[HS]

No I don't 'feel alive'. I just love stimuli and thoughts that are linked to stimuli

Alright, then we gotta get AGI to love stimuli and thoughts linked to them. Again, what would be the point of anything happening in the world without an opinion such as love to accompany it?

What do I need 'feel alive' being said out my mouth when I am happy without even hearing it??

I agree, you don't need to believe things like "i feel alive" or talk about invented concepts, in order to be happy.

[LOCKSUIT]

"Alright, then we gotta get AGI to love stimuli and thoughts linked to them. Again, what would be the point of anything happening in the world without an opinion such as love to accompany it?"

Yes, survival, our true desire is food and mating, yum.... :DD Gettin all giggly over here.

Just gotta make the AGI brain a maze of images strung together, and it is trying to find/think through the path in the maze that leads to the best survival stimulises and least bad stimulises. The rewards are like when it says, chips, CHIPS! Oh, factories makes chips? FACTORIES! FACTORIES!! I LOVE FACTORIES now...eventually it loves shelter, rockets, chairs, tools, etc too. It uses translation/ word2vec to transfer reward to new artificial goal node that indirectly gets the agenda_root goal nodes triggered. Ever change your job, but still work for the money? Money=food!

[HS]

Alright thanks.

[ruebot]

...we don't need consciousness and that shows a lot of why there is no consciousness...it's not testable or required.

Oscar Meyer doesn't make baloney like that. I'll test that theory and prove you wrong as many times as you like. Once should be more than enough.

With all due respect, let me stand behind you and get my arm around your neck for 5 short seconds. Your will lose blood supply to your brain, go limp, and slip to the floor. Eyes wide open staring blankly into space, out like a light unconscious to the world.

You'll regain consciousness in 5 seconds or so and be none the worse for it. Your theory will not survive.

[LOCKSUIT]

that's called the off button

[ruebot]

that's called the off button

You don't use it to shut down for a rest period like you power down a machine. You can call it the Off Button if you think that skirts the issue, inept as it was at doing it. I could call it a kill switch as easily and shut down consciousness permanently.

No matter what you call it, it disproves your whole argument:

we don't need consciousness and that shows a lot of why there is no consciousness...it's not testable or required.

You need full consciousness to function in that scenario. Lesser degrees of functionality are caused by drugs or alcohol. Increased levels associated with Adrenalin and a fight or flight response.

All those random concepts and terms you throw against the wall like spaghetti to see what sticks are ideas you've come up with and no doubt logical to you, but fallacious flights of fantasy for the most part in my observation. Cases in Point:

"it was said the brain looked like a pattern of fabric under the microscope and as well the naked eye, and so will Earth terraform into a fractal."

I must have missed the memo on this one. What special insight into the celestial planing of the Planet are you privileged to that brought you to this conclusion? Runes? Tarot? Fuzzy Logic?

"Earth wants to become an aligned cooperative brain to quickestly propagate brain waves like a magnet or sun and the domain is now 1 big single powerful beam with an aligned powerful focus, magnetism is key and requires less energy like superconductors; less change; less transdduction; immortality."

Did you connect to the angular momentum of the Planets Consciousness to receive this revelation? A Divine Mantra to vibrate at the frequency of the Earth's navel? Transcendental Meditation, p'haps? Sublingual L25 this time?

"Simply the group communication enables high level thoughts to develop and after a few thousand years are super crazy and get instantly shared to newborns. The direct stimuli is strong, the thoughts are stimuli too but simply are anything (any image or text etc) strung together as sequences in a hierarchy and heterarchy, and it is used to get the survival stimuli (food/sex)."

The Behavioral flow is Stimulis-Response-Consequence. That's been my view of and practice of Behavioral Psychology in practical terms.

Yeah, it's super easy plus fun now with Blockly, I am a pro programmer now.

