[Bragi]

Topic split off to here...

@Jan: If you would like to give Google+ (G+) a go, you're welcome to PM either myself or Andrew (infurl) your email address, and we'd be more than happy to invite you.

Thanks GCC. I think I'll be waiting with that one a little longer though. I'm basically on ration: no gaming, no msn, no facebook, no nothing that doesn't really need to be typed. I guess that sortof fits in that line.

[infurl]

@Jan that sounds a bit dire.

Hope you're not experiencing repetitive strain injury or some related health problem, or even worse, relationship problems as a result of your interest in information technology. They say now that if you spend your working life sitting down e.g. at a computer terminal, it will shorten your life expectancy by a lot.

http://www.medicalbillingandcoding.org/sitting-kills/

[Bragi]

No, my immune system gave in a couple of years ago, I've got Ankylosing spondylitis and crohn which limits my activity considerably, including typing.

[Freddy]

Sorry to hear that my friend.

[Art]

Jan,

Are you taking Celebrex for pain management and for the Ankylosing spondylitis, Hydroxychloroquine?

Just curious as those are what my wife is taking as she has Ankylosing spondylitis and RA. Not a great
combination by any means.

I feel your pain, my friend.

[Bragi]

Thanks Freddy, ye I guess, in some way, we all have our crosses the bear.

@Art: I'm lucky in that respect, I live in a very socialistic country, I get humira shots  (well, I give them myself) every week. Half is paid by the goverment (some law still saying that they only want to pay for 2 shots a month, I need 4), the other half I get from the company that makes the stuff (I'm sort of a guinea pig, to see how well it works in the long term). I can't take many painkillers, my intestines can't handle them, so there aren't any 'pils' to take.
The conclusion, by the way, is that the humira helps less and less, so I'm supposed to be scheduled to be a guinea pig again for the when the new medicine comes out. In the mean time, there is a mild, non invasive surgery planned in October
 

[Art]

Hmmm...Socalistic country
Only provides Half of what's recommended
Provides medication that is a trial
Medicine proves to be less effective over time
Now slated for a less invasive surgery
Hmmm....

Doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for recovery
from a practical point of view.

Of course, they're working on Socialism here
but under the guise of a different name and agenda.
<tsk...tsk...clearing throat...wink>

I've heard it said that socalism works well
until they run out of other people's money!
Best of luck to you Jan!! I hope you can get some relief!

[infurl]

Art, perhaps you could explain to those of us who don't know what it is like to live in your country exactly what would happen to someone like Jan under your health care system. Since nobody seems to be that interested in discussing artificial intelligence here, we might as well talk about health care, and I'm fairly certain that all those episodes of "ER" and "Law & Order" that I watched over the years didn't paint an accurate picture. I'm especially interested because I also have to carefully manage severe health problems on a daily basis, so I can sympathise with both Jan and your wife in that regard.

[DaveMorton]

Well, since we all seem to be dealing with health issues, I guess we can consider this thread to be properly  'ed.

I'm going to let Art answer for himself, but I also wanted to respond to your question, Andrew, if you don't mind (or even if you do, for that matter )

Much of how health issues are dealt with here depends upon a lot of factors, such as one's level of insurance coverage, ability to pay whatever the insurance companies don't cover, military or veteran's status, location, and of course, the type and severity of the illness or injury. The same thing also applies to other aspects of health care, such as prescription medications. Unfortunately, there's a large gap in what the average person can afford to pay, and what is being charged for care. I feel that there are a lot of causes for this gap, and I feel that everyone, no matter what their income level or ability to pay should have equal access to health care. But I'm not so certain that this is something that Government should be addressing. At least, not in the way that is being proposed here in the US.

I'm trying very hard here NOT to grab a "soap box", and start preaching here. Health care, and proposed Government intervention (in the form of 'nationalized' or 'socialized' health care systems) is a very sticky subject for me. Having dealt with not only what we have here in the US, but also watching a good friend go through a nearly fatal bout with an infected gall bladder in Canada a few years ago, I would rather deal with our flawed system, where I'm charged way too much, but get treated right away, than having a lower bill, but have to wait several weeks for an OR to become "available", meanwhile experiencing severe pain, and risking complications, and the very real possibility of death from said complications. I'm sure that there is, if not a solution, at least a better compromise, to the problem. I'm just not smart enough to know what it is.

[squarebear]

Fortunately, here in the UK all health care is free. We don't have to pay medical insurance. All operations can be carried out for free by our National Health Service. The waiting lists can be quite long and so people also have the option of paying to have their operations done privately which is a lot quicker.

