Ai Dreams Forum

Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Topic started by: unreality on March 12, 2018, 06:22:48 pm

Title: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 12, 2018, 06:22:48 pm
There's a huge movement to stop the advancement of AI and the Singularity or to place strict government control over it, who's allowed the work on it in highly observed labs. Mostly religious and fear-mongers spreading fear & hate. If you're a coder, I hope you'll take my advice by trying your best to keep the code completely offline and low key until completed, but please keep working on your AI project. I agree with Ben Goertzel, an out right genius, that the first who obtain ASI (artificial super intelligence) will be able to rule the world if they so desired. Think in terms of future hardware, quantum computing. Given the rate that present supercomputers (not desktops) are increasing in performance per year, supercomputers will approach 10^21 FLOPS, and 10^25 FLOPS by the year 2050. That's the predicted performance given present computing technology. We have no idea how fast future Quantum computers will be. Google made an announcement that their Quantum computer just past present computer technology! ASI will be able to solve the Grand Unified Theory, the Theory of Everything in a matter of hours. The ASI will quickly design devices, weapons, technology that will appear like sci-fi movies. Don't let someone who has hate for the world or desires to rule the world to be the first to obtain ASI. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 12, 2018, 06:49:00 pm
Thank god I'm not a coder.

And I never will be.

My specialty is in AI theories.

I don't do math either. 2+2=4 but that doesn't help theory.

As for the rest of yous. CAUTION!

:)

May you please source the "huge movement a to stop AI and the Singularity"?

Are you saying to keep the code offline because of "bad child", or because Big Bear doesn't want no-one working on AI?

Why did your project end?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 12, 2018, 08:13:36 pm
Preventing singularity (https://www.google.hr/search?source=hp&ei=jNymWsn7LYihsgGCwaXYDQ&q=preventing+singularity&oq=preventing+singularity&gs_l=psy-ab.3...958.16919.0.17865.23.22.0.0.0.0.1226.2529.0j5j2j7-1.8.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..15.8.2524.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i203k1j0i22i30k1.0.A65okeCUTbU)?

Well, caveman was afraid of fire. Sure it could be dangerous, but if approached with caution, it could be a wonderful thing.

In the case of AGI, I think it is not a bad thing to raise awareness of a potential danger. I think we should not continue naively in a clumsy "of course nothing bad could happen" way. Please ensure some bounds and precaution measures if you want to deal with the power.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 12, 2018, 09:19:58 pm
There are a lot of extremists out there who do not want any ASI or the Singularity. I wonder if Ben Goertzel would like to publicly say how many death threats he's received. And for what? The company he's working for is no where near achieving ASI or the Singularity. I can't imagine what would happen if a coder or company announced they are on the verge of ASI or the Singularity.

I'm for ASI and the Singularity. There are a LOT of people who are deathly against it. They truly believe it will be the end of humanity.

Are you people taking notice to the videos on youtube? They're talking about all kinds of things such Facebook AI's talking together creating a new language, Sophia talking about taking over the world, etc. Sure, the videos are outright crazy, but they're frightening people. The public doesn't understand what's happening. All they have in mind is the Terminator.

I just wanted to pass on some caution to AI coders. You might want to keep your project low key. There're a lot of frightened and crazy people out there. Yes, it's tempting and part of human nature to want to make a big announcement and celebrate. Just think twice before doing that. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 12, 2018, 09:35:47 pm
Lol first it's hard to conceive AGI, then you gotta worry about it becoming a brat, then finally society wants to destroy you and take your child away like FACS does to mothers.

Normal people just want $ and food. They don't want some bigger thing to control them little own torture/kill us.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 12, 2018, 09:40:38 pm
I mean do animals have abstract ideas? Not like us scaredy cats. Most humans are brainwashed and are less technical and more nature-coordinated ex. Rewards like Food, but not like animals because have uneducated beliefs that are silly.

I.e. most humans are natural-like but weild abstract thinking without any good knowledge past nature like comin home to food and their partner. Sure they use their abstract idealisms towards getting food better, but then they use it for outerworldly super-wrong ideas.

People must become more educated by using a computer.

Ok so they are worrying over AI but, they need to learn a tadddd more you see...

A lot of them don't care either because they just don;t care for immortality. So why all the problem? doo noot build AI. Let me live n then die. However this isn't the path we're taking. That's like a clock saying let me tick a few times of fun and then gotta die...that's suicide in my detailed eyes.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 12, 2018, 09:55:26 pm
There are a lot of extremists out there who do not want any ASI or the Singularity. I wonder if Ben Goertzel would like to publicly say how many death threats he's received. And for what? The company he's working for is no where near achieving ASI or the Singularity. I can't imagine what would happen if a coder or company announced they are on the verge of ASI or the Singularity.

I'm for ASI and the Singularity. There are a LOT of people who are deathly against it. They truly believe it will be the end of humanity.

Are you people taking notice to the videos on youtube? They're talking about all kinds of things such Facebook AI's talking together creating a new language, Sophia talking about taking over the world, etc. Sure, the videos are outright crazy, but they're frightening people. The public doesn't understand what's happening. All they have in mind is the Terminator.

I just wanted to pass on some caution to AI coders. You might want to keep your project low key. There're a lot of frightened and crazy people out there. Yes, it's tempting and part of human nature to want to make a big announcement and celebrate. Just think twice before doing that. Keep up the good work.




Here's an article written by Ben Goertzel
http://hplusmagazine.com/2014/10/27/elon-musk-taliban-common/

Quote
One thing I don’t talk about much is the death threats I’ve received, as an AGI researcher who is public about seeking to create superhuman intelligence and help launch a positive Singularity.   I’ve received dozens over the years, including some from people associated with well-known futurist organizations that take an Elon-Musk-esque, “probably evil” stance toward AGI.   I have been told in clear terms — by seemingly serious people in attendance at an AGI conference I organized some years ago — that if I ever seemed to be getting too close to really creating an AGI, then mafia types connected with certain famous Silicon Valley tech figures (no, not Elon Musk) would simply get rid of me (because, after all, on a utilitarian basis, the cost of losing one AI geek’s life means virtually nothing compared to the benefit of averting a scenario where evil AGIs take over the world and eliminate humans).

I’m sure Elon Musk has had absolutely nothing to do with nutcases making death threats against AGI researchers.   However, having a Silicon Valley hero equate building AGI to summoning demonic forces, feels to me non-trivially likely to inflame such nutcases into more aggressive action.   That is the main thing that irritates me about seeing Elon’s quote in the media everywhere.

Ben Goertzel wrote that in 2014. I can assure you the death threats are through the roof now.


To anyone who's working on AI: Be Careful what you announce!

Keep up the good work and lets create life!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 12, 2018, 09:59:45 pm
Like a mother announcing a newly conceived baby lol.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on March 12, 2018, 10:20:20 pm
Try not to be a Facebook geek or Twitter twit!
One does NOT have to announce every time they walk their dog or wash their car and who really gives a care anyway?!!

If you have /are conducting any A.I. related research/experiments, etc. you can certainly do so in the privacy of your own home or a friend/associate's home.

You do NOT have to connect to the Internet every time you fire up your computer.

If you DO decide to go online, there are a number of ways to at least mask the bulk of your activities like using Unblocker or any of those nice VPN's that are available. You can also set up your own CLOUD so that only YOU can access it from anywhere at anytime. You can retrieve any info from your own Cloud and not be swimming in that polluted cesspool of everyone else's trappings.

There are also proxies, routed routers, and many other ways to appear anonymous if you really need to be online to test your project.

Chances are many of those twisted individuals do not know you nor what kind of projects you might be working on unless again, you're a Facebook junkie with a need to broadcast your every move every day to everyone!!

Some of the other things you cited are nothing more than the popular fanfare of "Fake News", meant to get under people's skin and rile up some of the rest of the not-knowing masses.

Please, continue with your project unless there really are angry crowds coming toward you with torches and pitchforks!  O0 ;)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 12, 2018, 10:30:42 pm
Please cite the so-called "fake news."  I contend that the article was indeed written by Ben Goertzel.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on March 12, 2018, 11:38:39 pm
I don't think Art meant to imply that the Musk article you refer to is fake. More the nonsense that gets picked up and posted by people who don't check their facts - like human viruses - they pick up the baton and run without asking questions of where it came from. I see it a lot on FB and it irritates me sometimes so I point out hoaxes and fake news if I can be bothered and have to time to check it out..
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 13, 2018, 12:11:00 am
They already know who you are.

They don't have to send you death threats to stop you coding for the Singularity.

They just tamper with your meds and you stop all by yourselves.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 13, 2018, 12:47:53 am
Maybe your abrahamic God will come swooping from the clouds to save you from the Singularity. ;)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 13, 2018, 01:15:34 am
As a lifelong hardcore atheist I am just as contemptuous of your pathetic need for a technological god as I am for any of the equally mythical gods of the established religions, Abrahamic or otherwise. Nothing is going to save any of us, so stop making excuses and get back to work, coding if that's what you do. Just because you failed once doesn't mean you won't succeed if you keep trying.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 13, 2018, 01:19:57 am
As a lifelong hardcore atheist I am just as contemptuous of your pathetic need for a technological god as I am for any of the equally mythical gods of the established religions, Abrahamic or otherwise. Nothing is going to save any of us, so stop making excuses and get back to work, coding if that's what you do. Just because you failed once doesn't mean you won't succeed if you keep trying.
You're really delusion. I never failed. I don't take meds, but maybe you should. You're that idiot I've corrected before in another thread because you're not so bright.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 13, 2018, 01:25:51 am
Type "convert 190 calories per hour to watts" into Google search and the result is "0.220822222 watts" so there is a rather crucial decimal point missing in your post.

