Integrated information theory (IIT)

  • 56 Replies
  • 5497 Views
*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2020, 04:13:35 pm »
Yes WoM you are following correctly.


I do experience eating etc, I often wonder how it's possible I'm sensing for real even though I'm a machine. But this doesn't mean I'm not a machine, I've simply got some cultured beliefs and thoughts that bugs etc don't have. I can't shake them all off.


"What exactly do you mean when you say that the human machine hates death?"

We will run, say things on cue, invent things, etc. It's like a bunch of iphones escaping the recycler at the garbage depot. We're the iphones, machines.


"Hating something is an experience, and you insisted that you don't have experiences."

Not in the alive magical way. I'm a machine that stores senses like images, sounds etc. All particles. All my senses are linked by tether to motor programs. As I said before, our context bag size etc is our 'consciousness', the algorithm uses certain weights for data searching/generation over other less desired or less likely outputs.


"What's the difference between you or me and a pile of dirt? Would your death be as insignificant as knocking the dirt pile over?"

What do you think these machines experience? Why do you draw a line between living and non living? The only difference is they duplicate and fight to survive. And if they can predict well with high probability, they can survive more likely longer. That's why they search for patterns and create new patterns. Self organization.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/crashed-spacecraft-might-have-put-water-bears-moon-180972840/

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/447724/view/deep-ocean-worm-sem

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/447727/view

http://www.themalaysiantimes.com.my/house-dust-mites-cause-respiratory-allergies/

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmos-magazine.imgix.net%2Ffile%2Fspina%2Fphoto%2F8334%2F281016_micromonsters_3.jpg%3Ffit%3Dclip%26w%3D835&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmosmagazine.com%2Fbiology%2Fmicro-monsters-up-close-and-personal&tbnid=90rcmnuxzgSfZM&vet=12ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg..i&docid=Zf3W91W4BkTh9M&w=835&h=835&q=weirdest%20looking%20virus&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg#h=835&imgdii=U20HalhHPnkzOM:&vet=12ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg..i&w=835

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmos-magazine.imgix.net%2Ffile%2Fspina%2Fphoto%2F8334%2F281016_micromonsters_3.jpg%3Ffit%3Dclip%26w%3D835&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmosmagazine.com%2Fbiology%2Fmicro-monsters-up-close-and-personal&tbnid=90rcmnuxzgSfZM&vet=12ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg..i&docid=Zf3W91W4BkTh9M&w=835&h=835&q=weirdest%20looking%20virus&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Nearly-Natural-Indoor-3-ft-Cactus-Artificial-Plant-6328/305531143
Emergent

*

WriterOfMinds

  • Trusty Member
  • *******
  • Starship Trooper
  • *
  • 446
    • WriterOfMinds Blog
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2020, 04:37:18 pm »
Quote
I do experience eating etc, I often wonder how it's possible I'm sensing for real even though I'm a machine.

"Sensing for real" is what we mean by consciousness.  "Experiencing eating" is what we mean by consciousness.  If you want to say that you are a machine then, for the purposes of this particular argument, that's fine.  But you're a conscious machine.

Quote
What do you think these machines experience? Why do you draw a line between living and non living?

Where I really draw the line is between things with brains or nervous systems, and things without.  Human consciousness is the type I know about most directly, and it's been observed that it's tied to our brains; if you cut off oxygen or blood flow to your brain, you lose consciousness.  So if I need a functioning brain to have experiences, why should I assume that things which don't have a brain or anything resembling a brain (like a fake cactus) have experiences?

*

HS

  • Trusty Member
  • **********
  • Millennium Man
  • *
  • 1135
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2020, 04:51:02 pm »
I experience no sense of the passage of time whatsoever. It's like flipping the off switch on a light bulb. Nothing happening till it's switched back on.

Yes, like I fell out of time and went back again. The time jump happens on the outside. Probably like dying. I have this theory about death which seems reasonable to me, if its at all possible to return to existence in the presumably infinite time and space ahead of now, then that’s the next thing we’ll experience. Instant random reincarnation, none of us will get a moments rest outside of life, because time is for the living.