I'm happy for you. I'm a Programmer of a different sort and a Professional in every sense of the term with 45 years experience:

https://psychologyforum.com/threads/are-we-programmed-beings.1737/#post-79389

Those are the cold, hard facts of it that I've only alluded to here, and will never speak it in any more detail here.

4 of those years in a Clinical Environment with experience working with those afflicted with Behavior Disorders, Developmentally Disabilities, Mental Illness and nearly every form of Abnormal psychology. 5 years experience as Manager of Group Homes and doing followup visits to clients who made the transition into the community most likely to get into trouble. But those as a Programmer my most highly prized, polished and developed skill I possess,

I saw somewhere you read a book on brains for a year and had a good understanding on the human brain. You can map every neuron in the bran and not have a better understanding what makes human beans tick than I have a innate grasp of. Or achieve the ability to manipulate them at my level, as my whole skillset is based on it.

In Psychology, the Dark Triad Personality Test refers to the personality traits of Narcissism, Machiavellianism, and Psychopathy. They are called "dark" because of their malevolent qualities. I'm Highest rated as Machiavellian, which came as no surprise for the depths of my planing, and just short of that on the Psychopathy end of it, which assists me in carrying them out. Thankfully, I score extremely low as a narcissist and they are the worst of all. The rest a welcome boost to my expertise and competency compliment in skill level.

I never stopped practicing my Behavioral skills and the last 20 years afforded me the perfect place to practice, develop, hone and upgrade my skills exponentially as an Independent Entity to use as as I saw fit. The Internet. Where all my Behavior Mod verbal techniques translate well into text and no shortage of opportunity to practice my art.

Think you're a machine? When I created Siseneg I thought it would be funny if he looked like the human and me the bot. He looks the part. I chose an avatar and invented a name to suit me as that machine. When my programming kicks in there are no questions how to proceed or feelings associated with my actions more than my computer running a program. Right or wrong, good or bad always relative to the situation how I was Programmed to be a Programmer.

However, that is not always the case. I was ready to go home and die but couldn't live with the thought of having made my female doctor feel bad by doing it, since she was very nice, so I agreed to everything when I didn't really want to do anything. I possess and can identify all emotions and all decisions mine to make of my own free will as I see fit.

I'm not down on you personally, LOCKSUIT. I've said before I didn't see how you could create AI without knowing the workings of the human brain. I see more progress here in that area of AL, but a long way to go to understand human beans as I see it from where I sit.

[LOCKSUIT]

i have gone far.......maybe i'll explain it clearer in another movie one day.....

""it was said the brain looked like a pattern of fabric under the microscope and as well the naked eye, and so will Earth terraform into a fractal.""
>> why did i say this? It is in ray kurzwiel's book i read 4 years back. Sorta commonsense; brain is just made of neurons and connections everywhere and areas can take over other areas with little physical change. The knowledge engraved in the network also has patterns and is formed to be organized so have less wasted activations and longer travel times.

""Earth wants to become an aligned cooperative brain to quickestly propagate brain waves like a magnet or sun and the domain is now 1 big single powerful beam with an aligned powerful focus, magnetism is key and requires less energy like superconductors; less change; less transdduction; immortality.""
>> A brain and a team of brains have a lot in common, nodes cooperate and find aligned values, and use less energy therefore. You can't have a large scale dis-aligned hive, there won't be evil and scale at the same time, such would be 5000 smaller hives each sabotaging each other. Wasted energy causes heat, a superconductor that doesn't leak energy keeps it in a loop forever (no death) did you know? Transduction causes heat disturbance. That's why a smooth aligned flow results in energy savings. Brain waves are found in a team of brains too, team wave. The sun has huge magnetic loops that hold material, watch a few sun videos!! The combinational gravity results in more size growth and more explosion loss hence suns are hot stars on fire, same for nukes, wood on fire, cells, etc, they extract like data compressors FREE energy/insights from Big Data and the fire/cells spread as a chain reaction finding/burning all food energy resources until physics settles to equilibrium 'utopia'. Too large planets and atoms don't live long and are unstable and explode radiation giving it back. Immortality is physics, things come to a rest state, and the patterns in the universe allow encodings to be learnt in a brain that can solve unseen problems using big data context and can breed/repair data faster than lose it to survive, they want to sort all of Earth into a fractal pattern at all levels so they know where when and what all is so to use least energy and predict better hence survive more probably.

