Ai Dreams Forum
Robotics => General Robotics Talk => Topic started by: jlsilicon - Robotics AI on December 01, 2016, 03:22:06 pm
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I am busy working on building my First Android now !
- and I am Not talking about the lame cellphone ... pphhtt...
Of course, I have built somewhere approacing to 100 robots in the past.
I have a batch of around 80 small Complex Walking Bots all over the shelves in my livingroom
- that my wife is not so thrilled with ...
I have also built a few Lifesize Animal Bots.
But, now I am working on an Android like bot.
I have been watching the news, and the closest that I have seen are the Hanson bots.
But, they don't seem to have much in AI brains ... just answering set or random Answers - no depth or Concepts
... can they even Walk ?
I have an working AI version of the Mind coming into Reality.
So, of course, I have a Humanoid Bot that I am also completing.
Getting ready to bring the Company public now.
- I moved down south last few years hoping to get away from the stress from northeast states.
But, ended up losing my intellectual connections at the same time.
- even talking to the Universities - is like talking to bricks - no understanding or concepts of AI - sad.
So, I am just going straight to publicity - tired of trying to connect to the AI universities,
- they don't seem to want to bother to talk to other Researchers.
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Not get, for me.
I am working on my AGI brain now. Later on start working on the body. Using Raspberry pi cluster. programed in c/c++. with
a Linux operating system.
I now have my touch sensor design.
I am using Opencv software for sight. With my own NN software.
I am in the middle of developing audio software for listen and generating sound of all types. With my same NN software.
And i have my complete AGI theory and complete theory of human psychology.
Will not use stepper motors. Using something like quad copter motors that have been gread down.
Lithium ion batteries for the small and maybe battery and fuel engine combination for the larger.
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You develop and produce the working AGI brain and it will tell you what you need to do from that point onward. ;)
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AnDroid 84
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I am refering to Android Robots (not the cellphone sw), if you read me message.
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Yes I know.
By the way, I have most of AI, I am a backstreet-er, very closed and far progressed in a encyclopedia of knowledge.
I see you have built many technical robots, and softwares.
I am working on something, hang around here and you're sure to see ghosts.
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This seems like a good place to start if you want to build a life-size android from scratch. Completely open source and 3d printed and a large active community supporting it.
https://inmoov.fr/
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Been there, I've noted lots down about education systems. Yes the universities won't reply back, they only talk to "family", while public can go to the building. Vice versa public can't go to homes but we will likely reply back online.
Companies being government institutions can give-you funding grants for research & development.
DeepMind, IBM, etc.
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Yes, Interesting site.
Should give me some Designs for my 3D Printing.
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It's amazing how we can build everything that there is to a human:
- A body frame.
- Life support systems.
- Sensors and motors.
- Nerve wires.
- Brain (computer to emulate).
- Memory storage.
- Senses and action files.
- create, save, access, and mod files.
- 3D simulators.
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I had been on the news in europe - for a past automobile computer project/job of mine.
Currently I have a version of the AI system - that runs Intelligently.
Also, I have a few alternate versions that are quite Creative - have Creativity - do things that show that they are Creative ... you get the point...
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Heheh, I like you. You have some AI yes?
Can it learn to play a game or explain how gravity works? And how?
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Yes it does.
It does because I made it so.
(actually It does what I Tell it to do ...)
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I have aiming for Singularity - on the List of Things-to-do - to try soon.
- wish me luck ...
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Hmm. Speaking of "The Singularity" Ray Kurzweil is sitting on a stack of patents too, but now he's just a crazy old man who's scared of dying. Are you planning to start a techno-religion too?
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Just answering questions about my AI Project.
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Actually - I am trying to discuss my AI project and its programming.
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This may be difficult for you to accept but so far nothing you have done or said has distinguished you in any way from all the other crackpots and charlatans that have put in an appearance here over the years. Someone making claims like yours turns up here every week or two. Actually today was a bonanza because we got two of you at once.
Don't think everyone gets the same reception. There are a lot of people here who are capable of introducing themselves without coming across as complete nutters the moment they post. You should study them. It might help your case if you learn to emulate them.
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Lol Jlsilicon is just like me, we "have" stuff, I also am heading towards the singularity. And I explain it by all their abilities and what will happen. Its amazing what I have it would blow your minds.
For now, before my extraordinary presentation video I'm working on, I want to ask yous just a little something:
Dopes everyone here get/understand why the terminator robots have Series that keep getting better quite fast? Do you get what's happening? A com center all clean crystal? T1000 is liquid metal, T3000 can break apart for combat, T5000 is, Joe with spec glasses on. T9000 would be advanced organism made from simple cell creation. Touching you they can do lots since atomically skilled. They can do/become anything.
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Lock - thanks for the point,
Actually I mean Singularity in the Programming perspective - not the SciFi movie viewpoint.
Singularity as in Self Singularity (entirely Understanding Self)
or World Singularity (knowing all about the World)
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btw inurlf: I dont think Trolls belong here - I am sure there is another page for religeous nuts to go to (you stated it) , seems like you dont need my help.
I think you miss the entire level of thinking being discussed here ...
- The Discussion is AI Programming.
Guess you missed that fine detail infurl.
;)
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> Player 2 has joined the game; jlsilicon.
(https://aidreams.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.memeful.com%2Fmedia%2Fpost%2FodgmW7M_700wa_0.gif&hash=e74239296cfc04756509ef4b7438a6e3f5e1db28)
> /players
> 2 players in-game; Locksuit, and jlsilicon
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But it's a free for all...
""""METAL MARIO""""
GO
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Whatever,
If you want to act like idiots ...
- But try finishing school someday kiddies.
Stick with your candyland
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Lol who are you talking to?
Hey jlsilicon, you can code right? Can you code my AI if I explain it to you?
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One main thing with regard to maturity is Tolerance:
1. The power or capacity of an organism to tolerate unfavorable environmental conditions.
2. A disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior.
3. The act of tolerating something or someone.
4. Willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others.
5. A permissible difference; allowing some freedom to move within limits.
Items 3 & 4 should especially be applicable in this thread.