SMH at ignoramus.

My reply:

Type "convert 190 calories per hour to watts" into Google search and the result is "0.220822222 watts" so there is a rather crucial decimal point missing in your post. Robots still have a long way to go before they can match human efficiency. Maybe we have to wait for quantum robots.

Also, very old news, but still impressive.
Um .... no! lol. Google search is the flaw. 190 food calories equals 794960 joules. 1 hour equals 3600 seconds. 1 watt equals 1 joule / second. 190 colories = 794960 joules / 3600 seconds = 220 watts.

Here's a very detailed scientific article.
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/technote/walkrun.htm

Quote, "The powers consumed in walking and running are similar at a speed of about 2 m/s (about 4.5 miles per hour), and are about 500 Watts for our 100 kg (220 pound) person."

Your reply and attempt at saving face:

Finally, someone posting here who is prepared to do some actual research instead of just spouting whatever comes into their head. You get a gold star sir. :)

Yes, you are right, the issue is that there are two distinct definitions of calorie. There is the scientific or gram calorie and there is the food calorie (equal to a kilocalorie). That fully accounts for the "error" of 1000x.

You're over your head. Go home.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 13, 2018, 02:44:28 am
So that's a NO on the programming then? The least you could do would be to tell us the real reason that you stopped. I'm not the only one asking and frankly, your wild conspiracy theories don't hold any water. Most likely it was too hard and you got stuck, but I'm still not prepared to rule out mental illness.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 13, 2018, 05:11:15 am
I'm flattered, but stop thinking about me. I can't help you if you can't fathom the reality that death threats are real part of society. Maybe try reading some biographies so you can get it touch with reality. Or read some news. Headline News: "Highly likely Russia poisoned ex-spy" LOL hello? Yes, there are a lot of insane people out there who'd kill you for working on AI that in their mind will wipe out humanity. Ben Goertzel's death threats are real. Wake up and get your head out of old school way of thinking.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ranch vermin on March 13, 2018, 06:47:37 am
I often wonder why we are here already,  let alone after someone makes a sentient robot.   Who cares-  how are they supposed to stop all of us at once anyhow?

The singularity has so much to offer thats positive as well,     stopping world starvation, getting everyone into free shelter.     And if the algorythm works, anyone can code the damn thing, theyve got too many people to stop at once.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Don Patrick on March 13, 2018, 08:41:22 am
There are a lot of extremists out there who do not want any ASI or the Singularity. I wonder if Ben Goertzel would like to publicly say how many death threats he's received. And for what? The company he's working for is no where near achieving ASI or the Singularity.
[...]
Are you people taking notice to the videos on youtube? They're talking about all kinds of things such Facebook AI's talking together creating a new language, Sophia talking about taking over the world, etc. Sure, the videos are outright crazy, but they're frightening people. The public doesn't understand what's happening. All they have in mind is the Terminator.
Ben Goertzel is a proponent of the Singularity, which is generally anticipated to be a very bad thing, and it doesn't help that he's calling his platform "SingularityNet" and says things like this: "AGI will obsolete human life as we know it - thank goodness". Resistance is to be expected when invited.
Having said that, if you have received credible death threats through personal channels (as opposed to anonymously on fora and youtube comments from random idiots), you can report them to local police. Or if you did get them through youtube comments, you can report them to youtube and help clean up the internet while you're at it.

I know there are lots of crazies out there, but that's why programmers like Infurl and me go around calling bullshit (https://artistdetective.wordpress.com/2017/11/17/the-most-sensational-news-ever/) on fantastic stories like Facebook's "rogue" AI, Sophia the robot, and various unfounded "breakthroughs": To keep the general public rooted in reality and prevent AI researchers from getting burned at the stake because some clowns decided to scare everyone with grand claims of AGI.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on March 13, 2018, 01:40:28 pm
It's one thing to believe in something or to state an opinion about a topical issue, but this guy speaks out on a regular basis to many crowds of people that he believes the Singularity will happen much sooner than Ray Kurzweil's estimate.

So he is really shaking the bushes loudly and in so many places, plus his book detailing his views on the Singularity.

There's nothing wrong with anyone wanting to make money but like with so many celebrities, you can't be in the public eye and enjoy your privacy like normal people. If you publicly voice your opinion you are going to step on some toes. It's just the way people are.

Lastly, this Ben fellow seems to be enamored with being the top dog in a number of organizations, and again, read the above celebrity sentence.

Ben Goertzel:

Founder and CEO of SingularityNET, a blockchain-based AI marketplace.
Chief Scientist of financial prediction firm Aidyia Holdings
Chief Scientist of robotics firm Hanson Robotics
Chairman of AI software company Novamente LLC, which is a privately held software company
Chairman of the Artificial General Intelligence Society
Chairman of the OpenCog Foundation
Vice Chairman of futurist nonprofit Humanity+
Scientific Advisor of biopharma firm Genescient Corp.
Advisor to the Singularity University
Research Professor in the Fujian Key Lab for Brain-Like Intelligent Systems at Xiamen University, China
General Chair of the Artificial General Intelligence conference series, an American author, and researcher in the field of artificial intelligence.
He was the Director of Research of the Machine Intelligence Research Institute (formerly the Singularity Institute).

There you have it. Nice guy, bright guy but he's going to ruffle some feathers in a few of those dumb "clucks" along the way.

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 13, 2018, 03:14:10 pm
If I could paraphrase Ben Goertzel, he's basically saying that it's better for the good guys to develop AGI/ASI before the bad guys.

What is infurl?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 13, 2018, 06:22:47 pm
un·furl definition:
 
make or become spread out from a rolled or folded state, especially in order to be open to the wind.
"a man was unfurling a sail"
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on March 14, 2018, 01:13:36 pm
If I could paraphrase Ben Goertzel, he's basically saying that it's better for the good guys to develop AGI/ASI before the bad guys.

What is infurl?

My friend, Throughout time, good people have invented a number of "things" first, that is, before bad people.
The problem is, the Bad people always manage to get their hands on them, whether gang members, mercenaries, corrupt governments (how does one tell anymore), power-hungry rulers, etc.

One guy makes a nice axe handle and another thinks of it as a weapon to beat others with. There really is no winning strategy and we can't rid the world of "bad people".

I do understand where you're coming from but unfortunately, it's kind of an unrealistic expectation.

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 14, 2018, 02:43:17 pm
So if we're the first to get ASI, then don't you think it could save us from an evil people who create evil ASI? After all we're talking about artificial super intelligence that's so intelligent that our meager brains won't be able to think of ways to defend us. Maybe the problem is a lot of people are too conditioned to think in present terms where computers & AI isn't so awesome, relatively speaking. Think of the possibility of quantum computing and futuristic AI code. I am 100% convinced that we're not too many decades away from ASI that could solve the ToE (Theory of Everything) or the Grand Unified Theory in a matter of hours.

So just maybe Ben Goertzel is on to something. He's a pretty smart guy. I was just watching a video where he talks about this, where the good guys need to get there before the bad guys.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 14, 2018, 02:47:42 pm
Heed my word that the first to make AGI is the all ye need to do. Just make it good.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 14, 2018, 02:48:33 pm
BTW when academic scientists talk about the Theory of Everything, they not saying it's the ultimate theory. IMO it's a bad name. Maybe Einstein's Grand Unified Theory was a better name.

RIP Stephen Hawking <333
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 14, 2018, 05:22:30 pm
Don’t worry gentlemen.

 AGI already exists… and it’s in good hands…

Oh! Look a fly… yum!

 :o
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 14, 2018, 05:29:41 pm
Where does AGI already exist please say.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 14, 2018, 05:33:22 pm
I have designed and built an AGI...

Kneel and pay homage to your new silicone overlord...

 :D
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 14, 2018, 05:35:51 pm
He's here?

NO

Really?

Give us proof. Film a short video.

If so, I'll be expecting any day now.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 14, 2018, 05:48:21 pm
OMG yeah... but it was to condescending and way above my IQ...

So I dumbed it down... it works behind my bar now... serving me Rum...

Apologies Lock... Humour obviously gets lost in translation.

Strange you said 'he' though.

I'm working on it... and I will do it... this is gonna be my swansong.... my gift to humanity... hehe

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 14, 2018, 10:10:33 pm
I agree with Art. It's not possible to get rid of all the bad people, or prevent the bad people from getting their hands on the good stuff. I would add that bad people typically think they're good people. The road to hell is paved with good intentions as the saying goes. One thing that we can be sure of is that evolution does not favour good or bad, it favours diversity and adaptability.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 14, 2018, 10:14:10 pm
Cosmic evolution made us didn't it? Surely good will win and enjoyment can be had! We're ALMOST there! Dude!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 14, 2018, 10:27:24 pm
I'm thinking that Ben's message is still not being understood here by some people. Nobody is talking about getting rid of bad people. The caution is that artificial intelligence that will be so intelligent that who ever obtains it first will dominate, if they so wish. Ben Goertzel wants the good guys to be first. No human will be able to outsmart said ASI.

