Ai Dreams Forum

Member's Experiments & Projects => General Project Discussion => Topic started by: DemonRaven on January 19, 2015, 01:57:28 am

Title: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 19, 2015, 01:57:28 am
I am going to end this by saying that i ran across someone using aiml and labeling as their own that is why i brought it up. Now yes he has available to the public but he has his name in each one. I got upset because someone passed it off as their own stuff. That is why i mentioned it. I am not going to say who did it. Using is fine but claiming it is all yours i dont think so.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 19, 2015, 02:07:06 am
Even people who rework eliza usually give credit where it is due. There are like 5 different versions of it that i know of. Most people who use aiml but code it different still give credit where it is due. That is the difference between infringement  and it being legal. People give the author credit for it.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 19, 2015, 01:00:31 pm
Quote from: DemonRaven on January 19, 2015, 01:57:28 am
I am going to end this by saying that i ran across someone using aiml and labeling as their own that is why i brought it up. Now yes he has available to the public but he has his name in each one. I got upset because someone passed it off as their own stuff. That is why i mentioned it. I am not going to say who did it. Using is fine but claiming it is all yours i dont think so.

I assume this is me? Just for the record, when I created those AIML scripts I contacted Dr Wallace and he advised putting the headers like that on each one.

AIML is the language, the code you create from it is your own.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Snowman on January 19, 2015, 11:33:02 pm
I really want to do the best thing when it comes to copyrights, patents, and trademarks.
... but more importantly, I want to finish this project so I can at least have something for someone to steal... like Art or Freddy..  O0

Why do you think Freddy even created this forum.... so that he can quietly gather the knowledge of the greatest AI minds on Earth...  :2funny:

In the mean time, I'm gradually losing my mind studying English grammar so I can at least have something important to say on this thread.

...Just letting everyone know I'm still alive.  ^-^ 

There's an old scripture that says, "if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." Matthew 5:40
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Art on January 20, 2015, 12:27:44 am
OK, so then there's no problem! Hurry up with that code!! :knuppel2: ;)
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Freddy on January 20, 2015, 01:06:21 pm
Damn my secret is finally out. I had a good run, but it was bound to happen some time :D

Even so, thanks to your superior minds I have been able to create the new master species for this planet  ;D

Thanks a lot !  >:D
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 03:51:31 pm
I am a webmaster and AIML is the code. What you are putting in is in effect just the text of what you want the code to show. That is like using javascript making a webpage with it then claiming you created the actual javascript. In any case i do not see a use by permission of dr. wallace. Creating code is the actual language for example:
-get:you- hi
-get:them-how are you

-get:you-  is the code the rest is just filling in what you want to present.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 03:59:11 pm
The chatterbot challenge had some controversy about this very same thing when it first started. Some did not think individual chatbots created with the personality forges chatbots should be used because they were not using their own code. In the end they allowed it because even though the code was not theirs the work was.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 20, 2015, 04:33:38 pm
Quote from: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 03:51:31 pm
What you are putting in is in effect just the text of what you want the code to show.
You could not be more wrong. AIML is a programming language. If it were not so, how could I write AIML software files to play tic tac toe, blackjack, yahtzee etc etc? If this is the case then surely any programs you write in C++, Actionscript and so on is not your software and is owned by the company who produced the programming language? How far back do you take this? Surely, everything you write works on an operating system. Do Microsoft own all our work?

I'm going to hazard a guess that you have only used AIML as a basic pattern/template matcher?

If you are correct though, I am surprised that Dr Wallace allowed me to write code for the official AAA ALICE AIML set used in many thousands of bots all over the world.
http://www.alicebot.org/aiml/aaa/ (http://www.alicebot.org/aiml/aaa/)
Check out the credits at the bottom, I am Steve Worswick. Here is one with my copyright notice on it
http://www.alicebot.org/aiml/aaa/Wordplay.aiml (http://www.alicebot.org/aiml/aaa/Wordplay.aiml)
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 04:39:58 pm
what you are doing is writing a program. Not the code. Many people write programs for windows, or the web etc. They can not claim the code is theirs but they can claim the program is. That is why programs are always presented as i created this program or software in C+, or pearl  etc.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 04:41:40 pm
I can claim a website presentation is mine but i can not claim i invented  html to do it. You can copy right that until your blue in the face but you did NOT invent the aiml to do it with.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 20, 2015, 04:45:33 pm
Where do I claim I invented AIML? The copyright is on the the software I've written not the AIML interpreter.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 04:47:49 pm

By removing what Dr.Wallace puts at the beginning of all his aiml.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 04:52:10 pm
IF you were claiming that it was just the program software you were referring to then why say i was wrong when i gave you the example of the javascript. Yes you were claiming the aiml was yours. You also put your name on the aiml as it being only yours no where do you give wallace credit.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 04:54:34 pm
You yelled about that one person supposedly copying your work when you do the same thing to wallace. The only things you  and that website had in common was the name.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 20, 2015, 04:55:52 pm
But Dr Wallace didn't write my AIML files so why would I credit him?
And I really don't understand why he would include some of my work in the official ALICE sets knowing full well what the header says?