I would expect such disruptive and counterproductive behavior from Middle school children but not visitors nor members of this established and respected site.
The toying, derisive and abusive behavior is not conducive toward good relations and will not be tolerated.
Conduct yourselves like civilized people or find another playground. It's that simple. You know who you are!
@ jlsilicon - Please excuse our younger, enthusiastic members while they pick up their toys. Sorry for their behavior and ill mannered treatment of you, especially as a new member.
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Again, whoooo are you talking to?
Everybody seems to not be saying who lately. (jlsilicon didn't just above you, see my response).
I for one have been trying to be more edicate and understanding lately.
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This behavior has been going on way too long.
Clean it up Now! Remove those childish postings and start acting as mature members of this community or else pick up your toys and find another playground.
You were all NEW members here at one time and yet you have shown this person no acceptance or consideration at all! Shame on you! Posting garbage is not conducive to helping or contributing anything meaningful to this community.
Last warning people.
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Wow this escalated quickly.
I second Art. Please let's all start again and give each other a chance.
Thank you.
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@Art
My sincere apology to jlsilicon if I'm counted in.
It was meant as a joke, I haven't said anything else since jlsilicon joined the forum.
But thanks for the heads up. ;D
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This thread started well, but I think the old problem of not being quite certain of what a person means in text without visual cues has caused it to go off track. This usually leads to a lot of flaming as one builds on the next. I think we have all been there. When you read something worse than it actually is.
A lot of us have been here (and on other forums) for years and have some healthy scepticism when someone claims to have AGI without offering any proof. Or to say they will do it over the weekend. This can often get our feathers ruffled understandably.
But whatever the case, lets just try to give each other the space to flesh out our ideas, crazy or not. Then we will see what can be taken seriously.
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I can try again.
I am aiming for Singularity in my AI project.
Singularity in the sense of the subject.
Ex: Singularity of Self is full Understanding of Self.
A computer does not understand itself - fully.
An Insect understands how to move - but does not have Singularity of Self.
Dragonfly has Singularity in Flying.
An ape or chimp probably has Understanding of Self - considering it Plans and can Predict Results of its Own Actions.
Just discussing the possible Interprettions of the definition of Singularity.
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You could also just say that you're goal is for your A.I. project to one day become "Self-aware".
It seems that Mr. Ray Kurzweil's Singularity term has been used and abused of late and is always met with a raised eyebrow and skepticism. I do get where you're coming from, however. Call it what you will. O0
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I always understood the Singularity to mean the point of no return… when a machine is sufficiently intelligent to build a machine more intelligent than it’s self. Thus starts the cycle of improvement, an explosion in intelligence if you will.
Although it is desirable for an AGI to be self aware, I'm not sure it’s a prerequisite for a machine that has to build a better version of it’s self.
:)
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Self-aware is like knowing gravity. Smarts ~ sensory & motory data stored & used.
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“Self-awareness is the capacity for introspection and the ability to recognize oneself as an individual separate from the environment and other individuals. It is not to be confused with consciousness in the sense of qualia.â€
Self-awareness is recognising/ understanding your own thought processes. Understanding what you are thinking and why you are thinking it. Recognising how you came to a decision and understanding your own personality traits/ thoughts.
:)
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Apes and elephants recognise themselves in mirrors (after some learning).
Just throwing that in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EjukzL-bJc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EjukzL-bJc)
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Self-Awareness, I agree with.
What about Full-Understanding of the World, or Story Writing, or Mathematics, or the Internet?
Scope of Understanding.
These are what I am defining, individually.
It seems wierd to say the Computer is a Genius or Master of a Topic.
I like to say that it has Singularity in Story-Writing, for example.
These are what I am facing now, in labeling my AI, and writing about it.
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An Insect understands how to move - but does not have Singularity of Self.
I'm not so sure about that. How could we judge that an insect isn't self aware ? It's not as readily observable as it is in say apes.
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The elephant simply seen a cue and did actions. Here (here) don't fool yourself with that being "self-aware". A AI learns to crawl/eat and do actions when see " ".
Self-awareness is recognising/ understanding your own thought processes. Understanding what you are thinking and why you are thinking it. Recognising how you came to a decision and understanding your own personality traits/ thoughts.
Let's see, so I have a desicion (or thought processes or recognizing) of a sense (initiates motors) (input>output), and recognize that by - actions then done! Same thing! It's all external and internal cues. Ex. see mouse and kill it. Or have "springing" memory. Or external/internal input mem match and initiates the line "oh boy am I conscious of this and gravity is code!".
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Jisillicon, i have my own completer theory of AGi. It may resonate with you and sorry it is kind of hard to read:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/artificial-general-intelligence/UVUZ93Zep6Y
And self aware too:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/artificial-general-intelligence/javYIQWgLGY
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/artificial-general-intelligence
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A robot does actions, arm, vocal cords, etc, when it sees something (even mentally), or when the actions self-initiate (the sense "trigger" self-initiates first). No "self-aware" ever real. Only a machine doing actions. What you, talkin about? Get it? :) All actions are learned.
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Senses to Body to Motors is coordination.
Actions are practiced and learned.
Predicting Self Actions is Self Awareness.
Thoughts of Self and World is Understanding.
Actually, like WestWorld, I have not necessarilly presented All of my Ideas and AI info.
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@jlsilicon
I like to say that it has Singularity in Story-Writing, for example
Ok! I have no reference to ‘singularity’ being used in this context but it kind’ a makes sense. The AGI has surpassed human abilities and is self learning/ perpetuating at… story telling; in this instance. Yeah I get the logic of that.
These are what I am facing now, in labeling my AI, and writing about it.
Just the usual friendly heads up… extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof… be prepared for people asking deeeeep questions about your project. There are a lot of intelligent people on this forum… they know their stuff; and they are going be curious… and dubious of your claims/ statements.
As I always say… someone… sooner or later will solve the AGI problem space… I hope you have.
@Freddy
I'm not so sure about that. How could we judge that an insect isn't self aware ?
I believe different animals have different levels of ‘consciousness’ depending up on the complexity of their brain structures (not size). I’ve never considered ‘self-awareness’ though… hmmmm?