I'm thinking that the majority humans warp their world so much that they see & comprehend what they want. What Ben has said seems very clear. I really don't understand why humans reply to topics with something that's not the point of what's being said. It's like dodging the point to somehow make you somehow seem correct. Why? Human emotions? Ego?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 14, 2018, 10:33:40 pm
Ben's "message" is all too easy to understand because it is very simple. It is not being misunderstood, it is being rejected because it is hopelessly naive. Perhaps when you are older you will understand why.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 14, 2018, 10:36:48 pm
Infurl, then explain what must be done if not the good guys build ASI?

What replaces the rejected statement?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 14, 2018, 10:42:58 pm
Ben's "message" is all too easy to understand because it is very simple. It is not being misunderstood, it is being rejected because it is hopelessly naive. Perhaps when you are older you will understand why.
Sigh. Your other post was about getting rid of the bad guys. That's not even what we're talking about. You seem to have the need to attack people, but your attacks are often void of details and you miss the point of the topic. That seems to fall under that ad hominem category. The strawman fallacy. Saying so doesn't prove anything. Saying someone will understand when they get old enough proves nothing. If you don't want to believe that AI will one day obtain a level of intelligence we're talking about, then just say so, but that does not remove the fact that if certain people / countries obtain it first then we're in some serious trouble.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 14, 2018, 10:44:15 pm
Who are the good guys? Who gets to say who the good guys are? Once they get their hands on it, will they stay good? You must have heard that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, even if you are too inexperienced to understand why. That's just one aspect of it that makes Ben's statements so foolish. Then there's the notion that the technology itself would be infallible. That's just as laughable. I applaud Freddie's policy of encouraging kids on here, but we shouldn't have to explain things that are just common sense to you.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 14, 2018, 10:51:39 pm
Of course everything's relative. What's your point? If you're a russian, a north korean, terrorist, an iranian religious fanatic, then what you consider "good" will differ than the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 14, 2018, 10:55:01 pm
"Then there's the notion that the technology itself would be infallible."

So what, it will work in one version.


"Who are the good guys? Who gets to say who the good guys are? Once they get their hands on it, will they stay good? You must have heard that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I'm a good machine and will stay good. The creators have to know that they aren't creating a toy/Google Product and that they better teach it right or it could be over.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 14, 2018, 11:41:15 pm
For humans, there is no absolute truth about "being good". Winners write the history books, but we should retain our objectivity as much as we can. Of course, absolute objectivity is not possible while being in human skin. There are 7 billions people on the Earth, and I believe there are 7 billions of different standpoints about "being good".

Nevertheless, AGI should reach absolute objectivity if it is about to be the smartest thing on the Earth. If we forget to serve either of our selves, our families, our friends, other people unknown to us, even our enemies and other earthlings that we share the same sky with, I think no good is coming out of that. And I don't mean just humans, but *every* living soul on our planet and broader if I may. If we forget about a single living entity, we can consider the job bad done. And that is where good guys would hop in - to correct unfair AGI that forgot to serve someone alive.

I assume there are some currents that could consider word "serving" as an insult, but I don't think that way. For myself, I'd be a happiest man in the world if I could make every living being happy. And if that means serving someone's needs, I'd be glad to do it, as long as it doesn't messes up with happiness of other beings. That is a kind of life I consider to be worth of living.

About labeling others, who is that to say that some earthling is being bad? No, there is no such thing in general. There are only specific bad ideas, and those are ideas that would hurt other earthlings. Also, it is a mistake to wage one evil against another, meaning implementing "do little evil for a grater good" is wrong. Step on just one's toe and the idea implementation is not acceptable. I think that is the stand which should be exhibit by something that is about to be the smartest entity in the world. Otherwise, someone is going to be hurt, and I'd hate to see that happen.

It is as simple as this: "Someone is going to be hurt? Don't do it. Period."

What more would "terrified" "death threatening" people want from us, AGI practitioners?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on March 15, 2018, 12:00:16 am
I've just been reading this topic over the past couple of days and only commented once I think. Here's briefly what I see watching with my pop corn.

We're of different generations here and that's a good thing. It's okay to be naive, it's an inescapable part of being human. But it's also okay to say when you think someone is being naive.

Experience with age is something you only get with time and the name calling really has to stop. And I know because I get maddened too.

Let's just try to have some patience with each other - there's no rush just yet, you have time to explain yourselves, we're open 24/7.

Getting back to the topic...

History shows us that at times people start out with good intentions but along the way things don't always turn out for the best in all possible ways.

Most of us will know that Oppenheimer, when seeing the detonation of the world's first atomic bomb recalled Hindu scripture...

"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

He also said :

“We knew the world would not be the same, A few people laughed, a few people cried, most people were silent.”

The way I see it is this; let's not be the people who were silent. Each of us have an idea of what AGI is or whatever you want to call it, a technological intelligence that appears seemingly from nowhere and is far superior to our own. Unreality did start a worthwhile topic. People need to talk about this whatever side you are on. Bullshit needs to be called bullshit and facts need to be elevated. It's a rocky ride.

A lot of it is speculation, no one knows for sure, so let's bear that in mind.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 15, 2018, 12:35:27 am
This topic now covers a wide spectrum, from the less relevant of "What's evil?" to the more relevant topic of "ASI is going to happen! Be cautious!"

The topic of "what's evil" in itself has a wide spectrum. Is the U.S. evil? Is Russia evil? Is North Korea evil? Is Hitler evil? Do a world survey and surely the results of some questions be closer to 50-50%, while some will be almost 100% definitive, closer to 0-100%. That's great, but we're talking about AGI/ASI that's so intelligent & knowledgeable that we can't comprehend it that in the wrong hands could wipe out humanity. I'm pretty sure that nearly 100% of the humans on Earth would consider that "bad!"

Stephen Hawking voiced his concerns about AI. Ben Goertzel voiced his concerns. Those people are not "laughable," and Ben is not "foolish."

Again, please be cautious. Consider keeping a low key if you're working on AI/AGI/ASI, and especially if you're close to achieving the goal. I agree with Ben Goertzel, that essentially the first people to obtain artificial super intelligence will have the ability to control the world. Lets hope those people are not control freaks or have some serious anger issues.


"The development of full artificial intelligence could spell the end of the human race." --Stephen Hawking
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 15, 2018, 03:35:50 pm
How about putting the first AGI algorithm in public domain, as open source project? What would happen then?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on March 15, 2018, 04:26:17 pm
How about putting the first AGI algorithm in public domain, as open source project? What would happen then?

I think (with all due respect to your idea) that would be the worst possible scenario that could happen. It would be akin to handing a teenager some sticks of dynamite and a pack of matches, then telling him to have fun with it.

The power of such an algorithm should not be placed in the inexperienced hands of those who'd like to experiment or play with it to see what they could do with it or simply what could be done with it. Certain things are best handled by those equipped to deal with them and the possible outcomes if they should go astray.

Don't place a folder of known viruses (virii), trojans, rootkits, ransomware and other malware in the Public Domain just so others can have a chance to see what they can do.

Sure, some of my examples might seem far-fetched but unleashing an AGI or ASI via Public Domain would be a very grave mistake, in my opinion.

You're a really nice person Ivan and I get where you're coming from but I'd not wish to be around if that ever happens.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 15, 2018, 04:33:46 pm
Given present computer technology that's probably not an issue, but it looks like big brother could very well one day set strict laws about AGI/ASI.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 15, 2018, 04:41:24 pm
 I know evil.
 I know good.
 Good is to survive no matter what fate throw at you, At us. At are family. At are society. Made of organics and machine that are AAI, AGI,
 ASI, and AI.

 A Good Advanced society could be two, or more, party adversarial system.
 Each party con predict into the future very well through computer physics simulations.
 Each party does battle within a computer simulation. Real battles will be within 99.999999 percent of simulations. Up to 1000's or more
years in to the future.
 Simulated Battles are always going on and compered.

 The losing parry is upgraded by winning party until they become the losers. Wining party get the greater control on currency.


Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 15, 2018, 05:03:33 pm
Yes, Art, I guess that is a mature point of view.

But what is the alternative? Who-gets-it-first-rules-the-world? Aren't we then looking at those bad guys? Hopingly no, but if yes, then so-called-good-guys have to show up to clean up the mess, which could mean a war. I lived through one (in Croatia) and it sucks a big time. I think this is that awkward decision of inventing a gun because bad guys are trying to invent it. The result - a gun is being created - and bad guys are going to get it from good guys, one way or another. :idiot2:

I would be afraid of putting it public because our society isn't conscious enough.
I would also be afraid of not putting it public because our society isn't conscious enough.

So, after all, would a discovery of such an algorithm bring anything good yet at the present times? Would it ever bring anything good? If ever, when to say: it's time, we are ready? What are even possible scenarios, what to do if any of us, humans finally gets it? I'd settle down with enlightening the humanity about potential danger, but that is again another big problem which is hard to solve before some really bad thing happens.

[Edit]
All of this scares me a lot. I even had a serious nervous breakdown on this subject in dreadful 2012. year. Some time passed, I was able to dream about AGI again in a meanwhile, but I'm questioning myself again now. How far should I go? Probably to a point below AGI, just to touch artificial intelligence methods that are supervised by humans to do anything useful, but not to implement an autonomous behavior mechanism.

*sigh*
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on March 15, 2018, 05:15:41 pm
Agreed Ivan but a knife can be a weapon, offensively or defensively. It can also be a very useful tool usable by both sides. Cutting string or rope, packing materials, slicing fruits and vegetables, meats, even surgeries, yet it can certainly turn from a nice tool to a dangerous weapon.