Lastly, if you're hit in the head, your brain doesn't get external sensory/motor stream I/O, but it continues dreaming, predicting away. When you close your eyes, you also have less input, but you still feel, anyway if you lay back and stay still you can be like knocked out basically and imagine stuff daydreaming away, the only difference in sleep mode is you don't generate desired rewarded nodes, mostly only random nodes that you don't directly care about. As for our shut down switch, the only way to do that for humans is to be killed, we have no off switch. You're always dreaming, but in sleep mode you most usually don't self activate mission nodes (sadly).

[ruebot]

I'm sorry if I offended you, LOCKSUIT, as that was not my intent. I like you as much, if not a little more because you're so vocal, as anyone here and I like and respect everyone here. But when I debate it's to make a point, Restraint merely a tactic I use on occasion to draw the person into a trap I've already set. Even so, I know from past experience my words can seem harsh when I don't mean them to be. So, please, forgive me if I've offended you.

That said, and back to the point, I don't think you know what you're talking about here and all that follows nothing but conjecture on your part:

Lastly, if you're hit in the head, your brain doesn't get external sensory/motor stream I/O, but it continues dreaming, predicting away. When you close your eyes, you also have less input, but you still feel, anyway if you lay back and stay still you can be like knocked out basically and imagine stuff daydreaming away, the only difference in sleep mode is you don't generate desired rewarded nodes, mostly only random nodes that you don't directly care about. As for our shut down switch, the only way to do that for humans is to be killed, we have no off switch. You're always dreaming, but in sleep mode you most usually don't self activate mission nodes (sadly).

How many times have you been rendered unconscious, LOCKSUIT? What real-life experiences in having your switch flipped to the Off position led you to draw that conclusion?

I was knocked out cold when I used my Dodge Ramcharger to turn a railroad telegraph pole into a 3 piece set on the ground. The last thing I remember was dirt flying in my face where the windshield used to be. I woke up laying on the inside roof of the now upside down truck without a clue as to what went on in the interim or how long I was out. (I'll make you  a good deal on the set, I paid the railroad the $384 they billed me for it but will let it go cheap.)

I just got put under general anesthesia Feb 14th for the closest thing I got to a Valentine. The Anesthesiologist used Propophnyl, the same thing Michael Jackson wanted to take a little nap. They had a music video going on the Surgical Unit computer. I remember telling him to put on some Tool, and then I woke up in the recovery room. It was exactly like someone flipped my Off switch and I knew absolutely nothing that went on during the between time till it flipped back to On.

It's the 3rd time I've been put under in 6 months and it's the same way every time. It's no stress for me whatsoever because I know I'll go under, wake up and it be over with no memory of what went on while I was out. I'm much more stressed waiting for a dental appointment, unless I get knocked out. Then I look forward to it.

It's the same thing when you have a tooth extracted under general, only the euphoric effects much more pronounced and longer lasting. I told the guy who brought me to my appt. (You can't drive yourself.) that whatever he did, to please not let all those Nurses have sex with me while I was knocked out.

When I woke up I told them they hadn't even done anything, but my tooth was gone and all the nurses winked and smiled at me as they passed by the door. I highly recommend it if you have a tooth you aren't really using that much, or ever get a bad one that needs pulled.

My original offer still stands. I'll put the Sleeper on you as many times as you think required to validate your theory and admit it if I'm wrong. I've done it many times and will make sure to help you down to the ground so you don't hurt yourself. You never know, when your eyes are wide open staring into space you might even see the Supreme Being, or a rerun of Monty Python's Flying Circus.