@Lock
No "self-aware" ever real. Only a machine doing actions.
Each and every ‘thought frame’ or decision you make is made up of past learning/ experience, the current sensory input… as well as the predicted sensory/ events you have learned from experience. When you have a ‘thought’… do you ‘think’ in your native language? How do you feel at this exact moment in time? You are reading this… already making judgements and decisions about how you are going to reply… do you know what you are thinking? Do you understand WHY you are going to write… what you will eventually write? This is part of being self-aware.
A ‘thought’ is not just sensory input and actions… it’s a complex dance between the nuances of past/ present and predicted experience… even your posture/ the room temperature as you write… effect WHAT you will write… and how you will express yourself.
:)
Edit: Apologies if my post seems abrasive… I’m in my games room with friends/ family… I’ve got ‘Slip Knot’ blasting out, big screen flashing, etc while in trying to post, play darts and pool… I thought I was a descent player… apparently not… lol. I blame 'Sailor Jerry' personally...
:)
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"Anybody built any Androids yet ?"
On a tight budget, I built the front part of an android head prototype as a peripheral device.
It moves a set of mechanical lips accurately as it reads text aloud.
Using voice synthesis, it speaks audibly through a personal computer sound card.
Chatbot.TK YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh3H7PZlbrJLGiwpKEUkgTQ (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCh3H7PZlbrJLGiwpKEUkgTQ)
Sharing alpha test videos may be inaudible at times, but that is simply the cell phone quality.
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Knowledge and research in Insects shows that they have very Simple Brains.
* Senses to Body Node.
* Mushroom Node - Short/Longterm Memory (1000-100000 neurons)
* Central Body Motors Coordination Node
* Optic Nodes
* Antennal Lobes
* Cardio Node
* Ganglions - local Motors Controls
=> Total 100K-1M Neurons (1/1B of Human Brain)
Actions and Brain Complexity seem to limit the Insect Behavior to simple Practiced Learning Actions.
It seems that the Insect Brain is Simpler than our Reptil Lower Brain - which has no Consciousness - purely Reactions / Learned.
http://cronodon.com/BioTech/insect_nervous_systems.html (http://cronodon.com/BioTech/insect_nervous_systems.html)
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Knowledge and research in Insects shows that they have very Simple Brains.
* Senses to Body Node.
* Mushroom Node - Short/Longterm Memory (1000-100000 neurons)
* Central Body Motors Coordination Node
* Optic Nodes
* Antennal Lobes
* Cardio Node
* Ganglions - local Motors Controls
=> Total 100K-1M Neurons (1/1B of Human Brain)
Actions and Brain Complexity seem to limit the Insect Behavior to simple Practiced Learning Actions.
It seems that the Insect Brain is Simpler than our Reptil Lower Brain - which has no Consciousness - purely Reactions / Learned.
http://cronodon.com/BioTech/insect_nervous_systems.html (http://cronodon.com/BioTech/insect_nervous_systems.html)
A lot of people see self awareness as an emergent thing - so I guess another question is how minimally complex does an organism need to be to achieve self awareness.
Did you know bees exaggerate when they are on Cocaine ?
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"
No "self-aware" ever real. Only a machine doing actions.
Each and every ‘thought frame’ or decision you make is made up of past learning/ experience, the current sensory input…
... as well as the predicted sensory/ events you have learned from experience.
"
Actually, this brings up an Interesting subject.
I think Consciousness arises above Reactions from Input or Chemistry.
Ie: Think before you leap ...
Thinking and Consciousness is separating YourSelf from Reactions.
One way of Thiinking about it - is to Imagine it as defiing a set of Rules that You follow to make Decisions.
Then, your Decisions are clearly Decided and hopefully Conscious.
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@Freddy
Did you know bees exaggerate when they are on Cocaine ?
Dude… no listen dude… shhhh… listen… snort… you should have seen the size of that frikken flower… snort… it was frikken HUGE dude… no seriously… it was the biggest frikken flower I’ve ever seen… bigger than yo mama's a**… bzzzzzz.. haha… sometimes I amuse myself... ;D
I think the level of self-awareness goes hand-in-hand with brain complexity... as to a definitive scale... I have know idea. But I've made a note of the question... for pondering... :)
Surely the level of self-awareness must be in-line with the animals ability to understand it's... it's... hmmmm... it will come to me :)
@jlsilicon
Thinking and Consciousness is separating YourSelf from Reactions.
This is bordering on the topic of ‘free will’
The first time we experience a situation, we can’t exercise free will.
We don’t actually live in the moment; if we did we would be constantly lagging behind reality. Our brain forms predictions using our internal virtual model of the world as we think it works.
If we are forming predictions they must be based on previous knowledge and experience. You must have the experience/ patterns in place to recognize the current experience in the first place.
So if a situation arises that we have no previous experience of we can’t form a prediction/ choice of predictions based on free will… we have no choices to choose from.
If you are in a bank and someone shouts… FREEZE… you do. The only way to override this is through training and experiencing all the possible combinations likely in life. Hence army and police training! Also causes rabbits and deer to stop in your headlights etc… no previous experience to form a prediction/ reaction too.
We are still conscious of these events… even though we have no previous experiences/ knowledge to base our decisions on…
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So Ants or Grasshoppers will become Self Conscious - via Emergent Behavior ...?
I don't think Consciousness simply arises from Brain Size or Complexity.
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As far as I am aware, living creatures we see today learns through experience. But the problem is; how fast do they learn?
To learn something, they have to have the ability to observe consistency, a pattern. For us humans, we have the highest learning rate.
Brain size and complexity scales how much we can store our memory, how much we can learn, how much functions possible there, how fast we can learn, how long our memory stays intact, and how the memories work together.
A parrot can learn to mimic speeches, they can also be teach to do entertainment performances. But that's the limit of what parrot can do. Sure they can be teach a little more that related to linguistic, but they won't able to go far because there just isn't enough brain capacity for them, nor enough brain sections for more functions to be override in. Possible due to their smaller size in brain, or lesser brain complexity.
Consciousness is a voluntary self aware, the ability of free will, that makes us experience and remember the things have done. You do not learn nor able to do anything when you are lying there unconscious.