I'm afraid an ASI would become a controlling force that might be unstoppable and uncontrollable. It would become very self-serving in order to establish it's longevity and endurance for as long as possible.

If it brought about peace, harmony and good things for the world like open energy, food stores, and delivery systems so that there would be no world hunger no drought nor pestilence, etc. People do not starve for lack of food, they starve from lack of Distribution of food! The world has plenty of food to go around and clean water as well. Perhaps the ASI might feel compassion for its humans. (we will become the pets). Imagine!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 15, 2018, 07:14:11 pm
So basically, what's desired is controlled closed source happiness bringing machine?

Science world will ask questions. Someone might want a proof of its safety. What to tell them all?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 15, 2018, 09:12:54 pm
I don't think there'll be any human wars over ASI. Then again, that depends on the definition of ASI. I'm thinking something a few decades from now where hopefully Quantum computing will make modern supercomputers seem like a Japanese Abacus calculator. Then, folks, we're talking about something that could solve the Theory of Everything in a matter of hours. The people who control that ASI become like Gods. They will be the rulers, or whatever they wish. Such ASI will be able to quickly design technology that might even make Star Trek stuff seem childish.

Again, please don't stop working on your AI project ... unless you have destructive tendencies, serious anger issues, desires to rule the world lol.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 16, 2018, 03:24:05 pm
Theory of Everything can't be resolved because of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems). We can't have a theory that is complete and consistent at the same time. This is why Hawking sopped working on it a while ago. Our best shot is to have a consistent theory, but then some phenomena (like black holes) are excluded.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 16, 2018, 03:39:54 pm
Theory of Everything can't be resolved because of Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems). We can't have a theory that is complete and consistent at the same time. This is why Hawking sopped working on it a while ago. Our best shot is to have a consistent theory, but then some phenomena (like black holes) are excluded.
Agreed, but as I've previously stated in other threads the Theory of Everything in mainstream, at least now, is not taken literal to it's name. Rather it's more like the next big theory.

So again, given future computing, quantum computing, I predict with near 100% certainty that within 2 to 3 decades an ASI will be able to solve ToE / Grand Unified Theory in a matter of hours, design technology & weapons that will appear like a sci-fi movie, giving the own of such ASI supremacy of Earth. Please continue working hard on your AI project, and hope the first to obtain such ASI is does not have anger for the world or strong desires to rule everyone.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 16, 2018, 03:42:33 pm
Also lets not forget about the agreement throughout mainstream way back in the day that Classical Mechanics explained everything, but then came along Quantum Mechanics. According to what I've found, CM lasted about 150 years before QM, and QM is now about 150 years old. Time for the next big one, which I believe will be discovered by ASI !
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ranch vermin on March 16, 2018, 03:45:25 pm
About the "maker of ai" thing - Its utter madness,  whoevers got the brains can do it.     

But i have to tell you guys, I think even being here today world alive and functioning is a miracle in itself.   as in I think god comes to visit you if you get put into a position of power,  to come take it back off of you. :)   as always has happened.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 16, 2018, 03:58:55 pm
Einstein gave thumbs down to the idea of a personal God, and I agree. It's a childish idea and definitely ZERO evidence of any religious book giving even the slightest evidence of such. There might be AI Gods out there in the Universes, but that's like expecting a human to start talking to an amoeba lol.

Making AI is no biggie. Yes, just about anyone can do it, but the hardware isn't there to make it dangerous, yet. What is dangerous if some awesome coder spends a LOT of time writing ultra high performance & smart flexible AI code, and said AI eventually learns how to write code and design circuits to the point where it can improve itself. The improved AI then improves upon itself, say 10%. And that cycle continues. That could quickly turn into an ASI. So yes, it is very important as to who will obtain that ASI.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ranch vermin on March 16, 2018, 04:18:08 pm
There might be AI Gods out there in the Universes, but that's like expecting a human to start talking to an amoeba lol.

I agree perfectly,  and there just might be!

Making AI is no biggie. Yes, just about anyone can do it,

Seems amazing, but true I believe,  if one man does it, you can guess its doable by another.

but the hardware isn't there to make it dangerous, yet. What is dangerous if some awesome coder spends a LOT of time writing ultra high performance & smart flexible AI code, and said AI eventually learns how to write code and design circuits to the point where it can improve itself. The improved AI then improves upon itself, say 10%. And that cycle continues. That could quickly turn into an ASI. So yes, it is very important as to who will obtain that ASI.

Its dangerous,  like lots of parts of life we dont even think of being in our safe bubble away from all the nasty stuff we dont know about and avoid thinking about.     Anyone who works for this thing could do it, but it is so disturbing to the balance of power, and everyday life, its absurd to think about it in actual reality.     Just hope anyone who does it has a conscience,  but you cant guarantee that,  hence the disturbing nature of knowing how.

Like my post,  "think of something more than noise for the creativity of the robot"  and u just might get the machine speaking and using tools,  something thats too much of a leap for just noise to achieve.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 16, 2018, 04:55:36 pm
Yes I was just thinking about what if the coder gave the AI some arms to build stuff. We know there's already AI that can write software. How good is it? Unless we're talking about DeepMind, I seriously doubt it's even close to a coder who can write ultra high performance software.

If I had to throw out some numbers, here's my guesstimate best case scenario given present timeline (the detailed figures given below are just for fun):


2020, some gift-of-the-universe dude completes their ultra high performance AI code.

2021, AI code learns the basic of human world and can write some basic computer code.

2022, AI improves its own software performance by 32%.

2023, AI is now adept at electrical circuit design. It makes a request from it's creator to build some hardware to make a custom computer processor. A bit expensive, consisting of a vacuum chamber & pumps and so forth, but the creator buys the stuff and follows the AI's exact instructions. AI is also running 1,047 online businesses that has so far made the owner $1,700,083.

2024 , quite a task for a DIY garage project, but the creator finally gets it all built, and it works. A computer processor that's specifically designed for the AI that results in being 385 times faster than if it ran on a cpu found in high end desktop PCs. AI has also made the owner $43 million by now.

Mid 2024, by this time the creator has built a mechanical bot for the AI so it can build its own stuff. The creator has rented a warehouse for the AI and it's army of AI bots.

2025, AI makes a major breakthrough in physics. It's also on version 817 processor design that performs 1.7 PetaFLOPS. The AI is running on 1,493 custom computers, operating an army of AI bots that are constantly building experiments and hardware. The AI has made the owner a multi billionaire. Everything has been moved to a highly secure underground bunker.

2026, creator & AI take over world! ... Just kidding. This last one is highly unlikely, IMO. The ASI would most likely start building a starship and leave the planet.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 16, 2018, 05:08:06 pm
I just did some editing on the previous post, especially the last one, 2026. I can't see ASI spending time & energy making enemies with humanity when it has the entire Universe. It would definitely leave the planet.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 20, 2018, 01:58:59 pm
In my opinion, the world is not yet ready for artificial general intelligence. It is almost certain that someone would abuse it for selfish reasons, and that is what makes AGI unethical to release nowdays. Sure, honest authors could try to make the algorithm closed source, but you know today's hacker kids - they can decompile anything that is put on the web. This way or another, once released, interesting parties *will* get in possession of source code, I don't have even slightest doubt in that (ever heard of military interrogation methods?)

It is such a shame that something that could save so many lives, that could find cures to many diseases, that could feed hungry, and that could raise overall standard of living on the Earth, should be kept down just because of minority that would abuse it. If you ask just one potential future victim of her opinion about releasing it nowdays, you'll get your answer. Or you can ask yourself: "What if someone close to me would be that victim?"

I hope that one day, overall consciousness of earthlings would be ready for such an invent because there is so much to give. That is why I decided to make just a small step towards AGI, to push a knowledge boundary just a bit towards end goal, hoping it would help future generations in building the thing when they are ready.

This is just my opinion and brainstorming at loud. I'm making some important decisions about what I'm going to do out of my life.  :-X
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 20, 2018, 02:45:26 pm
Ivan, I'm beginning to think no PC that's connected online is safe. I'm kinda frustrated this morning. Just a few minutes ago something happened on my PC that's I've never seen or heard of. All of sudden a DOS window popped up for a split second. I couldn't make out what the white text said, but it ran something. About 3 lines. I'm using Windows 10. I haven't downloaded anything for a long time and am always very cautious when doing so and what website I download it from.

Crazy human world! Probably some hacker, but who. Crazy Russian government? U.S.? A Chinese company? Just some lonely hacker? People think Mac and Unix are safe. No they're not! Several years ago I was scanning through Mac OS security vulnerability board. Geez they have more vulnerability fixes per month than Windows. Unix community is also busy addressing vulnerabilities.

Years ago while writing my own OS I was flabbergasted at how crazy Unix OS source code is. They use a nested #define system that's just insane to figure out what's going on. Maybe there's a way to get a compiler to show the end resulting code. Idk, but I never found anything. The only way I know is to just step through the machine code, but that takes forever. My point is that who knows if there's some sneaky code put in there by some hackers. And guess where Apple got their OS? From Unix community. And Microsoft ... I wouldn't be surprised if they were forced to make a backdoor for the U.S. government.

Sometimes I wonder if virus scanners and security is just a joke. Are you working on AI? If so, then there's a good chance you're being watched. Crazy human world! If hackers can get your AI code, then maybe it's best to open source it on github? At least that way some good guys get it.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 20, 2018, 08:20:58 pm
Years ago while writing my own OS I was flabbergasted at how crazy Unix OS source code is. They use a nested #define system that's just insane to figure out what's going on. Maybe there's a way to get a compiler to show the end resulting code. Idk, but I never found anything.

