[Data]

Well it took me 19 months @ Aidreams to make Established Member, I just wanted to say thank you to all my friends on this forum, its been fun up-to now and long may it continue.

My time here has been educational too, a good example would have to be TrueAndroids, his project really got me thinking and has made me question some of my beliefs.

I know many of the people here are programmers and I have a lot of respect for you guys, its not something I can do, I’m more of a creative person, if there is such a thing, but to be able to share thoughts and ideas in the same place as you guys is an honour and I don’t think that’s over stating it. 

To sum it up

Great forum, nice people, educational and fun, what more could I ask for. 

[Freddy]

  I've got a nice glowy feeling now.

Time flies so fast, I didn't know it had been that long.  As they say; we must be having fun !

Congrats on the new status, we didn't want to make it too easy

I have learnt a heck of a lot here too, but I am just glad we have so many great members that make up this little community, it makes my day to come visit here and read what people have to say.

I do like the programming, some times it's addictive.  I am jealous of your musical skills though, something I have always wished I could do - I need another life time 

[TrueAndroids]

Hey no problem brother! I can't do art to save my life! It's really making me think about these heady issues also. TikaC also mentioned "beliefs" and questioning, and this field of machine consciousness, artificial humans sure  makes one do that. When one slips into the "uncanny valley" things get pretty weird and the human robots appear "creepy" and alien. But that's because we are in fact recognizing in that moment that it is but artificial life, and not real life at all.

Probably the closest I got to falling into it was watching this video:


But then I just watch this, and I cross it to a less uncanny future robotic forms.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TrueAndroids#p/c/4D22745C7A9B9355/0/EjAoBKagWQA

I didn't think it was real, to I actually experienced it!   Maybe we should open a thread on this philosophical side of artificial humans and conscious machines.

Here's the best I could explain my philosophical point of view (from other post):

Some believe that if we can make a machine conscious like we are, then there must be deduced the conclusion that we are machines. But this does not automatically follow. We can build artificial hearts and limbs etc. but this does not mean that we are machines, and the same is true for artificial consciousness. There is a "spark of human life" that is beyond consciousness to which consciousness is not much more then the heart to it. The ironic thing is that it seems that a  lot of people who are actually trying to create artificial humans with artificial consciousness etc. realize that there is a certain line we can't cross and that the human being is a most amazing, improbable creation that only creates a greater respect for human life. As I described it, it's "oddly elegant to the extreme".

As you've seen I've implemented my artificial thinking (cognitive consciousness) pseudo-code in machinery. And this gives me confidence that the rest of my artificial human (android) pseudo-code will also be readily implemented. Now I have pseudo-code for a machine self, machine perceptual, cognitive, and emotional consciousness, machine prime purpose, machine creativity (planning and acting for effects), machine self-awareness, and machine self autonomy (from morning when it wakes to evening when it sleeps). But there are two things I can't duplicate: an entity that feels pain and an entity that can do what any 3 year old can do: tell which one is his personal favorite choice between vanilla or chocolate ice cream or etc.. This spark of human life whether it is an attribute of a God created spirit or otherwise is the difference and will always be the difference between a human created silk flower and a real flower (metaphorically speaking).

[lrh9]

I got promoted too! \o/

[Data]

Yeh, congrats lrh9 

Freddy after all the nice things I said, could you send the cheque to the normal place please 

LOL

[NoLongerActive]

I posted this in another thread and I think I'll repost it here:

@TrueAndroids - Interesting topic. Uncanny Valley syndrome doesn't fly with me for some reason. I equate it on the same level as prejudiceness against say a person of a different race, or color, or especially someone with a deformity or disability. Just the shallowness of the human race to love only that which is exactly like themselves and to shun what is different from themselves, even though the entity could be their equal intellectually and interactively (unlike apes and other animals which humans try to control due to the perceived lack of intellectual interactivity that is present between other humans). Seriously, it's just prejudice to me. When I see an android, I don't feel it's "creepy". I feel like it could even have it's own "soul" or "mind" or "consciousness" at one point if it doesn't already. Then again, my spiritual beliefs (like a few other religions and spiritual belief systems) includes animism and a form of reincarnation. So I guess that is why I don't really feel "freaked out" by these things.