Self consciousness can be because of survival. The base mechanism of all life. Thus to achieve self consciousness, you need AI to understand the basic of survival, the ability to survive, and what it is meant to survive.
Greetings, jsilicon, I'm a philosopher. ;)
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So Ants or Grasshoppers will become Self Conscious - via Emergent Behavior ...?
I believe in consciousness being an emergent property of a complex system. I think the level of consciousness is relative to the animal’s mental capacity. I’m open to being swayed by logic though… the more insight we can gather the better.
If you read my project pages… you will see some of my progress toward a ‘conscious’ machine.
http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10804.0#.WESlyNSLRhE (http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10804.0#.WESlyNSLRhE)
I don't think Consciousness simply arises from Brain Size or Complexity.
Where do you think consciousness arises from?
:)
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I am not arguing otherwise.
I think organsims thinking is based off of the brain's capabilities.
The elephant brain has a lot larger than human Brain - but not as many Cortex folds as the Human's.
Can Insects be Conscious ?
As I listed earlier, Insects are missing many Layers of Brain that Animals have.
Insects seem to be Reaction Machines that learn minimal.
The brain is probably more for practicing Body movements.
I think that the Human Brain is defined to suport Consciousness.
But Consciousness is Emergent -in that it needs to be Learned - else it is deadbeat.
I think this is the 'Full-Circle' lesson that we present in Robot Stories enough.
- Which is also also probably at the same time the 'Understanding Self' principal.
> Where do you think consciousness arises from?
Is a Dictionary Conscious ?
- Is the Internet ??
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Self consciousness can be because of survival. The base mechanism of all life. Thus to achieve self consciousness, you need AI to understand the basic of survival, the ability to survive, and what it is meant to survive.
Funny, I was thinking this earlier. I was going to suggest that a mouse is self aware as it tries to escape a cat. If it had no self awareness why would it do that ?
So Ants or Grasshoppers will become Self Conscious - via Emergent Behavior ...?
I don't think Consciousness simply arises from Brain Size or Complexity.
I don't know, just following a train of thought and things other people have postulated, but I don't see anything that makes me decide that insects are not self aware.
Dude… no listen dude… shhhh… listen… snort… you should have seen the size of that frikken flower… snort… it was frikken HUGE dude… no seriously… it was the biggest frikken flower I’ve ever seen… bigger than yo mama's a**… bzzzzzz.. haha… sometimes I amuse myself... ;D
That really made me laugh. ;D
Edit: there were a few posts while I wrote this, so I haven't commented on some things I may later.
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I think that the Human Brain is defined to suport Consciousness.
But Consciousness is Emergent -in that it needs to be Learned - else it is deadbeat.
This notion seems to be shown in the elephant video - at first the elephant did not show self awareness, but later learnt it was looking at itself. I feel I'm seriously over simplifying that though.
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It seems like we are all working/ thinking along similar lines.
I suppose consciousness is learned in a way… I think it definitely changes as we grow older and wiser (lol)… so it must be learned… influenced/ shaped by experience.
When I think… I think in English… I can obviously imagine objects/ images/ experiences/ etc but I have always wondered… how humans ‘think’ who have no experience of language. Do they ‘think’ in images… or slices of experience… what construct do they use.
To me… when I imagine a timeline… the past is to the left and the future to the right. Is this because of the way we write? Do the Chinese have an inverse imagined timeline because they write right to left? I need to look this up.
:)
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Korrelan, I looked over your Thread of your Neural Net project.
Seems like a lot of Excellent results from it.
Does it present Consciousness ?
> catch 22… the AGI needs a body and senses to experience our world,
> but if I spend to much time developing the bot then I’m not working on the AGI cortex, which is the main project.
- agreed - one distracts from the other in project time.
I can only be glad to have worked on the different robot parts many times in past years.
(professional robotics engineer: vision analysis, embedded programming, etc)
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Earlier notes:
Keep in mind the 'Mind' developes through learning / maturity phases through life:
- 1 months - senses awareness
- 2m - coordination / reactions
- 6m - imitation
- 9m - likes / dislikes
- 1 year - words
- 1.5y - questions / answering
- 2y - object familiarity
- 5y - pretending
...
10y - world awareness
12y - self to world importance
14y - abstract thinking
etc...
Also, interests follow maturity phases.
Age for structure (blocks) , drawing (perspectives), news, etc - Interests.
I am not saying simply, that Conscious is learned, more like practiced using the capabilities.
Do you learn to see ? - I think this comes from learning what you have to use.
Same with Language, much is builtin. Who can speak Dolphin ?
- but dolphins simply can speak with each other !
Because we evolved different brains.
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The elephant could think it sees another elephant, or maybe testing cause and effect.
Birds react to mirrors - probably more for another bird / social reaction.
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The Mouse does not need to be Self-Aware to flee a threat.
Just emotions and instinct.
It just needs to be aware of the Cat !
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Q: We can not see Infrared or Ultraviolet Light
... Are we (Not) SelfAware because we are Blind to these parts of the world ... ?
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It just needs to be aware of the Cat !
Good one !
This conversation makes me wish I could remember the first time I saw myself in a mirror.
I go with the idea that self-awareness evolves as we grow older. We're always testing things as we go along in life. A prod here a poke there. Curiosity must be some part of self awareness.
@Korrelan, I tend to think and structure things left to right too - left is past, right is future here too.
People lacking some sense - yes, that is difficult to understand. Some time ago I learnt about Chromesthesia - people who see music in colours. There was this 'experience' for the Oculus Rift that showed you what this was like. The woman (who had this) showed that she saw flashes of light according to the musical note - and they had replicated what she saw. Can't find it on YouTube though.
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Will reply tomorrow... 1 am here.. cheers.
:)
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"Funny, I was thinking this earlier. I was going to suggest that a mouse is self aware as it tries to escape a cat. If it had no self awareness why would it do that ?"
-------- Learnt actions that either got reward sense (even stopping bad reward senses) OR learnt actions that are linked to senses that did get reward. Done on cue.
"Thinking and Consciousness is separating YourSelf from Reactions.
One way of Thiinking about it - is to Imagine it as defiing a set of Rules that You follow to make Decisions.