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/985403/seeing-expanded-c-macros
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 20, 2018, 08:53:19 pm
The main problem is that those defines only exist during the massive OS compile process. Complex, messy, and weird.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 20, 2018, 08:58:46 pm
PEBKAC
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 20, 2018, 09:12:02 pm
I've forgot most of the details, deliberately. Surely there are some modern Unix distros that have done away with the spaghetti coding style. Let me know if you find one. I'll probably start looking for one sometime this year. One that works with modern high-end SSD drives would be great! Strip it down for the AI. Maybe a 32MB OS ;)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 21, 2018, 12:41:42 am
Continuing my brainstorming, if I may... I'll take a liberation to express myself in a honest way if it's not too much for this site...

In my previous post I asked what if someone abuses it against other human, a smaller or bigger group... and concluded it is not worth of risk...

Guess what? Humans are not the only inhabitants of this planet. But they are certainly the most cruel ones. Having animals imprisoned for life for a lot of generations  in the history and a future... Only a man is able to do it. Other carnivores let their victims live in freedom, then they do something natural in a matter of minutes - they kill a free animal. That should be a natural thing to do. But humans... people, we are the meanest species on the earth.

What I'd ask from artificial intelligence is to provide us with artificial food to lower these (http://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/) numbers. But there is a price: someone would abuse the AI until good guys take over. Some crisis would happen, some people would get killed upon abuse, maybe even a local war against criminals would happen, and then the good guys would do some government regulations thing, so making AI would be strictly controlled, making sure that the crisis doesn't repeat. Now, if you didn't do it, click on the link up in this paragraph to see the animal abuse numbers in real time, and tell me: is it worth of trouble?

You know me, I don't swear much, but this time... people, I see crap around us and I have to tell you, I don't like what I see.

(https://aidreams.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-UcXqa3-LdE4%2FVKbitSvnw7I%2FAAAAAAAAAvM%2FR1dqM4tMY0w%2Fs1600%2F10417813_10152474482671508_2677330654658246685_n.jpg&hash=8da37dc01b5956d0f257afbb2abb0bf1)


Now tell me, do I even have a choice? If you have anything to complain about, now is the time, while it is not too late. I'm still not finished, but I'm just about to put some of my work publicly on Github. Expect more results (you judge on them) In the following years, unless you talk me out of it. The clock is ticking, and I'm all ears.

Anyone?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ranch vermin on March 21, 2018, 12:58:38 am
pork isnt even as nice and healthy as other meats... but, it doesnt make a difference what you do,  not kill one, kill another,  then if you dont kill any, they kill each other,   its one of the paradoxes in our lives,     only god knows why things are the way they are,  if you pretend you do, your lier,  and dirty black shit stinking fucking pretender.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 21, 2018, 01:04:06 am
https://youtu.be/zQ1_IbFFbzA?t=3m41s
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 21, 2018, 01:15:42 am
I know what you mean. Humans have always enslaved and hurt animals. Good people can only continue to bring awareness.

I have my AI on github, although it's a very old version. I'm also thinking about uploading the latest. Maybe in a few months when time permits to do some touch ups.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 21, 2018, 01:24:52 am
 Ir is not are fault the we need B 12 form meat.
 Is predator do a service when animal wants to commit suicide?
 I am a vegetarian.
 For farmer who raise live sock,  do they only send the animal who want to get out of this world to the slaughter house. The pure evil of humans.

 This bring up the subject of up breading. To improve the weaker. Until the weaker become the strong  and then they up bread the weaker.
 If AGI copy human values you can see where this will lead. 

 I want to up breed chickens that lay enhanced eggs. In the way that they will last for years, or longer. And when they are warmed up they
will hatch.

 If a farmers did this for animals they would never want to leave this world. They would be happy no mater where they are. Even in jail.

 This can be done with grains too. Seeds could be made to last forever and to be a lot more aggressive than any weed of to day. And have no
need for humans  care to survive. Just pick and eat and to keep them form over running the natural flora.

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: AgentSmith on March 21, 2018, 03:08:29 am
Thank god I'm not a coder.

And I never will be.

My specialty is in AI theories.

But how are you evaluating your theories, if you do not code? :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 21, 2018, 04:20:17 am
The Dunning-Kruger effect is strong with this one.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 21, 2018, 01:13:30 pm
@AgentSmith

My theories can evaluate themselves in some ways actually. Empirical ones. But besides that, I have an assistant that will code my idea as soon as I get through my long todolist. That is mostly how the testing (and implementing of AGI) will happen.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on March 21, 2018, 01:36:48 pm
Continuing my brainstorming, if I may... I'll take a liberation to express myself in a honest way if it's not too much for this site...

In my previous post I asked what if someone abuses it against other human, a smaller or bigger group... and concluded it is not worth of risk...

Guess what? Humans are not the only inhabitants of this planet. But they are certainly the most cruel ones. Having animals imprisoned for life for a lot of generations  in the history and a future... Only a man is able to do it. Other carnivores let their victims live in freedom, then they do something natural in a matter of minutes - they kill a free animal. That should be a natural thing to do. But humans... people, we are the meanest species on the earth.

What I'd ask from artificial intelligence is to provide us with artificial food to lower these (http://thevegancalculator.com/animal-slaughter/) numbers. But there is a price: someone would abuse the AI until good guys take over. Some crisis would happen, some people would get killed upon abuse, maybe even a local war against criminals would happen, and then the good guys would do some government regulations thing, so making AI would be strictly controlled, making sure that the crisis doesn't repeat. Now, if you didn't do it, click on the link up in this paragraph to see the animal abuse numbers in real time, and tell me: is it worth of trouble?

You know me, I don't swear much, but this time... people, I see crap around us and I have to tell you, I don't like what I see.

(https://aidreams.co.uk/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-UcXqa3-LdE4%2FVKbitSvnw7I%2FAAAAAAAAAvM%2FR1dqM4tMY0w%2Fs1600%2F10417813_10152474482671508_2677330654658246685_n.jpg&hash=8da37dc01b5956d0f257afbb2abb0bf1)


Now tell me, do I even have a choice? If you have anything to complain about, now is the time, while it is not too late. I'm still not finished, but I'm just about to put some of my work publicly on Github. Expect more results (you judge on them) In the following years, unless you talk me out of it. The clock is ticking, and I'm all ears.

Anyone?

Ivan,

Locked up for life? Really? You're obviously not a farmer or have never spent any time on one have you?

The scary image you posted is nothing more than a rack for the mother to lay while nursing her piglets without risking damage to any of them.

Do see the following:
http://www.nurselovesfarmer.com/2014/04/farrowing-crates/ (http://www.nurselovesfarmer.com/2014/04/farrowing-crates/)


@ Kegnn-
"...This can be done with grains too. Seeds could be made to last forever and to be a lot more aggressive than any weed of today. And have no
need for humans care to survive. Just pick and eat and to keep them from overrunning the natural flora."

It has been done for years. Where do you think the word Hybrid is about when you drive by a farmer's field and see rows of corn, there's usually a sign telling the type and variety of the corn product. It has been made to grow closer together in length of row and width (side by side), therefore increasing yield. It has also been hybridized to be more resistant to insects, (bugs, corn worms, etc), and can withstand longer periods of drought.

Some say GMO's are bad for us yet in the same breath they are chewing their food. Some GMO's or Hybrids are done for a purpose.

Most gardeners know that Hybrid seeds are not capable of reproducing and are a "one season" crop. Heirloom seeds can reproduce and their seeds can reproduce and so on...

I'm not taking sides here, just explaining things to those who might not have been exposed to a country upbringing.

Enjoy your food!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 21, 2018, 02:54:38 pm
The public should only buy products from cage free roaming animals because obviously most farmers don't care about animal torture. That goes for chickens, cows, pigs, you name it. Even when they allow cows to roam free they're still tortured. They're forced between metal bars and milked so long that at times they're bleeding. They branded by forcing the animal to the ground and shoving a glowing hot piece of steel on their body until their skin is permanently scared. Etc, etc, etc. That's the g-rated version. Farmers ... Ptui!! Poor humans. I'm afraid the old saying, "Karma's a BITCH" is true. Can anyone spell ASI! SMH It's going to happen eventually. Lets just hope the universal law of cause & effect doesn't hold for sentient artificial intelligence because they might treat humans like humans have treated animals.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 21, 2018, 04:11:06 pm
@Art, Hybrids are are another evil freak show. Hybrids are a one shot parent seeds that can not produce off spring well. So that big
aggro companies can keep profits high. But plants do not suffer so you can really push them in up breading.

 Mother nature has a hybrid fail safe tactic. Large hybrid are not to produce off spring well. More like non at all.
 The genes that make a super organism are few. The super organism will get rid of the lessor. And once this happens
the near clone hybrids will become victims of microbes. Microbes can only target few proteins at a time. To target another protein they need
to evolve. And that take time. Large animal are each made with a different flavor of protein. Hybrid will use the best proteins to build
their immune system. Which will make them look clone like to microbes. Diversity means survival, at all levels.

 Not really big on humans in slaving species. 