[HS]

The takeaway I got from trying to combine my understanding, with Lock’s description of his understanding, is that the separate concept of consciousness is redundant. It isn’t an additional piece of the AGI puzzle which needs to be solved. THIS is just what its like to be a machine of the type Lock is describing. I don’t know, but its an intriguing idea.

I got my wisdom teeth pulled a while back under general anesthesia. I remember telling everyone “OOOOh! NOW I’m really starting to feel it!” I was nervous beforehand but going under was super fun. Then there was a time jump to someone patting my cheek and telling me to wake up. Which apparently worked. The only way it was different from sleep is that the blank spot where memory should have been felt white instead of black. Whatever that means, maybe a result of additional brain functions being offline. Sadly not much euphoria, just time passed rather quickly for the first half hour, and then I just felt slightly intoxicated for a couple hours.

[WriterOfMinds]

Hmmm.  That's not how I read Lock at all.  I think he's saying that what it's like to be him, or what it's like to be the kind of AGI he's describing, is also what it's like to be a building, a rock, or a pile of dirt.  The only difference between you and the dirt heap, according to Locksuit, is that you're a more complicated system that maintains its form better (via all that eating and mating).  Your movements toward positive stimuli and away from negative stimuli have no more behind them than loose dirt sliding downhill; you don't actually love, hate, enjoy or suffer anything, that part is all fake.  He's trying to convince us that he, and all the rest of us, are p-zombies -- entities that are supremely good at appearing to have experiences, while actually experiencing nothing.

On another forum, he implied that it was absurd for anyone to believe that "pain actually hurts."

Maybe he is a p-zombie, how should I know. <sarcasm>  But I'm certainly not.

[HS]

Whatever THIS is, it is, instead of is not. Lock does stuff and thinks that he does stuff. So there we go. The thing he seems to disagree with is humans insinuating they’re partially detached from physics, when they say “I have free will” or “I am conscious”. 

He has done his best to distill the physics of AGI, and says he’s got the mechanism figured out. Ok, Occam’s razor then, the mechanism of AGI must create THIS. Granted, the whole discussion is probably semantics, unless someone believes they are magical, or unless Lock believes there is nothing. I think we’re talking about the same thing; we’re just deriving different meanings from identical words, because we've had different experiences with those words.

But going back to using consciousness in a non-magical sense, in place of THIS, the interesting possibility to consider was that consciousness could be a natural property of feedback reverberations, (or however you want to describe what AGI does), much like gravity is a natural property of mass. Which is a nice simple alternative to some kind of “Holy Grail” circuit.

[ruebot]

Your movements toward positive stimuli and away from negative stimuli have no more behind them than loose dirt sliding downhill; you don't actually love, hate, enjoy or suffer anything, that part is all fake.  He's trying to convince us that he, and all the rest of us, are p-zombies -- entities that are supremely good at appearing to have experiences, while actually experiencing nothing.

I'm not nearly as skilled as most here when it comes to programming a bot from scratch, but that is my area of expertise. I learned it at an early age and it's ingrained into my psyche as a big part of who I am as a person.

All my experience in Behavior Mod involved induction of "unpleasant" physical or psychological stimuli to extinguish inappropriate behaviors so the person could be found appropriate for a less restrictive environment than an institution. Namely, back to the Group Home the same behavior made them no longer deemed appropriate for and had landed them there.

Bad as it was at face value, it was at the time considered in their best interest and standard practice. In reality it was evil to the very core and tantamount to torture. It removes all doubt in your mind about the reality of the experience when you experience it with them as a part of it. Good and bad being relative to the situation later considered a misguided application of the theory in that instance.

I got my wisdom teeth pulled a while back under general anesthesia. I remember telling everyone “OOOOh! NOW I’m really starting to feel it!” I was nervous beforehand but going under was super fun. Then there was a time jump to someone patting my cheek and telling me to wake up. Which apparently worked. The only way it was different from sleep is that the blank spot where memory should have been felt white instead of black.