Then, your Decisions are clearly Decided and hopefully Conscious."
--------- No con. we robots, talking is actions done, thinking is senses being remembered when matched/fire and "directs" actions and saves/links senses too yep. Set of decision rules is that artificially linked reward as explained above, and are linked senses in a bar played out/matched easily now. Actions done, er no con. we robots. We do create a sensin ghost though.
A ‘thought’ is not just sensory input and actions… it’s a complex dance between the nuances of past/ present and predicted experience… even your posture/ the room temperature as you write… effect WHAT you will write… and how you will express yourself."
---------- Explained thoughts above, understanding is actions done you just say n do it all. No see = can't do right actions (not selected). Only senses and actions and their metadata exist in brain. You move, or you mentally see mom in memory, nothing else.
"Each and every ‘thought frame’ or decision you make is made up of past learning/ experience, the current sensory input… as well as the predicted sensory/ events you have learned from experience. When you have a ‘thought’… do you ‘think’ in your native language? How do you feel at this exact moment in time? You are reading this… already making judgements and decisions about how you are going to reply… do you know what you are thinking? Do you understand WHY you are going to write… what you will eventually write? This is part of being self-aware.
---------- Explained above, sense selection and therefore linked actions selected is by input, done if + rewarded (experience), 1 set in history bar has all motors actions tried & 5 senses saved if all 5 pass attention system, all your memory does affect the search target by strong neuron's energy that increases etc etc. Predictive is just explained - input search is affected. Selection has linked senses. Only by cue you will act. Explained above, i think in native language (images linked to English words/sounds n write/read actions) which ends up resulting in actions by remembering selected senses and also as said saves n links too while at it. I feel nothing while reading this. I want goods. Immortality of goods. I am writing to you. My judments/decisions as I read your text are on cue I say/write actions, linked senses n actions to selected senses exist, and mem's draw on the input's search. I don't know what I am thinking, only what I see on my screen and what the screen selects in my head while possibly sensing a pop up memory that may fire on its own. Understand WHY going to write what'll write - yes, if asked or happens to be selected (I have all ways), then your question plus special word ex. Why You Say > AI IS " "? Matches and I do actions on cue. Me understanding this is because I have noted down how it all works and images linked etc save match cue blahblah and you go and ask me basically "How" > "All above^"? and I do actions. How I understand and did actions for THAT is cus I'm pro. How I understood to say that is because a image n linked words standing for "infinite" is linked to it and so I will keep doing actions under that n undertstand that n underst that n understands that. Again shall we? I writing soooooo fast gotta sleep, my notes are more correct this is all from memory.
" Ie: Think before you leap ..."
---------- Cue match n start remembering selected/linked strong senses which affect actions selection set a actions.
Bonus note I wrote but will share now:
0-language people SENSE, sense is the initiater! If they learned left to right/vice-versa writing/timeline bar then they see that when remember.
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Locksuit,
I am not arguing about the learning process.
But, I do know that there is a point at which to define a system of Rules.
There is a time, when you drop the lessons -and take on Independent Decision Making.
Even in programming, once you compile a program - you don't care about the Compiler that got you there.
- Might explain why - people Rarely Remember being a baby - probably a level of temporary framework dropped from the mind as you mature (maybe as instinct).
Who says Thoughts end in Senses and Motors ?
- What about Future, Structures, Abstracts, etc ... ?
- - chinese doesn't even have a Future Tense like 'will' - literal translation is "This ___ intends to occur" (I forget precisely)
Actually, I think maybe a Mouse is Conscious in some sense. It collects parts and food for a nest (plans ?). It seems to look and Decide.
My cat is indoor (afraid of the outside). But, she new Very Quickly what a Bird is (by movement and smell). She loved hanging at the balcony door trying to catch them.
I had rescued baby birds that fell out of a nest once, kept them for a few days in a box feeding them, until they could fly out of the box and away. My cat found those birds in that box - 5 minutes after that box was in the living room - should have seen Her Eyes - Never saw such Intensity in them before (or again). I had that Box and the birds Safely Out on the balcony -after that point of course.
Took my Cat Many Years to UnLearn Birds - just to ignore them.
So - how much do cats need to learn (about birds) then ??
Q: What happens if the Mouse does not know the Cat - or Fails the first or second lesson about Cats ... ?
It is late for writing - and I am losing Conscious connections in my head now.
So, excuse me if my thoughts run short.
Locksuit - good job at your deep explanation.
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Personally, I feel that every living thing is self aware in one sense or another.
The problem is that we humans, don't and can't understand them, how their tiny minds work, how ants and bees are incredibly organized societies, caring, helping, sharing the work, regulating their environment, doing what ever their tiny minds deem necessary for them to survive, not too unlike humans.
Most animals are quite capable of memory and many of long term memory, compassion, helping, jealousy, fighting, nursing, loving. Yet we would say that they are not self aware? Really? I don't think that's fair or reasonable. Again, this is just my take but it is what I believe so it is what it is.
As far as them being able to comb their hair in a mirror or recite a passage from Shakespeare's Hamlet, that is obviously an ability that a lot of humans pride themselves on being able to do. Not all but some. Why not all? Would they not be self aware? Do some savants exhibit that same trait? They don't do except that which they are told or directed under a close watchful caregiver. Does that make them less human in that regard? Yet they can tell you what day of the week you were born on in a couple of seconds or the population of London, England based on the 2015 Census. What's that say for the rest of us? By some intelligence counts that would almost put us years behind in development, compared to them.
Basically, they have little to no social skills but often great musical or mathematical or cognitive skills. Some are barely what we'd call self aware.
One problem is we have a difficult time trying to define Intelligence or to measure IQ or Self Aware. We simply label those things as we will and as they suit us for our needs at the moment. Some of it is done for documentation or discussion or for practical experiments, but our own definition might only apply to us and not to everyone else, in the broader sense.
Whatever the case, it's just more to think about...
It's almost like Deja Vu all over again!
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Good point ... hm,
I think the point between Awareness and Consciousness - needs to be mentioned here.