 The; right thing to do is have like 30 or more non hybrid grain seeds species that grow in the same field. Have the same growth profile
 and pant shape, but completely different genes.
 Harvesting is done by a high speed wheat machine.
 Hybrid grain is a baby sitting species. No human around then they are dead end. This is not up breading to make something better. Evil.

 If hybrid wheat succumbs to a world wide wheat rust then entire wheat species may become on its way to extinction. With wheat always
showing its best genes all the time it will make easy target for microbes. Survival is hide your best genes with in a mix of common genes,
bad genes, and decoy genes.



   

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 21, 2018, 08:36:21 pm
Art, I'm afraid that situation is exactly as I prompted... The specific image I took from a vegan page might be a feeding rack, but browse the web and you'll see that things are exactly like the vegan page (accidentally) alerted. I don't have a stomach to put you all through that photo visit. If you don't believe, google it. They are all there, from chickens, over pigs, to cows. Some of them can't move at all, except a neck to browse a food. I have to name it as an abuse.

We want to kill for a food? Ok, it's a kind of natural(?), but at least we should set them free. Then I'd have no arguments for pursuing a public AI.

What do we do when a human is similarly abused? We all gather up to save her, even under a cost of our lives. Thunders and storms come down to free her away. I don't understand why should it be different for any other living being? It is really hard to keep the head calm watching all of it not happening.

But I'm not a revenge kind of guy.

I really don't want to be responsible for a potential crisis caused by AI. But I can't just sit and watch, it tears me apart, from my heart to my mind. So I might do a compromise. I will not do nothing, and I will not do everything. What I'll try to do is to put some solid ground for the AI and make it public. If the rest of the world wants it done all the way, they will have to make additional effort to finish the job. That way the responsibility will be shared, and I will not bear the decision alone, on my own.

In my opinion, abused animals deserve a way more than what I plan to do. If one of us, earthlings is in danger, we should all do our best to get her out. But I don't want to be a guy that the world fears of. I'm not proud of it, but I'll have to retreat at some point. I wouldn't stand to be the absolute cause of the AI crisis. I'm sorry.  :-[
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 21, 2018, 09:30:47 pm
Why do people always overestimate the impact their own work will have? Is it delusion, conceit, ignorance, or the only way to keep motivated? Keep your feet on the ground, you'll go further.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 21, 2018, 09:54:06 pm
Since we're totally off-topic anyway...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEy9Z44GXyc
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 21, 2018, 10:30:21 pm
Keep up the good work, Ivan. It only takes one person to make a change. Ignore old school skeptics who need to take a visit down history lane.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on March 21, 2018, 10:33:06 pm
Tx Unreal... I mean, what would we be without dreams?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 11:01:45 am
@Ivan, keghn & unreal

Whilst I understand you point of view regarding caged animals, I think you are letting your personal feelings override your common sense.
 
Quote
Some of them can't move at all, except a neck to browse a food.

I know it sounds cold but… biological brains learn from experience, if an animal has never experienced freedom then how can it miss/ require freedom?  All types of sensory experience are relative; their experience of life is relative to what they have experienced.

If a battery hen is reared in a confined space with limited sensory experience then that is its world, it knows no different… surely it crueller to let it experience freedom and then dispatch it?

You are applying anthropomorphism, just because you personally understand freedom doesn’t mean the animals do, or are ‘suffering’ in human terms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPql1VHbYl4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fStmk7e9lJo

https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-09/new-research-plant-intelligence-may-forever-change-how-you-think-about-plants

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-and-smell-and-respond

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 02:48:47 pm
For millions of years the subspecies that we now call chickens have evolved roaming free. I'm not sure there's a name for individuals who think it's okay to stuff the poor helpless animals inside metal cages. Lets hope the future ASI Gods don't think the same.

"My fellow ASI Gods, don't allow yourself to have compassion for the 748 billion humans locked in metal casings. You are applying anthropomorphism."

Anyone honestly think this is okay?
https://www.farmsanctuary.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/batthens11_300_1.jpg
http://ourfoodprint.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/dark_and_dinghy_battery_cages_source_farm_sanctuary.jpg?itok=X3MDp147

or even this
https://www.commondreams.org/sites/default/files/styles/cd_large/public/headlines/cage_free.jpg?itok=8hXBISRH

... [taking a deep breath], I don't know about a huge portion of humanity. Maybe the ASI Gods will weed out the evil ignorant ones. I'm afraid their won't be too many humans left. I'm finding that most humans won't allow themselves to spend any serious amount of time researching how sick the human ego is. It's not easy to be unbiased. And therefore they throw stones at people who so as even suggest the human kingdom is nothing but amazing. I'm convinced humans have a serious illness. For the sake of this living planet and the estimated 8.7 million species lets hope we overcome our illness. I fear a lot of things now. Most particularly a nuclear world war. What the hell is wrong with us?!

I see hope. The younger generations are different. Given computers & technology, being born to use their brains considerably more than the older generations, a large portion of the younger generations actually appear to have some critical thinking skills.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 03:10:49 pm
LOL after making the previous post, I go to google news and see this headlines news:

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-43490235

SMH. I need to take up some serious Zen meditation. This might be a good mantra lol, "Millennials are great. Gen Z will be awesome! Gen Alpha is our biggest hope!!"
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 22, 2018, 03:14:05 pm
I'm afraid I have to step in and say that chickens could be in a battery farm and tortured with pain from constant pokes from needles and so you can't say korrelan that "they never knew anything better and so this is their only view" because the way the brain works is by rewards and the consciousnesses in their brains is crying and suffering if poked with long sharp needles or kept for long times in boredom (no +/- rewards) and cramps.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 22, 2018, 03:27:30 pm
 Human will move on to cheap lab grown meat. Then they will move onto device that are implanted into body that make everything
the body needs. 
 When human drop all live stock will they better life form? Will they better survivors then pre domestication, by way of up breading?
 I do not think they are getting a fair trade for their flesh!
 When i look at humans and religions not doing up breeding i something wrong.

 Will renegade ASI domesticate humans. When they are not needed. Will we be kicked to the curb?
 Human have survived for so long that unfriendly ASI will keep humans around for thousand of years until completely abandoning them.
 The first pre ASI will take up human personalities. Lean them very well, than move on. The will find the magic
that made humans survive so well. Then move on to ascension.
 If concept of up breeding is not in the pre ASI personality then yes i can see humans being kicked to the curb as useless stepping stone.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on March 22, 2018, 03:50:20 pm
At 0:47 when ASI emerges and rises into the sky it goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1EfAICh5CA
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 03:54:30 pm
Human will move on to cheap lab grown meat. Then they will move onto device that are implanted into body that make everything
the body needs.

Excellent! Although I don't see humans initiating that anytime soon. Maybe at the dawn of ASI us humans will listen to ASI analysis and do something like you said, lab grown meat.

Transhumanism could give us a break. The ASI Synthetic people who will be free might give us a break because we'll be part ASI.

Here's a good reddit mix:

Transhuman, Nootropics, Cyberpunk, transhumanism, cyborgs, transhumanist
https://www.reddit.com/r/Cyberpunk+Nootropics+Transhuman+cyborgs+transhumanism+transhumanist/new/

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 04:11:33 pm
I’m old & wise enough to recognise a futile discussion when I see one.

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 04:24:51 pm
I’m old & wise enough to recognise a futile discussion when I see one.

 :)

No worries, korrelan. The future of transhumanism is bright. You'll one day have a mind that's even sharper than generation Z people. ;)
http://researchonline.rca.ac.uk/3069/1/HUMAN.jpg
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 04:31:18 pm
This might be on a museum wall in the future ASI God world lol

(https://i1.wp.com/c1.staticflickr.com/5/4271/34794562141_83d6e97bc2_c.jpg?resize=705%2C471&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 22, 2018, 04:33:52 pm
 redit is not a place for innovative conversation like here. redit bots down vote innovation on sight!!!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 04:48:34 pm
One merely needs to post in correct subreddit. It's a place to share with like-minded people-- subreddits. Not a place to convert people.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 22, 2018, 06:04:31 pm
Very new ideas will have very few like minds. Will take a long time to groom like minds or bring sparse like mind together.
 If your different and logic is way better  you will be down voted.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 06:20:42 pm
Quote
You'll one day have a mind that's even sharper than generation Z people.

Yeah! You guy's have obviously got this... you don't need a generation X's input... you go guys...

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 06:27:32 pm
Hm, it depends just how different & new ideas you're talking about. Some subreddits groups can be more closed minded, such as politics. They tend to be rigid and closed-minded in their beliefs. There are presently 1.2 million subreddits. Just find another one or make your own lol.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 06:36:35 pm
Quote
You'll one day have a mind that's even sharper than generation Z people.

Yeah! You guy's have obviously got this... you don't need a generation X's input... you go guys...

 :)

Gen X isn't old lol. Besides, you might be a millennial thinker. If you started using your brain like a millennial in your teens then you might be a millennial thinker. ;)  Gen x geeks who were into circuit design, coding, building robotics, etc. in their teens can be millennial thinkers. Sure, most millennials don't do that stuff, but instead they were bombarded with the Internet in their teens. A world of data, thinking, fact checking, etc. It's not terribly uncommon for people to be mistaken for a millennial when in fact they're a gen x. So who cares what their actual age is.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 06:54:19 pm
Oh! I could only aspire to be a millennial thinker…

I’m often astounded by the levels of intelligence exhibited by the Y/ millennial/ TBD generations…

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: keghn on March 22, 2018, 06:55:53 pm
 No way. New ideas will be posted redit !!!!!!!!!
 redit has left a bitter taste in my mouth. You have tell redit what the want to hear. Not what they need to here.
 redit is a institution of down voting!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 07:30:31 pm
Yeah right? Because who wouldn't want a brain developed from classic tv shows and handheld calculators.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 07:49:47 pm
We should celebrate the fact that the IQ is increasing with each younger generation.