[Bragi]

Guess this thread has indeed been properly hijacked, sorry about that. Maybe a split should be better.

@Squarebear: Interesting thing: apparently there is a trend amongst UK citizens who are starting to come to Belgium for different types of surgery, because we don't have the long waiting lists (but it's not completely free, you need to pay part of the costs yourself).

@Andrew: hope your ok. I have no idea how things are in in Australia (other then what I saw as a kid on flying doctors  ), I guess it's about the same as in the UK and Canada?

Well, I can tell you what would have happened, had I have been a US citizen. First, I was working for an American company at the time that I got ill, with our division, directly managed by an amarican guy, so there wouldn't have been many differences there. I was about 25-26, software engineer, at the start of my career, so the insurance wouldn't have been bad, but not premium.
The company's reaction upon me telling them was very simple: fired, so there goes the insurance.

Still, lets pretend there was one, The question then becomes, for medical bills of +3500$ per month (only for medication, this doesn't include tests, doctors bills,...), what kind of an insurance do you need to cover the costs?  Most likely, the insurance doesn't want to cover such high bills (the easiest and known trick apparently used in the US to deny a treatment is simply to claim it is still an experimental procedure,... ) , so the only alternative for me was surgery: half my stumoch + large part of the colon gone + most likely cause of death in a couple of years: slow asphyxiation due to spinal imoveability. In short, you guys would not have known me.

Sure, it's not all 'great' over here as well. Like I said, government here made a law to limit the costs associated with this drug. The perverse thing about it all, is the fact that our health system has, over the years become partly commercialized. That is: we don't have 1 goverment paying for all of your medical bills over here, instead, we can choose which branch we want (each branch of course heavily politicized, so you have the 'christian, liberal, socialist,.. branches). They are all competing against each other: the more people that the have enrolled, the more funding they get, so you get travesties like this:
Because of the high costs of the medication, extra paperwork is required, authorizing it's  usage, creating more costs (since it needs to be requested, processed,...). When I first went to get this 'approval', I was told I had to wait half a year before I could get it, since I had already used up my ration for the year. At the same time, they were holding a campaign for attracting newly enlisted (healthy) people, by giving away free car-baby sits or buggies for kids (not some cheap stuff, but the real deal).
That's why the doctor inrolled me into the long term test program: this way I could get the medication for the rest of the year for free.

My opinion about health care is very simple: it should not be run by humans, period.

[Art]

Thanks but GCC and others have pretty much the right idea. There are choices and largely based upon which plan one has, one can either go to a doctor of his choice or go to a doctor within the "network" where the costs might be 80/20 (plan pays 80%, user pays 20%). If the user elects to go outside the network the costs usually rise accordingly BUT you often get to go to your own family physician instead of a complete stranger who knows nothing of your medical history.

Many years ago (back in the 50's) doctors would often make "house calls", a series of home visits to patients within driving distance of a certain geographic location. Hands on, quick diagnosis, friendly manner, handshake and would often stay for dinner with the family (often accepting dinner as payment or perhaps a nice load of fresh vegetables from the garden as payment). Different times back then and no computers, no "administrators with business degrees". Not that education is a bad thing but I'd rather have a facility with the administrator being an older doctor who understand medicine, what's involved in certain procedures and what's reasonable and customary instead of what some "bean counter" has compiled in his spreadsheet, etc.

Now days, in most towns, there are clinics that provide care for people without medical plans, emergencys light in nature, birth control / contraceptives, exams, advice, counselling, with little to no actual cost. Sometimes paid by the physicians themselves or donations or other subsidies.

There's no doubting that the cost of decent health care is rising at an alarming rate and it is going to be the albatross of the retirement / elderly class of people.
As hard as it is to believe, there are already some elderly people cutting their pills in half to make them last longer because they can only afford them once a month. Sad!

Interestingly, a documentary recently pointed out that since our food consumption has centered more around "fast food", prepared foods, etc., laced with names we can't even pronounce and chemicals that a pharmacist might have trouble explaining, our cost of health care and obesity has risen drastically!
Apparently, we ARE what we eat. Eat junk and bad food choices and face the consequences of being overweight, diabetes and other disorders.
Stay away from grain / corn fed beef (cows were never meant to eat corn but rather GRASS). Chickens, while being a great source of protein have been genetically modified over the past 40 years and raised to maturity in as little as 47-49 days instead of 90! Yes, they've been fed hormones and ANTI-BIOTICS and never see the light of day. Free range birds are a much better choice.