Awareness - is knowledge of somethings exist and/or occurences happened (just knowing the now).
ex: I am aware of the plants (and World).
ex2: Mouse is Aware of the Cat (and world).
Consciousness - is ability to manipulate the idea in the mind (including predicting / planning / modifying / etc).
ex: I consciously think/decide/predict/plan/change the growing of plants (farming) (and World).
ex2: Mouse Consciously predicts/plans around the Cat (and World).
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Omg… major hangover lol (note to self… must get a quieter keyboard). Thought I’d slip a post in before work.
@jlsilicon
Does it present Consciousness ?
You have to careful not to upset people or make claims that you can’t substantiate. This is a machine simulation of machine ‘consciousness’… not human. When I use the term ’consciousness’ from now on it refers to my interpretation of machine consciousness.
I’ve spent many years researching and designing this AGI to exhibit consciousness… it will have no choice… the design ‘forces’ consciousness. It might not initially be a ‘human type’ consciousness but it is certainly intelligent lol. I’m also extremely confident self-awareness will eventually arise… as I understand it to work… again the system is designed to force (my version) of self-awareness.
Savantism, Synaesthesia, split personality disorders, epilepsy, even hypnotism, etc can all arise in the AGI by design. I considered the possible causes of these disorders whilst designing the AGI and used them as references to refine the design. If the AGI looses vision for example, eventually the cortex areas (V1, etc) dedicated to vision will be taken over by the other senses to enhance their function/ resolution, it’s an inherent part of the learning/ development processes.
The narrow fields of learning I’ve applied the AGI too so far are all showing positive traits that the ‘spark’ of consciousness is present, as I understand/ expect it to manifest (my interpretation).
I have the usual problem of running my business and finding time to work on the AGI; so progress has been slow. I’ve solved 90% of the problems now though so development speed should pick up.
@Freddy
@Korrelan, I tend to think and structure things left to right too - left is past, right is future here too.
I read an article many years ago about an isolated tribe who lived in the jungle next to a river. When tested by physiologists their ‘time line’ ran from up to down… the interpretation was that the because the river played such an important role in the lives they basically saw the past as up stream… and the flow of time/ river as the present and future… weird.
Some time ago I learnt about Chromesthesia - people who see music in colours.
Ahh.. Synaesthesia… Another form is when people see certain letters in various colours. A study a few years back linked this to the old ‘Fisher Price’ fridge magnets for kids. A very high percentage of the colours envisioned matched the colours of the magnets… a link at a very early age was made between the colour and a specific letter of the alphabet… cool.
@Art
I think savant syndrome is explainable. The human brain has a finite bandwidth (and volume) to carry/ process information… the brain is very plastic and sections will take over/ enhance existing sections if they are not used. Unfortunately for the savants their extraordinary skill sets come at the cost of other innate abilities. Pieces of their ‘consciousness/ mental tools’ are missing (eg emotion) due to developmental reasons/ damage. That means the bandwidth that would have been used by the missing sections if freed up, and the areas of cortex that would have been dedicated to the missing traits become available to enhance existing traits. I'd much rather have the full average set of mental attributes lol, though we all differ in our mental abilities... and we are all slightly paranoid, schizophrenic, etc but we fit into the accepted ‘norm’.
Time for work… laters.
:)
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Yes, good points, Korrelan,
If you close your Eyes, your Hearing Sensitivity is increased.
If you cover your Ears, your Eyes can distinguish more.
Good experiment that I showed:
Note kids on Television - do not Hear you, do not Play, just Tv zombies.
But, if you let the kids watch Tv only if Muted ,
- then suddenly they can Hear and Talk with You (and each Other) - and Play with their Toys while Watching Tv.
Example of Dual Sensory Channels being Used, Monopolizes the Mind.
Besides the Sensory 'Bandwidth' - you are also using more of the Brain
- Dual Sensory Visual and Audio here is using both Data Input / Recognition -and- Audio Feedback / Verification.
More Thinking Used - Not necessarily the Best Thinking - of course ...
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If you close your Eyes, your Hearing Sensitivity is increased.
If you cover your Ears, your Eyes can distinguish more.
I have the attention system blueprint.
Who says Thoughts end in Senses and Motors ?
- What about Future, Structures, Abstracts, etc ... ?
Future thoughts is seeing stuff, all senses. All day I either move my but, or keep mentally seeing cupcakes in my head. Nothin else I know about. Senses & actions only. All of brain is dedicated to them.
tribe time line up to down
Yeah any way you want I know this well. They actually place their objects like that or mentally just pops-in downways. Memory history exists, bar, with many connections. All else is actions. Keep talking about time, I go to do actions today now. Your'll simply save some weird senses after selecting your senses and will affect your actions set selection. Senses & actions aren't magically done, only selected.
Actually, I think maybe a Mouse is Conscious in some sense. It collects parts and food for a nest (plans ?). It seems to look and Decide.
Oh yegh really. As for it's smart behaviour: look-n-decide, actions are done on cue/self-fire to hunt, notice while outside, look, approach. Ex. go outside by self-fire, seeing twigs selects get actions, seeing outside/tree selects look 180 degrees motions. Take that waha! And you thought it was magic slef-awrRRE ConSciouNUSSSS angel god stuff u know//.
predicting / planning / modifying / etc).
ex: I consciously think/decide/predict/plan/change the growing of plants (farming) (and World).
Oh god, farming. First word you said, "I consciously". BUZZZ Wrong. Also Snasci seems to say it does " " without explaining, common beginner mistakes. Yes I advanced hmmm yoda yottabytes anyone yum (yum I give you) so ok here. Ok, now. >, ^. . . > thinking I explained, decide is actions on cue or self-fire neuron, plan is same sorry, predict is same sorry (actions) plus cue/self-fire can partilly select (by matching) mem sense (actions are linked to senses).
Most animals are quite capable of memory and many of long term memory, compassion, helping, jealousy, fighting, nursing, loving. Yet we would say that they are not self aware? Really?
Compassion is actions for rewards es even building a house it is why. Helping too. Jealousy too I attack you to get good (by stopping the seeing of John PLUS seeing girl). Fighting same. Nursing = rewardsssssssssssssssssssss. And your last but not least word, love, is reeeeeeeeeeeeeewardsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss. Yes no self-aware please stop.