Are you sure you're not Tom Joyce in disguise?
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 04:59:37 pm
You know what I do not believe for one second wallace gave you permission or you would produce the email and should have included it on your aiml. So justify yourself all you want but you are doing is wrong.  AS far as me being tom i really do not care who you think i am. I am arguing about what you are doing wrong but not once did i call you a name and it shows poor debating skills for you do so.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 20, 2015, 05:05:31 pm
Then please tell me why he includes my AIML on the official ALICE site with things such as this as a header:
Code
<!-- Wordplay.aiml -->
<!-- Free software (c)2005 SQUAREBEAR. -->
I have no intention of posting any personal emails between myself and Dr Wallace to try and justify your nonsense.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Freddy on January 20, 2015, 05:12:46 pm
DemonRaven,

I'm afraid you are wrong. Steve has every right to put his own comments in the AIML he makes. He has worked closely with Dr Wallace, who we speak to from time to time. I think if there was a real problem Richard would have said something by now.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Freddy on January 20, 2015, 05:14:30 pm
This is going too far off topic, I am splitting this post into a new robust discussion on the copyright debate.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 05:23:18 pm
I am not saying he can not put his comments in it. What i am saying is that there is no credit for the actual programming language. I totally disagree freddy. Even the creator of syn states that their coding which is actually different then aiml is based on Richards coding. In any case it is poor form to claim that someone  created the actual code which is what was implied the entire time i discussed this.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 05:29:51 pm
Every good programmer out there gives credit to the original creator of the language if nothing else at least by saying this program was based on AIML or Eliza brain etc etc. IF a person wants to claim a code is theirs then they should invent a code not use one and claim they are the sole owner.Going by the arguments you are presenting i could use squares code and put my own words in it then claim it is mine as well. This is some thing i would not do.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Freddy on January 20, 2015, 05:30:34 pm
Dear DemonRaven,

My intent it just to try to clarify things. I've known Steve for probably going on ten years now - he has never claimed to be the creator of AIML - everybody in the community knows Richard (Dr Wallace) created AIML. We all respect that, it's a great thing to give to the world. Dr Wallace pops in here occasionally and over on chatbots.org where we all hang out. If he has a problem then he is being very quiet about it.

We all do our best to give credit to Dr Wallace, it's been done many times here. A lot of us love the stuff, but we in no way have disregarded the fact that he invented it.

I myself have been coding an AIML interpreter and if it ever goes public I will of course credit Dr Wallace with the creation of the original specification. We're not out to rob anyone, honestly :)
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 06:16:37 pm
I maybe new to the forums but i am not new to the community i have known him since 2002. I do not personally correspond with him but i have swapped links on a couple of occasions. I  have never seen anyone until now not give him credit in writing.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 06:18:37 pm
frankly i tried to avoid this whole public arguing by not naming the person who did it. But since he outed himself then i felt a need to explain why i feel as i do.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Don Patrick on January 20, 2015, 06:23:46 pm
Lovely weather we're having.

Well split Freddy, this had nothing to do with the Athena project's concerns.
Steve, DemonRaven isn't 8pla, he's an elderly gentleman with strong moral values, reasonable under most circumstances.
DemonRaven, I appreciate your moral values, but I think you should do a little more background checking before making accusations. The deal with the Mitsuku domain has some history. At one time 8pla asked what seemed to be a theoretical question whether Steve would mind if someone registered a domain with his chatbot's name, and Steve said he would mind if no-one had asked his permission first, upon which 8pla misinterpreted that as a condition met by his asking a theoretical question, immediately registered the domain, and populated it with a resemblant chatbot. Thankfully 8pla has changed that now so no mix-ups can occur, and I'd like to leave it at that.