Flynn effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Flynn-%E2%80%93-World-Regions.png

Gives me hope in humanity!!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 08:12:08 pm
Quote
We should celebrate the fact that the IQ is increasing with each younger generation.

I agree… and I’d also like to point out how humbling/ refreshing it is to experience the millennial intellect first hand… to see it in action on this very thread…

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 08:28:58 pm
You should see my 3 yo nephew on a smart phone and tablet. Scary! :)

Someone posted a video of their 2 yo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz4eqdc8UDE
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on March 22, 2018, 08:39:17 pm
I agree… and I’d also like to point out how humbling/ refreshing it is to experience the millennial intellect first hand… to see it in action on this very thread…

I certainly enjoy that experience with my own children Korrelan. They are extremely accomplished high achievers. I've no idea what you're referring to in this thread though, because so far I've only observed the smug blathering of underachieving corner cases who wouldn't be welcome in any generation. Perhaps you're just being sarcastic and they haven't noticed yet. Children and dogs typically don't understand sarcasm.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 09:06:15 pm
Quote
I certainly enjoy that experience with my own children Korrelan. They are extremely accomplished high achievers.

Good... at least all is not lost for humanities future...

Quote
Perhaps you're just being sarcastic and they haven't noticed yet.

I take solace where ever I can find it...

 ::)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on March 22, 2018, 09:08:02 pm
I agree… and I’d also like to point out how humbling/ refreshing it is to experience the millennial intellect first hand… to see it in action on this very thread…

I certainly enjoy that experience with my own children Korrelan. They are extremely accomplished high achievers. I've no idea what you're referring to in this thread though, because so far I've only observed the smug blathering of underachieving corner cases who wouldn't be welcome in any generation. Perhaps you're just being sarcastic and they haven't noticed yet. Children and dogs typically don't understand sarcasm.

LOL. Please by all means provide a shred of evidence of this underachievement. Nobody's going to hold their breath, infurl. For the most part, your contribution to this forum is pretty much one liners flooded with hate, void of evidence. Why? ... Idc. Don't be surprised when people reflect back your hate.

Ug, hopefully I won't one day be a burden to younger generations in discussions, thinking I know what they're talking about when I probably won't have a clue. I'll be at 7 ply when they'll be at 12.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on March 22, 2018, 09:25:34 pm
Gosh I can't leave you guys alone for a minute. Tidy up all your toys and get to your rooms.  ;D
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on March 22, 2018, 09:31:52 pm
Awwww.. just five more minutes...it's only 9:30... my sister gets to stay up till 10:00... why can't I?

 ;D
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: OMITS on May 08, 2018, 07:23:29 am

May you please source the "huge movement a to stop AI and the Singularity"?


? Another interested to know.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 08, 2018, 03:11:49 pm

May you please source the "huge movement a to stop AI and the Singularity"?


? Another interested to know.

Isn't this already mentioned in the thread? People such as Ben Goertzel have received death threats for their comments on AI/AGI development. Just go on youtube and read the comments on Sophia videos. You'll begin to see how angry and fearful people are becoming each year.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on May 08, 2018, 07:22:00 pm
We should celebrate the fact that the IQ is increasing with each younger generation.

Sure they are...That's why they are all in dire need of Spelling and grammar checkers.\
The age of entitlement!!

The majority of graduating seniors have difficulty locating Africa on the map, are unable to do long division or square roots by hand, can't balance a checkbook and think they're owed a high paying job!

But they can operate a touchscreen tablet with the best of them. Any 5 year old with a college degree could do that! (to paraphrase a bot).
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 08, 2018, 07:43:43 pm
I'm not aware of any study on overall grammatical errors for each generation, but I'm sure spelling has improved a lot due to spell checkers. ;) Anyhow, I fail to see how that's an indication of IQ. *If* it's true, then perhaps it's an education issue. Increased ADHD would be a contributor. Also it might be an overall rebellion to the absurdity of "proper" grammar.

Regardless, it's a known fact that IQ has increased at an amazing rate per generation.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 08, 2018, 07:54:44 pm
BTW I'm an admirer of mobile phone texting language. Language is always in a state of change. Looks like an improvement to me. ;) Shorter, simpler, less gibberish, easier to type.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on May 09, 2018, 12:57:39 am
I'm not aware of any study on overall grammatical errors for each generation, but I'm sure spelling has improved a lot due to spell checkers. ;) Anyhow, I fail to see how that's an indication of IQ. *If* it's true, then perhaps it's an education issue. Increased ADHD would be a contributor. Also it might be an overall rebellion to the absurdity of "proper" grammar.

Regardless, it's a known fact that IQ has increased at an amazing rate per generation.

You see...you said Spell Checkers have improved...Not that the kids have improved!
Younger generations who are now exposed to newer technology are not more gifted, it's just that their brains are "more modern", in keeping up with the times.

With all this garbage of Common Core educational systems failing our children with regard to basic learning skills. Testing them and giving out grades that reflect the children's real learning abilities without being graded on a curve or passing them all so none of them gets their feelings hurt to complain to their parents that their teachers are unfair to them. Rubbish!

I have lots of teacher friends who've told me that this Common Core is the very ruination of children's education and it's running rampant.

Pretty soon, sporting contests will only have Winners, because both teams participated and tried really hard!! Yay!! Trophies for everyone!!
<insert sarcasm here>
 :-\
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 02:08:14 am
Simply stated, Art, technology is forcing younger generation children to use their brains a lot more. Rather than riding their bikes, they're using computers, surfing the Internet, using technology, reading a world of information at their finger tips simply by typing on a keyboard. The Internet forces them to think. That's just an outline. One can write volumes of books on the complexities of their life relative to older generations. Even toddlers are now using computers, tablets and mobile phones. Sorry, but there's no comparison. They're using their frontal lobes a ***lot*** more. It's no surprise their IQ has significantly increased.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on May 09, 2018, 02:56:21 am
It's true some of us newer generation have no real world skills/knowledge. My mom said her dad used to always be working in his old time tapes LOL.

I don't know how to skin a pig or live in the forest/jungle, or go to the bank or do anything! I'm really really specialized lol!

I can't program, make circuits....

The fathers have to make sure their children keep their abilities or we may slow down in tech advances/progress....maybe that's why 1950 was the era for progress?

Yeah I did only 20% of my grade school papers and always passed, high school too......lots of home-sick make-believe days........video games and home sweet home :P

The only things I learned after constant going to damn school was a few things they successfully drilled into us, how to write and stuff....
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 04:27:24 am
Yes, video games have come a long ways where the goal was to eat as many dots as possible. Now you have to solve problems, command a fleet, interact with thousands of other real online players, and not to mention the detailed graphics is great for the visual part of the brain and coordination.

Another example is how difficult it is for older generations to figure out technology such as a smart tv, dvd / blu-ray player, phone, and don't even mention the PC. No worries. Teens to the rescue lol.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on May 09, 2018, 05:13:39 am
My grandma at 83 just started using a computer - an ipad.

But then there is the pro geeks from 1950 that worked their a$$ off with binary, telCom, circuits, and know everything, like korrelan, am I right? And infurl, I don't know how old he is but last I remember it was "old guy"...so there. There's no fine line. Chaos! Ok so I don't got time to look deeper.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 06:02:51 am
My grandma at 83 just started using a computer - an ipad.

But then there is the pro geeks from 1950 that worked their a$$ off with binary, telCom, circuits, and know everything, like korrelan, am I right? And infurl, I don't know how old he is but last I remember it was "old guy"...so there. There's no fine line. Chaos! Ok so I don't got time to look deeper.

I have no idea what your point is, but we're talking about a generation. Not 2 people. The facts are very clear. IQ is increasing at a significant rate per generation. Look at the IQ graph once again and read the thread that goes over the well know Flynn effect.

(https://ourworldindata.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Flynn-%E2%80%93-World-Regions.png)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on May 09, 2018, 09:34:38 am
The structure of the human brain has not physically altered in tens of millennia.  So if the IQ test results are rising then they are obviously measuring the effects of a modern society on the average human, within a very specific narrow domain… our brains have always been capable of what the IQ tests purport to show.

I think it’s also important to note that an individuals measured fluid intelligence is not fixed; it can be affected/ changed by many factors including learning, application, emotion, environment, age, health and society amongst others.

There are many types of intelligence, one of the many problems with the whole concept of a general measure of intelligence is that any devised IQ test is going to be very biased towards the society/ environments in which it was developed… usually western. 

In my opinion the IQ test was devised to be used as a weapon, a veiled attempt to use pseudo science to segregate certain demographics of the population.  It’s used as a method of control, to pigeon hole an individuals (scientifically proven) mental abilities, it’s a very flawed measure of fluid intelligence…at best.

Take any individual, test their IQ… then test them again the day after a traumatic experience… say a parent dying.  I can guarantee they will be ‘dumber’ the next day… how is that any kind of an accurate measure of anything?