IQ
There's the body, intelligence system, anddddddd da saved senses & actions and their metadata linked.
self aware
Some are good in math and music but not social and not aware, simply being aware is the robot doing a whole bunch of actions.
You don't even realize you are a robot do you? We can't live like that. Keeping thinking us aware is magic. Just us carrying out actions with arms/mouth. And magical consciousnesses don't exist. We robots. But yes AI creates a sensing ghost, has to be something (separate from physics) that senses n not particles blah.
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Ahh.. Synaesthesia… Another form is when people see certain letters in various colours. A study a few years back linked this to the old ‘Fisher Price’ fridge magnets for kids. A very high percentage of the colours envisioned matched the colours of the magnets… a link at a very early age was made between the colour and a specific letter of the alphabet… cool.
@Korrelan,
Interesting. I picture the months/seasons in colours. I trace this back to a calendar in my school when I was about five or six years old. But this is just mental for me - not quite like the people who see colours for music that actually visualise it.
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The calander seasons is images linked to images. Remembering or seeing one is linking to the other.
The music color people is images linked to sounds. Seeing or remembering one is linking to the other.
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I don't see images though, I just get an impression of a colour. I do think that my experience is learnt though. I already had linked the calendar I remember in my youth to this sensation as already mentioned.
The music color people is images linked to sounds. Seeing or remembering one is linking to the other.
I'm not so sure. They don't see images as such, they see flashes of colours/light according to the sound they hear. At least from what I have seen. You are implying that it is learnt behaviour when it could be neurological and innate.
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We are born with 100+ billion neurons, nearly twice as many as an adult eventually ends up with; all compressed into brain half the volume of an adult (cortex). The young human mind evolved to soak up knowledge at a phenomenal rate. At various stages during early development (3 yrs) as the volume expands the number of neurons is culled. Weak neurons and synaptic links are pruned…this produces a basic neural scaffold/ framework on which to build our teenage minds. It also happens again when we are in our teens, major changes occur as the body is flushed with testosterone/ oestrogen. Teens are a pain in the a** for a good reason.
During this early development when the brain is learning the basics of being a human it is extremely plastic, if some connection between seemingly unconnected experiences (music/ colour, letters/ colour, months/ colour) is repeated or experienced enough times it will be permanently imprinted. This kind of repetitive ‘imprinting’ has no equivalent/ parallel in natural human evolution and nature. It’s a ‘side effect’ or phenomena triggered by the environment we have designed for ourselves and our off spring… the evolution of our brain development hasn’t had time to catch up and compensate.
The same processes evolved to learn a particular mouth shape goes with a particular sound/ phoneme also learns a particular shape we see every day on the fridge door is always red… and always will be.
@Lock
Keeping thinking us aware is magic
There is nothing magic about consciousness or self awareness; they are both explainable phenomena.
:)
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Oh, in that case Freddy then automatically seeing red by the system for a certain sound is completely useless.
Yes just as in my notes, you may not see the linked image to the say externally seen image, but you'll do the actions once the linked image from the other image is selected.
Remember back to the CRAWL ACCELOMETER learning + add a sprinkle of my knowledge = in memory stored sits the cue, linked to actions, and when see cue selects linked actions, BUT when see cue it enters and selects the memory but you don't see the selected memory for the next cue unless is stronger than the external sense when passing meh attention system.
Yes you know we are robots pcs but don't call it conscious or self-aware, that refers to magical souls that which is NOT a mechanism. We are only a mechanism. You may not know my info and how we act and do what we do, but at least realize it is a mechanism no different than a telephone or crank or steam engine. Our aware/conscious behavior is just that. And you're calling it a name that other simple things we/devices do aren't being called, for example our fingers that all curl in at the same time or waterfall isn't called those big names and neither should this behavior, it is simple just not understood. While if was complex wouldn't change this point. It's just a mechanism reaction of physics particles.
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Bonus note: Ivan was wrong cus well no image ~ face etc is "mean" or "steals" etc, the way I talk doesn't mean I am a black poor rude person as he said. Remember, we are robots (oh yes), and despite the top front face plate, (MIGHTY VOICE) I CAN PUUT ANYYYTTHING IN THAT THING WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
SENDS CUTE LITTLE GIRL IN - SUPER MASSIVE CIA JOE PLANTING NUKE AND SETTING UP A EATH HABITAT NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ROGER, ROGER THAT
CALLLLLLING IN 7 4 3 2 1 9 9 9 9 9 SEND IT OFF
MORPHS INTO GODZILLA
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Any of you English folks hear of Daniel Temmet? You should check him out if not.
Daniel sees numbers as shapes, colours and textures and can perform extraordinary maths in his head. He can also learn to speak a language fluently from scratch in a week. He has Savant Syndrome, an extremely rare form of Asperger's that gives him almost unimaginable mental powers.
Quite an interesting and gifted fellow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet)
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Oh, in that case Freddy then automatically seeing red by the system for a certain sound is completely useless.
Who said it had to be useful ? An earwig has wings but doesn't use them.
Yes just as in my notes, you may not see the linked image to the say externally seen image, but you'll do the actions once the linked image from the other image is selected.
Well done for having an opinion. But you lack proof.
I am just throwing ideas into the conversation, not trying to force my opinion on anyone.
SENDS CUTE LITTLE GIRL IN - SUPER MASSIVE CIA JOE PLANTING NUKE AND SETTING UP A EATH HABITAT NAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ROGER, ROGER THAT
CALLLLLLING IN 7 4 3 2 1 9 9 9 9 9 SEND IT OFF
MORPHS INTO GODZILLA
Do you want to be taken seriously ?
Any of you English folks hear of Daniel Temmet? You should check him out if not.
Thanks Art O0
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Yes you know we are robots pcs but don't call it conscious or self-aware.
We're simply using known and fairly well understood terms. What do you prefer - make something new up to mean the same thing ?
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I prefer to not call it conscious/self-aware lol.....just call it a robot reaction like a rock falling off a hill or dishwasher. Just call us a machine robot particles reactions.