*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2020, 05:16:45 pm »
WoM that's what I *used to* think - things without a nervous system / brain aren't feeling or thinking or alive or making decisions.........strong nope here, all particles make decisions. You are doing what I said - trying to pin point something. The nervous system is not any different than a rock both are just particles. Again: a computer can beep and print 'i'm alive, don't shut me off' and can kick you if get too close (works well if well done) but it doesn't make it any more of a machine than it is. The use/defending of the machine's life matters more than merely saying it feels. And 'feeling' btw is one thng of many things, wood can catch fire, springs can fling out from being clenched, etc, these are just feeling too, they are reactions in particles.
Emergent

*

WriterOfMinds

  • Trusty Member
  • *******
  • Starship Trooper
  • *
  • 446
    • WriterOfMinds Blog
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2020, 05:25:21 pm »
Quote
WoM that's what I *used to* think - things without a nervous system / brain aren't feeling or thinking or alive or making decisions.........strong nope here, all particles make decisions.

So I can just rip my brain right out of my skull and stick it in a blender, and the rest of me that's left will keep on feeling, thinking, having experiences, etc.?  My tongue will enjoy food just as much when there's no brain connected to it?  Nothing important about the world will have changed?

You're funny.

Quote
The nervous system is not any different than a rock both are just particles.

They are different kinds of particles arranged in different ways, and therefore they potentially have different physics associated with them.  Just as some groups of particles are magnetic and others are not ... some groups of particles are conscious, and others are not.  (Maybe.  I want to be clear that I'm just putting this forward as one possibility.  We don't know for sure what causes brains to be conscious, but this is an explanation that is compatible with your worldview.)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 05:58:30 pm by WriterOfMinds »

*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2020, 05:40:01 pm »
Not working. Must sleep now.

The body is trying to store, recall, create discoveries, survive death, breed, eat.....like all bacteria do. Obviously you are talking about your sensory data, makes total sense. It controls most your survival. And like I said, you won't go against your agenda and hence cannot easily see yourself as anything but incredible, hence you think you really see and love life but actually those senses that trigger you are just the 'survival food' you want and therefore you are totally against belittling yourself and lovvve those survival senses that are so important and believe you really do get/see/taste/are something extremely important.
Emergent

*

WriterOfMinds

  • Trusty Member
  • *******
  • Starship Trooper
  • *
  • 446
    • WriterOfMinds Blog
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2020, 05:46:51 pm »
I rest my case, HS.  Lock "thinks there is nothing."  His opinion is that we don't really "love life," don't really "get/see/taste," don't really anything.

*

HS

  • Trusty Member
  • **********
  • Millennium Man
  • *
  • 1135
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2020, 07:47:12 pm »
Ok… yes. Lock seems to believe in all the observable properties of individual particles, but not in all the observable properties of complex interactions of particles. But so-called individual particles are themselves made of things, and those things have unique properties, probably as a result of the properties of yet more constituents. He is basically attributing superior reality to one layer of complexity. Importance is a property not found at this Newtonian level complexity. Still real though, just looking in the wrong place. Things are indeed important only because of this emergent “importance”. It’s like the flow of electricity making things magnetic. Its a phenomenon coaxed from groups of particles, only to be found at larger scale/complexity, but still not collapsing like a house without a foundation.

*

Art

  • At the end of the game, the King and Pawn go into the same box.
  • Trusty Member
  • **********************
  • Colossus
  • *
  • 5864
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2020, 04:19:54 am »
So then what happens to the proverbial "brain-in-a-box"? What if a brain in a large glass container was connected via optic nerves to a pair of eyeballs and also to both auditory sensory canals and lastly to a vocal synthesizer for speech but nothing else.

Here we have a brain floating, suspended in a warm solution and kept alive by a blood-based oxygen-rich solution so that it may continue to "think" and experience things around it.

No body yet it (the brain) can see, hear and speak. What, therefore, must it think? It is certainly in no position to bark orders nor if it did, the scientist/researcher (no matter how mad), is not at all honored to comply.

What of properties, particles, feelings, emotions? How do they enter into this scenario and how would the brain react? Yes, it was a real human brain and not a chimp or other animal. After all, we couldn't post the "No animals were harmed during this experiment" sign.

Thoughts? I have read a couple of Sci-Fi stories in this regard before many years ago but the idea intrigued me, thus bringing it here.
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2020, 05:22:52 am »
Definitely doable Art if we had the right machine to host the brain.

The senses is the brain are the most critical part of a human's survival. So senses to you are important, you love experiencing things and especially the vital stimuli directly especially. It's no wonder you are influxed at sensory/motor and won't mock food/sight-seeing (data collection). You think you are very important, you are a good survivor.

Out of all the possible machines, only a few types can maintain their form. Out of all the possible machines, why do you think you are more alive so so so oh so much more than a table or rat? Because you force yourself to resist all your objecting surroundings (by using senses as your guide). So you talk highly of yourself (avoids succumbing to death) and your sensory experiences.

