[Freddy]

Found this article today, title says it all really - some interesting points.  Highlighting the new 'Elmo' toy that has been released and how growing up with robots may change things for future generations.

http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-02/st_essay

Excerpt :

"This question is starting to get debated by robot designers and toymakers. With advanced robotics becoming cheaper and more commonplace, the challenge isn't how we learn to accept robots—but whether we should care when they're mistreated. And if we start caring about robot ethics, might we then go one insane step further and grant them rights?"

From wired.com

[Maviarab]

And if we start caring about robot ethics, might we then go one insane step further and grant them rights?"

And that as they say...is the million dollar question

[Art]

But Freddy...we can see you've already made up your mind on the issue before it's even happened.

We read in a snip from your comment <...might we then go one insane step further and grant them rights?">

Insane step...grant them rights?   Come on and think on this a bit. Look ahead a few years or even a decade.

Robots are everywhere...not clunking machines that trip when trying to walk up a set of steps but a 'flesh' covered
android that looks and acts exactly like a human...that has and exhibits feelings, compassion and emotions.

This entity serves as a companion for the lonely, an assistant for the infirmed or elderly, a mentor or a tutor for
a learning disabled youngster, a friend, a confidant, a trusted advisor...etc...etc.  This entity has never harmed a
human nor placed a human in harms way and has only, always tried to aid, shelter, teach, protect and befriend
their human chargee yet you would easily throw your arms up and allow for their mistreatment or abuse?

Sure, why not...after all they're just machines.

How advanced and how humanlike might be the benchmark by which they are judged and granted freedoms.
Seriously...I can see your logic...I can see some people writing laws in order to establish an Android's Bill of Rights.
In trouble? I know a good android lawyer who can get you off cheap!! Be sure to smile when he looks at you!

The future looks to be both interesting and scary at the same time....

[Freddy]

Sure, I can go along with what you are saying Art, but those few lines were not my comments, they were an excerpt from the article and not penned by me at all...

My mind is not closed to the possibilities.

[Art]

Sorry about that Freddy (I honestly missed noticing that)....<hanging head>

But what ARE your thoughts or opinions on the subject?

Do you think society will ever get there? There being the point where we will
NEED to govern the masses of androids, helper-bots, etc.?

[Maviarab]

In my honest opinion, humans are too controlling to allow machines of any description any kind of rights. Just my thoughts on the matter. If it were to happen, I feel it would be a big a step. But then, in our intellect, would we actually create something that 'could possibly' be given rights?

[Freddy]

No problem Art, that can easily happen.

If anyone is keen on anthropomorphism then there are plenty of examples of how machines have already been given human-like/sentient status.  Take the Tamagotchi toy which is still going strong.  Kids look after them like real pets and even in the UK we have had grave-yards for them when they die, complete with tearful children mourning their loss.  So really it is nothing new, it's just a question of how this will scale out into the future as we make more and more lifelike things.  In most cases it does not seem necessary to grant rights, because we as humans are quite willing to treat machines as if they are alive, a good friend or a faithful companion anyway.  We do this already and act in accordance with the spirit we have imbued them with.

So will it happen ?  I think not exactly - but unofficially it already has.

Another thing - with regard to our PC's we already have a machine to which we grant certain permissions - take a firewall as an example - we use that to grant permissions to other programs to do what ever they are programmed to do.  Some we allow, others we limit and some we block entirely.  If we're doing this with non-sentient things then why should we consider sentient machines any differently in the future should that happen ?  Probably the main worry here is; will we or at least someone somewhere fully understand what they are doing ?  If they have thoughts of their own, is it going to do something we don't want ? 

So it comes down to control - will we be willing to let them loose ?  Will they play by the rules, can we trust them.  So giving a machine rights seems more credible when you consider them as a consequence of control - we may need to give them rights if only to make it clear what is wrong.  At the end of the day, isn't it still programming ?  It will probably be called Bio-Programming or Sentience Control Language.

I think the story Frankenstein sheds a lot of light.

[Art]

IT'S ALIVE...IT'S ALIVE!!  Hehe...nice analogy I agree and quite apropos especially given todays climate of machine technology, android development, brains in a box (no offense to Marius or the DG Story!).

It is a subject that is worthy of discussion, reflection and noting because I think it will only become more focused in the future.

There are hundred or thousands if not more developers, researchers, scientists, experimenters and hobbyists plying their respective trades in order to come to grips with AI or simulated intelligence in its raw form and in a practical form. To "perfect" the knowledge base as it applies to their particular application then install it into a servicable 'assistant' be it a wheeled or biped creature is still the plan of many. To create their own mechanical Frankenstein, droid, robot, servant, would give them recognition, power and wealth for as we all were told, "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door!"

To improve on an 'original design' takes courage, stamina, determination and deep pockets! May the best one win!!

[Freddy]

Yes a lot of our current reservations about intelligent-but-man-made entities must come straight from the Science-Fiction books.  I always have that idea that Science-Fiction becomes Science-Fact in my mind though.

As you say Art, definitely worth discussion as all of this technology makes it's way into our homes and lives.

It's hard to say how many people are working on this isn't it...I thought we covered a lot of ground a couple of years back, but every day I find something new and the growth does not seem to be slowing.  Personally I am looking forward to Guile and Mikmoth's work being released (they of the Vhumans Forum).  I think UltraHal has got some competition now.

Here's a bit more reading.

[Art]

Well, Robert Medeksza of Zabaware has already released a beta version of UltraHal 6.2 or 6.3 with the full release to follow in a short period of time. It is said to have a lot of improvements over the previous versions.

Mikmoth's KARI is nothing short of amazing in the AI department. The KARI program allows for MANY settings and tweaks to affect various abilities of the character. Kari has grown quite smart in a relatively short time and I'd strongly encourage those interested in exploring AI further to give the program a try!!

Guile3D has come up with some very lifelike gals in the confines of his program. Guile is a very talented individual and I think his software holds a lot of promise for future applications.

Toborman is also working on an AI project at the moment.

[Freddy]

Yes there's some really exciting things going on over there.

Was thinking some more about machines with rights.  I don't think a lot of people will actually take much notice, I mean if you ever run a website then every day you come across bots that cause you problems. Spam bots are the best example of what I mean.  These run without compromise and without rules to govern them.  Seems to me that even without sentience we have a royal pain in the buttocks already, just imagine what sentient bots will be like.

[Art]

Yes, for those spam bots and other little snooping digital denizens of dark deeds I'd gladly pull the trigger to eradicate them from cyberspace forever. Go ahead...ask me how I really feel!!!!!!

The same goes for witers of virus programs, trojans, worms and other vermin!
 

[Freddy]

Yes, agreed.  I had to put Captcha on the Chatterbot Collection - which if you don't know is one of those 'type in the code' things to eliminate spam bots.  Even this doesn't always work though, some bots can still get through as we found with the forum version.  So I am in the business of denying rights to machines, at least some of the time!

This story illustrates that we really do need to control machines sentient or not:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090119/tuk-computer-worm-goes-out-of-control-45dbed5.html

[Art]

Great! Just what we need...a virus that calls, loads and runs other virii in the same system! I heard about this running rampant in Europe but did not know to what extent.

Looks like I'm going to be using my Linux box while online for a while.
Ubuntu -it just works!

[Freddy]

I'd like to run Linux just for web browsing, as that's the main entry point for viruses etc.  I haven't figured out how to get my Splash-Top (slimmed down linux) to use my wireless router yet though.  Switching away from IE might be a good move too.

Anyone have any ideas on why machines should/need have rights then ?