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I prefer to not call it conscious/self-aware lol.....just call it a robot reaction like a rock falling off a hill or dishwasher. Just call us a machine robot particles reactions.
I don't disagree that we are biological machines. An arm is a lever.
And yes everything is made of particles, atoms etc... basic physics.
Humans are humans. Robots are robots. It's simpler to differentiate them in casual conversation despite some similarities.
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Just call us a machine robot particles reactions.
Okay, so a machine robot particle reaction went into a bar.
The barman looked up and said "Is this some kind of joke ?".
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Not joking you.
All is particles, me, my room. Particles work by physics.
While we seem complex it is just a globious of particles, all, playing out. If you recognize then you operate. You are fooled without knowing it.
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Umm, no one is saying we are not made of particles. For some reason you keep repeating this notion again and again.
Humans are a complex system of particles.
Have you ever heard the saying "More than the sum of it's parts" ?
You are fooled without knowing it.
There you go again. Most of us learnt that the world is made of particles in first year Physics - it's not new Locksuit. Really.
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I missed your 1st reply out of your 2 replies. Sorry I purged it/repeated.
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No problem. Sorry I woke up in a bad mood today, nothing personal, didn't sleep well... :uglystupid2:
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Any of you English folks hear of Daniel Temmet? You should check him out if not.
Daniel sees numbers as shapes, colours and textures and can perform extraordinary maths in his head. He can also learn to speak a language fluently from scratch in a week. He has Savant Syndrome, an extremely rare form of Asperger's that gives him almost unimaginable mental powers.
Quite an interesting and gifted fellow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet)
I knew there was something I saw this morning that I meant to comment on.
No I had not, thanks. From the Wikipedia page I found there is a documentary about him. I found it on YouTube, not sure if it is accessible by all though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATvg2NxMsQk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATvg2NxMsQk)
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This is not about Particles nor Particle Physics...it's about Self Aware and the possibility of constructing an operating Android or Humanoid or Machanoid that is able to "think" for itself. That it is or could be Aware that it exists or in that vein, that it is an object with a goal or mission to perform or live out under an initial set of rules. Some could be self directed and others could be follow the line as best you can without too much deviation, according to the programming.
@ jlsilicon - I sort of have to disagree with: "If you close your Eyes, your Hearing Sensitivity is increased.
If you cover your Ears, your Eyes can distinguish more."
This is not quite the case as I have had friends who were blind and others who were deaf. Their other senses were not "increased nor heightened", they simply relied more on the remaining senses that they had. But your context is noted and understood.
Most have seen the TV series, HUMANS, which I thought was pretty nicely done but these were a unique group of "service" bots that had actually become "self aware". They knew this but pretended that they were still a normal, run-of-the-mill service android, doing their daily tasks.
Hopefully, if we ever get to that state, there should be some type of check and balance built in to the bot that would sync or check in on a regular basis to verify that all was in proper working order. (unless the bots become smart enough to bypass that). Who knows.
The future is going to be very interesting indeed and it's coming to an Android near you!
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@Freddy & Art
Cool documentary. I’d not seen that one though I had heard of Mr. Temmet… very inspirational guy… from both a personal and research perspective.
@ jlsilicon
If you cover your Ears, your Eyes can distinguish more.
There are many studied and documented examples of this type of behaviour. Some people when asked a memory intensive question will look up to the side, some defocus their vision and stare into the distance for a few seconds, some close their eyes. Some, especially males will turn the radio off in the car when concentrating on a particularly complex piece of driving; like route tracking/ finding. Mostly a person will either freeze/ pause or slowdown their actions if they are performing a complex mental task; all these ‘shows’ are examples of us limiting the neural ‘noise/ pattern’ enabling us to focus on the question at hand. True human ‘multitasking’ is a fallacy; especially if two tasks require the use of similar brain regions. For people born with a sensory deficit ie blindness, it has been shown (I’ll find research articles) that reading brail utilizes areas of the brain normally tasked to visual spatial awareness, etc.
Edit: I’ll add my reasoning on how this works. It’s basically a miss understanding by academia of how the brain processes information. We humans love to categorize areas and give them specific names; our machines to date have been based on… one specific mechanism does one specific job. I think in the brain all cortex areas receive a combined watered down version of all sensory input from all senses. Each area does semi-specialize in recognising traits of the overall sensory pattern by extracting the relevant facets based on the qualities of the data. The location/ termination of white matter tracts supplying sensory data does effectively sway/ tune some areas towards a particular facet of the sensory stream but overall it’s an all too all connectome. So when a blind person is shown to be utilizing a visual area for tactile processing it’s not that the brain has re-directed the sensory stimulus; it’s just that the area is processing what ever is left available in the global sensory pattern.
Using this reasoning is easier to understand how Mr. Temmets savantism works. The average human will have a number understanding based on learned logic from schooling, etc. Mr Temmet is processing numbers with the help of his visual/ location (problem solution landscapes) awareness etc… he’s integrated numbers/ math into a lot more brain areas than you or I, and is able to lever/ utilise the strengths of those areas against math problems. Numbers and math are engrained into his general consciousness… his whole brain is adept at math, everything he sees, feels or experiences has an element of math.
@Lock
I prefer to not call it conscious/self-aware lol.....just call it a robot reaction like a rock falling off a hill or dishwasher. Just call us a machine robot particles reactions.
You can call it anything you like… but I think you are wrong. Consciousness and self aware are collective terms that describe a complex range of phenomenon that arise in or brains.
Simplification of a topic has its uses but not to the point where you loose the resolution of the problem space; hoping/ saying something is simple does not make it so.
:)
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Not saying it's simple korrelan, just that when you see me in my room acting "conscious" or "aware", it is da AI.
Mm, korrelan, you know, when I answer math questions it is by the external sensory input searching and selecting a stored image or sound and linking to other senses and the actions on the other side. It is already visual. And doesn't matter how many areas hold say images of numbers - the search only selects one image and one set of motor actions. This is not a calculator. But can speak/write the answers.
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Sounds like you have it all sorted out.
I look forward to seeing the system in action.
:)
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Some good timing here to answer the original question :
Tony Ellis and his robots : http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11682 (http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=11682)