Instead of shopping at a super market, visit a farmers Co-Op where you can ask about the food you're buying and putting into your body. If a third grader can't pronounce the ingredients on a can or package of food, Don't buy it!!

Moderation, fruits, vegetables, good meat, limit salt and sugar to reasonable amounts and some exercise.

Yes, sorry to stray but the two go so hand in hand that they can't and shouldn't be separated.

Am I in favor of state run health care. NO.  Our government is already trying to tell us how we should raise our children and run our lives. It's just one more thorn in the wound! IMHO!!

[DaveMorton]

One thing that I didn't bring up, mainly because I don't want to seem callous, is that I don't want anyone to be forced to pay my way in the world, and I certainly don't want to be forced to pay someone else's. If I want to make a donation to a local church, or other charitable organization, then that's my business; but for the Government to tell someone that they HAVE to pay such and such amount to them, so that a small percentage of that can be applied to "nationalized health care", simply because they exceed a certain income level is ludicrous. Now bear in mind that my income level is such that I actually qualify for many of the programs that I disagree with, and that I could easily get my health care needs, food, and even a small income in addition to what I already make all provided to me, simply by filling out a few forms, and jumping through a few hoops. But I'm the type of person that can't accept that sort of "assistance" with a clear conscience. Heck, I don't even like asking for help from my family, though I'm quite happy to give what I can, to help them out. I figure that if I can't afford something, then I either need to work harder to earn what I need, or I do without. Like Art indicated earlier, life was a lot simpler (and a lot more compassionate) before the explosion of attorneys and insurance companies.

By the way, I'm all for splitting this thread. I may not have actively contributed to the earlier portion of the discussion, but I was truly enjoying it.

[Bragi]

There are choices and largely based upon which plan one has, one can either go to a doctor of his choice or go to a doctor within the "network" where the costs might be 80/20 (plan pays 80%, user pays 20%). If the user elects to go outside the network the costs usually rise accordingly BUT you often get to go to your own family physician instead of a complete stranger who knows nothing of your medical history.

I don't really understand why you think this isn't the case over here. We can do pretty much whatever we want (there is no restriction in choice of doctors, location or whatever), the difference is, if you choose something the government has aproved, you get your money back. You can go to a quack if you like, you're just not gonna get your money back.
In fact, the thing you described about the housedoctors giving house calls, still happens over here. In fact, a regular doctor can't have a practice over here without spending half his time going to his patients. Those things haven't changed in decades, there is only an extra layer of administration added to it.
For instance, the rate of every doctor's visit is fixed: a regular doctor (no specialist), you go to him: 21Euros, he comes to you: 25 euros. He gives you a paper. that paper goes to your 'med care branch', they process it and refund part of the money. There are 2 different levels of refund: normally it's about 80%, but if your medical bills exceed x amount, it goes up (sociolist systems have to be complicated, otherwise you can't fiddle/mess with them  )
specialists are more complicated: they have fixed rates, but can ask for 'extra charges' depending on extra services they provide. Hospital bills are done in a similar manner: if you want a single room, doctors can charge you whatever they want (which is why we have 'extra' hospital insurance from employers), but if you agree to a shared room (usually 2), costs become fixed again, depending on xxxx (again, there need to be loopholes, we are afterall as prolific in 'extracurricular'  activities as the Italians).
There is 1 side effect to this system: doctors have a fixed rate, no matter how much time they spend with you, so every visit is cut down to 15-20 minutes (which is not enough in my opinion to perform a correct examination, make a conclusion, inform the patient and do all the paper work (there are no secretaries normally cause they would be an extra non-refundable cost).

[DaveMorton]

I don't pretend to understand all of the problems with our health care system here. I don't even want to try, truth be told. It's easy to just blame the Government (just like I did earlier) for the entire problem, but to be completely honest, they're actually the smallest part of the problem. Others who share culpability are ourselves, for suing for every little thing that can go wrong, insisting that someone else must be "at fault" for whatever minuscule thing that happened while little Teddy was getting his tonsils removed, to the liars (er... Lawyers) who even consider taking a case for $160MILLION dollars over a person spilling coffee in their own lap, to the insurance companies who charge doctors outrageous fees for malpractice insurance on the one hand, and then try to underpay the doctors and hospitals on claims, to the hospitals that now look at the "bottom line", instead of the patient's needs, as primary consideration, to... Well, you get the point. Can someone PLEASE take this silly soap box away? My nerves can't take much more of this ranting!