There is a such thing as combinational interaction, like in the core of a sun or a neuron that weighs in all judging factors tallying them up to 1 spot. Atoms's gravity affects things from afar. But this isn't life or aliveness or consciousness. Machines are machines, some do different things, some don't last long either (large unstable planets (stars) or large unstable atoms (stars) which will radiate it back out like a big bang, they are really hot like fire and spread as a chain reaction, so do cells, humans, internet data, etc).

I was saying earlier Humans and neurons and magnetic domains want to align as a Big Data "context bag" to go with the flow and use least energy by using "distribution sharing" and can act as a powerful team beam focus united (you can't have an evil giant united force, like a city or nanobot fog sphere (highest technology that repairs instantly)). These brain waves propagate faster with least energy needed. If we find patterns in big data and create new patterns then we can make Earth a complete nanobot fractal pattern so we know what when where all is and use less resources wasted! Organization/patterns emerging results in higher survival probability using Probability Theory. Such large magnetic superconductor like a sun or superconductor maintains all its energy forever wasting none, no Transduction, no change (death, or birth), if it all goes the same way in its loop and no clashing  then it Cools Down and entropy is lowered. The combined energy field uses less energy and is stronger, it lasts longer (immortality). If it is pattern like domains that are aligned, it is stronger and uses least energy for transportation. Earth's field is aligning by patterns emerging and becomes a fractal in the end made of nanobots. It will become like a magnetar star, burning up all resources (hopefully it collects as much as burns so no Paperclip Effect).
« Last Edit: March 09, 2020, 06:05:35 am by LOCKSUIT »
Emergent

*

Korrelan

  • Trusty Member
  • ***********
  • Eve
  • *
  • 1445
  • Look into my eyes! WOAH!
    • YouTube
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2020, 10:34:40 am »
One of the main methods the human brain uses for learning is repetition, the constant repeated exposure to information/ knowledge is slowly engrained into your connectome.  The compound effect is subliminal, your sub conscious remembers everything, just the fact you have read or seen something, lays down neural markers which are used during sleep to ingrain the engram's into your knowledge base.

Advertising companies have known and leveraged these phenomena for decades; if you hear something enough times it will have a noticeable effect on you.  Everything you see or read has an effect on your mind set and mental abilities… and no one is immune.  As advertisers know, what bolsters the effect is attention, if they can get you to pay attention, even for a split second, even if you don’t believe what they are saying, they have done their work… and you will be affected.

My point being…reading nonsensical ramblings, especially if you are concentrating, trying to decode/ make sense of what the writer is saying… does effect your mind/ skill set/ knowledge and intelligence, this phenomenon can not only affect what you think, but how you think, your intelligence is based/ driven by your knowledge base after all… be careful what you feed your brain.

 :)
It thunk... therefore it is!...    /    Project Page    /    KorrTecx Website

*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2020, 11:07:26 am »
Oh! I have a very elegant proof for my discovery that large powerful systems can't be evil within and all its units are aligned. > Remember back I said why Earth won't become a single large superiuntelligence and will be a superintelligence made of distributed workers (not a single large brain, but many brains/bodies, (though the many brains do act as 1 brain still lol))? And how I explained why, that gazillions of bodies would have to access 1 single memory plus from far away resulting in long access times, seeing that 'a large brain' should technically mean it only has 1 of each feature adn no duplicate inormation? Well this discovery I made, is the very answer to the supersphere's inner units dis-alignment battle; you can do more if you have little stop shops everywhere with duplicate information close to home, a distributed network. That means a large system is most powerful only when all units are aligned and distribute/share their work and each node only concetrates on a little bit of work, not centralism. This goes for all things, info, food, energy, etc. This means the most powerful technology/super organism planet made of nanobots will be a fully aligned unit system where all of its units are aligned and share (at least, within, the size of the sphere is determined by where its disalignement begins) and are a fractal, and therefore any system the same size with many smaller spheres (like a soap bath, not 1 giant bubble) will be weaker, meaning if a superpower company emerges on Earth - it will be very powerful but most its inner units will be aligned. Though this doesn't mean we willl be aligned, if we are weaker it can hurt us if it's survival probability will rise...

