerous to least dangerous. When it's done the whole routine of looking ahead, etc. it will then look at the flagged moves and the one that was flagged as most dangerous will then be done so that it can save itself. It may even store the look-ahead moves that it anticipated you make. Most sophisticated programs will even look this up based on the "patterns" of your own moves it may have stored in it's database, to also use as a determination (via algorythms) on what moves you are most likely to make, so as to fine-tune which moves to flag as possibly dangerous.

So in essense, the computer really can be said to be doing a form of "thinking" or deduction. Sure, it's statements. But it's much more sophisticated (depending on the program, of course) than "If the player moves, pick a piece and move it according to these instructions for that piece) until the game ends. Some chess programs are this simple, and after awhile, can be easily beaten. But the more sophisticated ones do have a form of fuzzie logic programming and algorythms that go a little bit beyond simple following of instructions. Sure there are rules to follow as to what pieces can move in what ways. We also have to follow those rules to play the game properly.

Now on the human side of the equation: When a human plays chess, the human will basically visualize in their mind how the game will play out if they make certain moves. Breaking it down, the process is much the same way as what the computer does.

Sure it follows a set of rules. But while you are playing the game with the computer, are you "thinking"? You're following the same rules, and basically doing what the computer is doing. Trying to determine what your opponent is going to do and trying to avert any way possible that may lead you to lose the game. So, how is this "thinking" for a human but not for a computer if both are essentially following the same rules at the time of the game?

Sure a human can walk away and do something else, which the computer can't do. As it was designed to just play a game of Chess. But, if someone came up to you and said "Let's play a hand or two of Texas Hold'em" and you never played the game before, and don't know how to play, for example, you won't be able to "think" to play it unless your friend "programs" (ie. teaches you how) to play the game!

The one thing to keep in mind is that a machine is not human. A machine can not work the same way a human can. However, in the scheme of things, neither is a dog or a cat a human, and their way of thinking is far different from humans as well. (Cats like to think they have the better brain but we'll not talk about this right now ;) )

We often believe a cat or dog can think. But, can a cat or dog play chess?

Just some more ideas.

I believe computers can think. Yes. But maybe what some of us are looking for is a more generalized form of "thinking" in that not for one specific function, but for mult-functions or do a variety of things, like an AI is supposedly supposed to be able to do. To emulate human thought.

Still, if we aren't taught (programmed) how to do something, how do we learn it without being taught? No matter if someone shows us, tells us, or we read a book or look it up on the internet, or even just watching others do the task. We are 'learning', thus being programmed to follow a set form of rules or instructions to get to the end result.

It's like the old saying that man is an organic computer. It just may be true.

How we think may not be the same as how another entity thinks.

I bet if you reprogrammed the chess computer to play cards, it would be able to do it. But of course you'd have to change the hardware, etc. obviously. :) Same as if you want to teach someone how to scuba dive. You have to give them the diving gear.

 


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