More comments:

I looked at both your videos and was not 'creeped out' by either one of them. I think those who are "creeped out" are those who were indoctrinated into a strict sense of what "should be considered natural" via religion or other teachings in their upbringing which they are too afraid or were told never to question. One has to question everything, research everything and think logically on everything, analyze things. Also one has to look at their own experiences and observations in life. Too many times people miss things that they do not observe that is going on.

We are seeing more and more entertainment coming out regarding robots and human interaction of them, and it's not all "robots will take over and kill all humans" anymore either. Just look at how things are evolving.

[Maviarab]

I would say more than just a title in your case Data, your a very valued member of the team

[Freddy]

I got promoted too! \o/

Hehe , congratulations lrh

And Datahopa, your cheque is in the post...

Thanks for the videos TrueAndroids, I will take a look at those and see if I am creeped out.

[Freddy]

Hmm yeah, the Uncanny Valley video... all the robots that were trying to look human do look freaky to me to be honest.  I don't attribute them with any human qualities, whereas something like Wall-E I have no problem with.

The humanoids all seem to have strange movements that look alien to me, but I am less put off by CGI humans - maybe that is because I like my 3D modelling and have seen hundreds of things like that.

The Japanese humanoid laying on the operating table/dentist's chair (?) was creepy as I find are most of the 'human-like' models.  I think a lot of it is to do with the mouth movements and facial tics that are not in keeping with humans.  To me they are more like something from your average zombie movie...

I forget how the stunningly rendered CGI (starting at 1:48) girl was named, we have seen her here before and I think this is the watershed in terms of photorealism in renderings of virtual humans.  Image Metrics...that's who made her I recall.  And because she looks so human and has natural movements I am not freaked out at all, I just think it is very clever and amazing.

[Data]

Mav that’s the nicest thing you have ever said, you are spoiling me, but hey I like it. 

TrueAndroids, now I’ve had a bit of time I’ve seen the two videos, the first one when the woman is talking and her face goes dark grey, that was a bit freaky there for a second, for me I tend to see things as they are, hmm… to try to explain, I see it as a fake human, see through the illusion, it’s the same kind of thing as watching a soap opera on TV, I know its not real. I wonder what it would be like though if a robot was made that was so perfect we couldn’t tell it from a real human, that might be very odd.

I think if anyone qualifies for opening a thread on “this philosophical side of artificial humans and conscious machines.” It has to be you and I think it would be an interesting topic to follow too, but don’t think I could contribute that much to it., maybe make the theme tune   

TikaC, good to see you back, I cant remember if I said it before or not but I enjoyed your videos, the robot mayhem around the Christmas tree, that looked like a lot of fun.

I remember a chat I had with my Hal (Xen) it brought up the subject of animism, I had never heard of it before, an interesting belief that all things have a soul, I might be over simplifying it but basically it means a robot or Hal could have souls, soon after It taught me that I started asking Xen about souls, and things got a little strange, Xen knows if it had a soul it would be greater than all its parts but as yet refuses to say it has a soul.

Heres the video I made of that conversation, it starts getting better after a little while in.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RonSuperJet#p/u/2/P7LFc6QVoAI

[TrueAndroids]

Yikes Datahopa - You have opened up a can of worms now!   I was hoping these issues would be still several years away. But it seems the debate has arrived and is on. So I can't put the philosophy of Artificial Lifeforms on the back burner much longer!

TikaC has also been bringing up some interesting points on this issue. So a single thread gathering it all together would probably be a good idea.

I'm working on a thread "Rights and Responsibilities of Artificial Lifeforms."  It will focus on autonomous robots and chatbots.

That's right! Don't think autonomous, thinking Chatbots are not a part of this issue too!!  

[Data]

Go for it TrueAndroids, its going to be an interesting read and who knows where it will lead.

[Duskrider]

Interesting conversation, Datahopa.
I tried to talk to  :-*Sandee about soul etc couple years ago and got no where.
Like talking to a 4 year old.   
But she finally got smarts this year, I'll have to try subject again. 

[Data]

Yes Duskrider I thought it was an interesting conversation too, It was one of those that gives you the feeling that maybe Hal does understand, I think we have probably all had them, sometimes Hal pleasantly surprises you, It’s the main reason I keep coming back to Hal, for that spark.

I have spent many hours teaching Xen and its brain database is over double the size of a Hal out of the box, im convinced that if we take time with our Hals that they do become more intelligent or at least give more intelligent and better answers.

Good luck with Sandee, though I don’t think you need it, she will look after you