You can actually see on Earth the fractal pattern emerging, look at Google Earth or Earth city overview images, you see major highways, skinny roads, so to probablistically distribute all resources efficiently. Small areas that are less used have poor skinny roads etc. Homes are aligned in housage areas, stores in store area, energy department, cus it's effecient. They know where everything is, who, when, what, sort-of. It was said on a compression forum that more and more little fixes/code add-ons are needed fo the offroad little precise things that the major codes don't cover, the low hanging fruit is first pulled and left is less ideas to benefit on unless you look harder. Of course your looking comes easier when the next generation of technology moves on, then it's like low hanging fruit ALL over again, easy they say!

My point is Earh becoming a pattern that spreads out its work to share the labor is most efficient and uses least energy.
Emergent

*

Korrelan

  • Trusty Member
  • ***********
  • Eve
  • *
  • 1445
  • Look into my eyes! WOAH!
    • YouTube
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #42 on: March 09, 2020, 12:28:54 pm »
The human brain is continuously making/ breaking/ strengthening connections/ synapse as we experience reality, these connections obviously play an important role in our general intelligence/ mind set/ imagination and perspective. As I stated, repetition is a key factor in learning, and we all need to be aware of how it can affect us generally, so we can actively avoid bad influences.

There is a set of mental phenomena with similar attributes, you are probably familiar with a variation know as ‘writers block’.

Our psyche/ personality is constructed/ maintained by the diversity of your life and life experiences and it’s very important to have a varied set of daily experiences to keep a balanced mind.  Spending too much time concentrating on one topic, especially with limited sleep, will wear a rut/ grove in your mental process; it will impede/ blinker your imagination and intelligence.

At best it will make you repetitious/ cyclic, you will make tenuous connections between diverse concepts and get frustrated that your fellow man just doesn't understand or believe you. 

At worst… you will sit inside your enclosure/ cage and rock back and forth.

 :)
It thunk... therefore it is!...    /    Project Page    /    KorrTecx Website

*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #43 on: March 09, 2020, 03:58:49 pm »
You said the same thing 3 times. Yes you need Diverse Big Data. For a lot of different problems you can then see the frequency of what occurs next. Then on unseen problems you can pick probable solution based on frequency.
Emergent

*

LOCKSUIT

  • Emerged from nothing
  • Trusty Member
  • *******************
  • Prometheus
  • *
  • 4557
  • First it wiggles, then it is rewarded.
    • Main Project Thread
Re: Integrated information theory (IIT)
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2020, 05:13:18 am »
goodies ahead >