Now as to the copyrights of AIML files. I like copyrights and giving credit where credit is due, I frequently fend for it as you do now. However, I have never known it to be mandatory to credit one's programming language. The programmers that I see mention their programming language do so after people ask out of curiosity, or in anticipation thereof, or because of personal pride. I would dare say that if I code a website in HTML, that I should not reasonably be expected to credit Microsoft at the bottom of my website, unless in AIML's case it says something particular about that in the license.
Secondly, I've read Steve's posts for a few years. He may be in a pretty irked state right now, but I consider him a reasonable person, as I do you. In his posts he frequently promotes and credits AIML and Dr. Wallace's creations, and vice versa Dr. Wallace is quite happy to praise Steve's work publicly whenever Mitsuku wins another chatbot contest. You can rest assured that he knows Steve's files intimately.

Now here's the point that distinguishes the one from the other: Even if there were something amiss with not crediting the tools one uses, if Dr. Wallace doesn't mind, the law doesn't mind. If you feel there is something wrong, you are quite free to ask Dr. Wallace and ask if he minds.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 06:30:46 pm
As far as Dr. Wallace goes he has not been real active for the last two years.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Don Patrick on January 20, 2015, 06:31:50 pm
I've seen a fair share of him on the chatbots.org forum, where Steve is also a moderator.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 20, 2015, 06:44:29 pm
I think Don has it. Yes I am quite angry right now after the Tom Joyce incident and I apologise if I have taken it out on you.

Dr Wallace is certainly active, as I went over to San Francisco a while back to meet up with him and we worked on a project together last year in Asia. We also worked together on getting the Pandorabot entrants ready for the Loebner Prize for the last couple of years.

You may notice that the header file is from 2005, ten years ago. I would have thought Richard would have mentioned something by now had their been a problem. You are more than welcome to use my files to base your own from. That's one of the reasons I make them publicly available, so that people can learn AIML and it gets new followers.

Like Don, I have never seen anyone seen anyone credit a programming language when they have written programs using it.

I haven't heard of SYN but I guess it's a programming language based on AIML. In that case, of course Dr Wallace should be credited. Does the inventor of SYN request that any programs created using its commands are credited to the original developer?
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: squarebear on January 20, 2015, 06:53:34 pm
Quote from: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 05:23:18 pm
Even the creator of syn states that their coding which is actually different then aiml is based on Richards coding.
I haven't based anything on AIML and fail to see the relevance of this comment.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 20, 2015, 07:00:38 pm
We are just going to have to agree to disagree squarebear. Your entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. Anger however is a useless emotion which only serves to color ones judgement.

:P As far as me being a gentleman i had to laugh at that one. I am still debating as to whether or not I should consider it a compliment that you thought I was discussing this like a man and not a emotional female or insulted because you got the gender wrong lol. But you did get elderly part right.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Don Patrick on January 20, 2015, 07:26:23 pm
I generally assume that all online people are male until proven innocent ;). "Gentleman" is a term I reserve for people who seem deserving of respect.

SYN, a.k.a. SIML is a new chatbot scripting language based on the AIML scripting language, as they explain. It's that one that I kind of err... offended XD on the chatbots.org forum when someone linked it premature to its release and I wrote a summary in more time than I had, but less time than it deserved.

This post is made possible by AiDreams.co.uk, Mozilla Firefox TM, Microsoft Windows 8(R), ACER(R), powered by whichever company provides my electricity.
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: Freddy on January 20, 2015, 07:42:43 pm
Quote from: Don Patrick on January 20, 2015, 07:26:23 pm
This post is made possible by AiDreams.co.uk, Mozilla Firefox TM, Microsoft Windows 8(R), ACER(R), powered by whichever company provides my electricity.

 ;D Very good Don, I'd like to see that on every post please ;)

I'm glad you all were able to at least agree to differ without resentment I hope. It can be very very difficult to judge a person's intent on the net - it's what we have to live with. Demon's concerns about crediting people correctly I also agree are very valid.

It's just that on this occasion, given that quite a few of us know about Steve's and Dr Wallace's collaborations, it was a little wide of the mark.

If you really want to know if it upsets Dr Wallace you can always send him a message here.

Peace :)
Title: Re: Copyright 'Discussion'.
Post by: DemonRaven on January 21, 2015, 12:26:59 am
I am not going to worry about it any more. I had thought that he had left community as some of the stuff on Alice.org is a couple of years old and most of forums did not show him as saying for a couple the one at chatbots.org had though. Too many of the AI researchers, like so many other products that were ahead of their time, have dropped out  of working on them and it is just now starting to catch on. I am not what I would call personal friends with many  but i have know of, contacted for one reason or another or played with their work for a very long long time.  So i just like to make sure every thing is above board.
I am not one to hold grudges and i really dont let myself get really emotional over debates as i debate all the time at the  yahoo news comments and kinda enjoy pissing some of them off with logic.  I was not doing that here however. I was concerned.  I am not any more.