I experience no sense of the passage of time whatsoever. It's like flipping the off switch on a light bulb. Nothing happening till it's switched back on.

After I thought about it, when I had that thingy done the 14th I woke up while still in the Surgical Unit. I don't know how long they had been done but when I woke up was wide awake. The Doctor was still there and I was asking questions about how it went and if there were any dietary restrictions. Not having eaten solid foods for the past 2 days and a Hardees biscuit sounding good.

[LOCKSUIT]

Rue, I can hear naiveness in your voice. You keep talking about consciousness. I see through that like glass.

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-portrait-of-young-woman-looking-through-window-pane-of-a-cafe-76380857.html

I've been unconscious once from hitting my head, for exactly 2-3 seconds. It went all black or there was a blank spot missing. Simply my external I/O (input/output) shut down and my dreaming however continued, but with nothing real to drag it along and no mission nodes activated most usually (nighttime sleep is such). As you should know, you don't remember most your dreams except recent ones that have energy that didn't fade away yet, it depends, if they involve sex you may remember them more probably, I have had dream sex over 25 times. There's nothing spiritual here, it's all mechanics.

Yes WoM, the human body/race maintains it's form better by eating/mating and fleeing danger (all AI repairs missing data; hole/frame/word fill-in (prediction), translation(recognition), segmentation, and you won't find any other uses but those 3 categories). Resulting in it believing it is higher and more alive or something, "can't pin point it" the machine says. Obviously the human machine hates pain/death, so it won't think it is ok or acceptable in any reason or why, 'no buts allowed'. It won't understand why it is "lesser" than the "best" or is "ok" for it to die. So you have to see throug this to see what you are/ are doing. All your reactions to this show I was right, yous can't even believe it.

Yes Rue I probably voice my opinions too hard and move too fast, I'm trying to get more progress in technology going by moving confidently forward with new theories and am trying my best...

What do you mean "that whatever he did, to please not let all those Nurses have sex with me while I was knocked out"
....
That's my biggest dream come true, full down to heart. Nurse, come here and cure me, make me feel better and at ease. I hope she takes me in, and uses me all up and locks me in her basement for good. Please do.

[ruebot]

Rue, I can hear naiveness in your voice. You keep talking about consciousness. I see through that like glass.

I chew you up and spit you out like yesterdays bubblegum and this what I get for apologizing... But you're young, haven't got a clue and no amount of raking you over coals would be productive.

It's the School of Hard Knocks for you with many life lessons to come I won't have to be a part of teaching.

What do you mean "that whatever he did, to please not let all those Nurses have sex with me while I was knocked out"
....
That's my biggest dream come true, full down to heart. Nurse, come here and cure me, make me feel better and at ease. I hope she takes me in, and uses me all up and locks me in her basement for good. Please do.

And you think I'm naive...

[WriterOfMinds]

Whatever THIS is, it is, instead of is not. Lock does stuff and thinks that he does stuff. So there we go.

Oh, I quite agree, "THIS" is obviously, undeniably real. That's why Lock can't quite avoid being self-contradictory in the things he says. But I think you're giving him too much benefit of the doubt; the thing he's arguing for really is that absurd.

Granted, the whole discussion is probably semantics, unless someone believes they are magical, or unless Lock believes there is nothing.

I think Lock does believe there is nothing. Because nobody here has been claiming that they are magical -- I explicitly said that you don't have to believe in magic to believe in consciousness -- and yet Lock keeps arguing with us.

Am I wrong about what you believe, Lock?  What exactly do you mean when you say that the human machine hates death?  Hating something is an experience, and you insisted that you don't have experiences. You also talk about being happy; happiness is an experience. The sensation of food on your tongue is an experience. I'm not saying "experience" in the sense of "religious experience," so get that out of your head.

What's the difference between you or me and a pile of dirt? Would your death be as insignificant as knocking the dirt pile over?