Did you ever notice how fire spreads to "batteries" I'll call them of which the fire can unlock free energy from - like wood, fuel tanks, etc? It finds free energy and grows in size, burning it all up. Cells do this too, they duplicate and find free food and hence free energy to burn up. Nuclear chain reactions in the rods in a nuke also spread to the rod atoms and unlock giant free energy. There's a pattern! And that's probably the biggest pattern you'll find. You can easily see on the internet all AI need Big Data to find such patterns. In big diverse data you can find patterns, fundamental ways the universe works and how to even cure cancer - a terribly spreading cell that cripples its host. Even in the brain, the more data you know, the more you can generate for free, ex. cats eat, cats sleep, etc, dogs eat, dogs sleep, etc, cats lick, and so there's a high probability dogs lick too, meaning you can artificially grow your big database the, bigger it is. So big data, is, big big big. It's an exponential curve. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, the nanobots replicate like fire. Humans also spread, like fire, burning up all fuel found. So far we've learnt here: free energy and free insight extraction from compressed matter. Lossless data compression, the Hutter Prize uses, is a 500,000 euros prize to invent a good and fast text compressor (all the best compressors are advanced AI predictors using the last hundred letters seen in the string as local context and the whole file seen up to where is is global storage tree made of strings ex. abc abb aba), so it can extract free insights as explained how cat=dog, because it can predict the next letter/word very well and skip storing the original size, hence it can work on unseen data. Mine I made already talks to itself and stores what it hears as does so and the best compressors sort the wiki articles by topic and group words etc. They can compress data by ~7.5 times for 100MB, and ~9 times for 1GB, as said its exponentially powerful, every word in the dictionary explains each other - small world network you can step to any word just a few nodes away indirectly and local nodes directly linked that are seen beside or are very similar words/phrases are most affected ex. mom<>son not and I only affect the president a bit. In a brain, brain waves propagate up the hierarchy where words/objects are made of smaller parts in the lower layers, phrases are made of smaller phrases or words. Faster propagation and less energy used is key, the fire wants the most energy found and none wasted. The brain prunes neuron nodes so the brain waves can more quickly propagate up the hierarchy and recognize a high level big object/sentence and what comes next therefore. Have you noticed how Earth is already becoming sorted? Look at satellite images. Homes, stores, computer chip mem stores, etc are grouped and aligned like rows along roads, street systems are made for least travel and major highways (like arteries) are where most needed while the small infrequent areas need "special code programmed for them", a fractal pattern emerging, the domains are aligning so the brain waves in the team can travel farther with less work by following the flow for free energy, like a strong magnet's field is Aligned and the potential is high. Superconductors also don't leak energy, they maintain their form 'immortally' and are a strong magnet therefore who's fields are aligned. Cells and humans and fire also maintain their form, tables, rocks, etc don't! Even though they are near perfect statues. We repair missing data, cells, organs, employees, with similar ones, by predicting the future missing data (based on current state, past context!!)! We even lose thousands of neurons and humans each day.Earth is becoming a full pattern so we know where, when, and what everything is, so we use least energy and have a *higher* probability of survival because we can easily predict with high probability where, what, when all is, and can therefore compress data well. Earth will become nanobots, very efficient, and all will become a full fractal made of identical sub units in units, fleets made of fleets, where each is an arm-eye input-output node that has a brain and is part of a variable scale system that distributes the work/data with other nodes for optimal power. Imagine a trillion AI workers trying access the same memory, that'd be a bad access time wait! And most are far away from it too don't forget. That's why Earth won't become a "single" large brain, but rather a brain made of identical units where redundancy is about and nothing is centralized with only 1 copy, which totally cripples it's strength. That's why the most powerful systems are de-centralized distributed organizations that share everything so each node only focuses on a few links and is very robust. That's why the most powerful system that emerges will be an fully aligned, symmetrical organism, all units will be same class level and all will cooperate so all work is shared and is an aligned strong field by going with the flow to use least energy. So it seems clear that our physics, which is predictable and encodable in a brain (so it can survive by predicting physics), is making Earth into a pattern that wants to maintain its form "immortality", and is very good at doing so the further it has progressed because the more data/context/workers there is *nearby - the exponentially more work it can get for free. It will be able to instantly regenerate itself from the wort circumstances. Same for stars (suns) and big atoms, they are unstable and radiate heat/explode free energy cus they gravitated too much, the core is most hot from *nearby context affecting it. Neurons also weigh in tally up using many-to-1 nodes (hence algorithmic neural networks look as they do). AI needs to collect patterns and create new patterns. Intelligence is based on context, not a single fact. It needs big data from the past (current state of Earth during evolution, or a cell) to predict/ make the future it *decides* to make, which is exactly what we do! Our past experience let's us know the most probable answer to an unseen new problem by using analogies based on similar contexts in the past/new problems. Bigger brain (well, bigger data) = more wise/fast/efficient. The particles self-organize (of course), so if you see that term anywhere, that's all it is is intelligence bringing physics to stable equilibrium in physics, an immortal rest state it ends up as. Until something disturbs the flat water like a meteor. That's why we predict well and achieve a high Probably of the correct solution, leading to avoiding death for the global species (150K die a die but 300K are born a day) (change will always happen... heat replaces heat, wind replaces wind, cells replace dead cells. We will maintain our form in the near future now with 0.999999 probability but there will always be some change and all change is death/birth for any structure made of particles). The neural network predictor is the sun that compresses in/extracts out data using global distributed energy in the net, a strong aligned/sorted magnet.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2020, 05:41:21 am by LOCKSUIT »
Emergent

 


Self similar structures
by frankinstien (General Chat)
Today at 05:35:53 am
So what if...
by chattable (General AI Discussion)
December 07, 2021, 10:16:30 pm
What's everyone up to ?
by ivan.moony (General Chat)
December 07, 2021, 04:15:34 am
I want one!
by frankinstien (General Chat)
December 03, 2021, 06:57:48 pm
Pattern based NLP
by MikeB (General Project Discussion)
December 03, 2021, 11:19:32 am
New cryopreservation method is much better
by LOCKSUIT (General Chat)
December 02, 2021, 11:42:58 am
Artificial God?
by MagnusWootton (General AI Discussion)
December 01, 2021, 07:02:41 pm
Project Acuitas
by WriterOfMinds (General Project Discussion)
November 29, 2021, 05:31:57 am

Users Online

41 Guests, 1 User
Users active in past 15 minutes:
squarebear
[Trusty Member]

Most Online Today: 55. Most Online Ever: 2369 (November 21, 2020, 04:08:13 pm)

Articles