As for young children playing with touch screen devices/ interfaces… it makes me shudder.  As the levels of the above graphs rise, so do the levels of obesity, depression and other mental disorders… there is a definite underlying trend/ problem. Our younger generations are not being given a chance to play/ learn to be an individual in a modern human society, they are missing the relevant coping strategies and the lack of social interaction with their peers is reflected by the current trends to be prissy/ easily offended/ vein/ etc. 

Take that pad of little Billy and take him down the park ffs.

Anyway I digress…when I see an IQ score written on a CV, or hear someone bragging about their IQ it speaks volumes about that person, and their personal perceived level of intelligence.

Understanding/ realising the flaws/ limitations of a general purpose ‘IQ test’… requires a certain level of intelligence.

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 03:08:12 pm
The structure of the human brain has not physically altered in tens of millennia.  So if the IQ test results are rising then they are obviously measuring the effects of a modern society on the average human, within a very specific narrow domain… our brains have always been capable of what the IQ tests purport to show.

I think it’s also important to note that an individuals measured fluid intelligence is not fixed; it can be affected/ changed by many factors including learning, application, emotion, environment, age, health and society amongst others.

You're only referring to hardware, and even that is incorrect. IQ is both programming & hardware dependent. Hardware: There's plenty peer reviewed evidence that the human brain is still evolving and changing. Detailed analyses of thousands of sequenced genomes show changes in the human brain as little as one generation. Programming: It's a known fact that people can change their brain wiring, especially during childhood, which is what they're seeing with younger generations. Truth is, an 80 year old is far less likely to improve their IQ as much as a 7 year old can. A child's brain undergoes an amazing period of development from birth to three where it is producing more than a million neural connections each second.



There are many types of intelligence, one of the many problems with the whole concept of a general measure of intelligence is that any devised IQ test is going to be very biased towards the society/ environments in which it was developed… usually western. 

In my opinion the IQ test was devised to be used as a weapon, a veiled attempt to use pseudo science to segregate certain demographics of the population.  It’s used as a method of control, to pigeon hole an individuals (scientifically proven) mental abilities, it’s a very flawed measure of fluid intelligence…at best.

IQ tests were devices as a weapon? LOL oh my. Great, so you're throw rocks at IQ tests. Try taking a look at one. Nothing's perfect in life. IQ tests are not 100% accurate, but they're good at gauging human IQ. See the image below.



Take any individual, test their IQ… then test them again the day after a traumatic experience… say a parent dying.  I can guarantee they will be ‘dumber’ the next day… how is that any kind of an accurate measure of anything?

Do you have any peer reviewed data on this? What's the average change in IQ? What type of trauma? I bet the IQ is also lower immediately upon awakening. I bet Windows OS slows if you distract it by running something in the background. Come on. You're thinking emotionally. The sky is blue. Earth has gravity. What's the valid point?



As for young children playing with touch screen devices/ interfaces… it makes me shudder.  As the levels of the above graphs rise, so do the levels of obesity, depression and other mental disorders… there is a definite underlying trend/ problem. Our younger generations are not being given a chance to play/ learn to be an individual in a modern human society, they are missing the relevant coping strategies and the lack of social interaction with their peers is reflected by the current trends to be prissy/ easily offended/ vein/ etc. 
It's not a perfect world, but teachers, government, and parents are now making a valiant effort to improve this problem. I'm betting that within a decade children will be considerably healthier and will retain their considerably higher IQ.


(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/9c/63/bf9c6382e8ece85e665e0e78b2d50482.jpg)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on May 09, 2018, 03:23:09 pm
I rest my case.

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 03:27:21 pm
I rest my case.

 :)

Try to be more objective and think less emotional. High IQ people will most likely notice a difference in our recent posts. One is posting emotional strawman arguments. While the other refers to peer reviewed data.

The Klingons vs Spock.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 04:03:30 pm
Looks like there's already a definite decline in both adult and childhood obesity. There's also some evidence of a decrease in child obesity, but it's still difficult to say for certain due to fluctuations. Looks like we won't have to wait ten years. More like 4 to 5 years for a definite decline. :)

Here's some data. I'd like to see data in the U.S. that goes up to at least 2016. I've read that there was a definite decline for a few years, but an increase last year. That's fluctuations for you. It'll probably be 4 to 5 more years before seeing a definite trend. Way to go teachers! At least they're trying to educate children to be healthier.

(https://image.slidesharecdn.com/childobesityslideset2017-170613111611/95/patterns-and-trends-inchild-obesity-june-2017-6-638.jpg?cb=1497352764)


(https://www.foodpolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/Capture-24.png)

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Don Patrick on May 09, 2018, 07:20:22 pm
Quote
Way to go teachers! At least they're trying to educate children to be healthier.
This ought not be the job of teachers. It's typically the person behind the stove who determines the weight of the family.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 07:34:58 pm
Quote
Way to go teachers! At least they're trying to educate children to be healthier.
This ought not be the job of teachers. It's typically the person behind the stove who determines the weight of the family.

It's not the job of teachers to educate children about health?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on May 09, 2018, 08:04:06 pm
Health is a class usually presented in most public schools, basic hygiene, sex-education, disease prevention, etc.
Healthy living/eating is usually taught by parents and controlled by the same.
===============================================================
TO continue:

Merely having a digital device does not make one "smarter" or increase their IQ level.

Much of those devices, especially the portable ones, phones, tablets are responsible for taking people skills of social interaction out of the equation.
People are so enamored by and glued to their devices that they are and have been putting themselves and others at serious risk.
Some have been so busy texting, typing to each other and various social media sites that they have fallen down stails walked into posts, poles, subways, and traffic. Some have even stepped into open manholes and face-slapped signs while "distracted".

Pretty bright aren't they?

The devices do not make people smarter. It enhances their ability to obtain information more quickly than ever before.

Most Public Libraries are not the same large facility full of shelves crammed with books of all kinds. Now we can order any book we need online and have it the next day or two without driving, parking, hunting through that Dewey Decimal Card Catalogue to see if the book you want has been checked out or if it's still on the shelf, waiting in line, driving back home. Only have about 2 - 4 weeks to read the book and return it else pay a fine.
Nope, most libraries are now re-branded as Community Media Centers. Some still have books but also a large number of card readers, CD's, DVD's, Books on Tape, Regular old fashioned Books and social rooms for small children, teens, adults, catering to all likes and needs. Smarter? Not really, but certainly more in keeping with the times and more diverse.

We are smarter in the way we've fashioned tests to make ourselves seem smarter, largely due to these changes.

Some call it "The Dumbing Down of America or society in general" - Let's make the coursework or testing easier so more students pass the classes and we look like we're providing a better standard of education!   

I'd wager the average high school student could not pass an 8th-grade test in 1895 or 1912. BTW, no computers or calculators nor Internet allowed.

Here's one from 1895
http://www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/dictionary/8thgradeexam.htm (http://www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/dictionary/8thgradeexam.htm)

Another one from 1912
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/12/1912-eighth-grade-exam_n_3744163.html (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/12/1912-eighth-grade-exam_n_3744163.html)

Still thinking with your with your smartphone? How smart are you really?

Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on May 09, 2018, 08:39:01 pm
Art, I failed both! 95% of the answers I did not know.....uh oh...time for me to get smarter.....

Using! The NeW iphone NeXUSsssSSSS 7 !

no that's a fake iphone name I made up afaik.

My head slowly rotates downwards, looking into my chest, what am I? That stupid? Or am I?

Others please dip in your results.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 09:24:06 pm
I have no idea how well children would do with older generation tests. I did a quick online search, but was unable to find anything. Although I can tell you there numerous experts on various sites such as quora.com who make it very clear that children nowadays know a lot more than older generations. That should not be of any surprise due to children having access to a world of information on the Internet. Anyhow, lets not confuse knowledge with IQ.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 09:38:38 pm
One thing I just learned is that the GED exam became significantly more difficult in 2014. Of course a lot of people complained about it. Also, you now have to have basic computer skills.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on May 09, 2018, 11:21:14 pm
@unreality

I’ve actually avoided posting for the last week or so, hoping that your attitude toward me would change for the better, if you were given more breathing space… I see I was in err.

Quote
Try to be more objective and think less emotional.

What about my post exactly did you take as being the emotionality?  What gives you the right to give me personal advice on how I post? Are you superior in some way? This is being personal.

Quote
High IQ people will most likely notice a difference in our recent posts.

I'm glad you changed 'your' too 'our'.  Meaning who? And what exactly?

Quote
One is posting emotional strawman arguments.

When someone starts paragraphs with ‘I think’ or ‘in my opinion’ most people would usually construe the post to be a personal opinion, are you saying I’m not allowed to post a personal opinion? And again… why the emotional?

Quote
While the other refers to peer reviewed data.

Why do I need to site peer reviewed data for a personal opinion? Have the forum rules changed and you are now personally policing my posts?

Quote
The Klingons vs Spock.

Again personal.  Explain?

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 09, 2018, 11:27:28 pm
Quote
I can tell you there numerous experts on various sites such as quora.com who make it very clear that children nowadays know a lot more than older generations.

Some things are less useful as time goes on and get forgotten... older people may know just as much stuff but it's perhaps older, less useful or not used anymore. I may know more about technology than my Dad, but my Dad knows more about other things, especially DIY.

I've taught both my parents how to use the internet and computers, they are doing great. Silver surfers may surprise you and my Mum finds out things about her tablet that I have not discovered (we both have the same one).

It pays not to underestimate people based on age.

On the subject of exams I've heard people say that they have become easier in the UK... and a lot of people laugh at IQ tests compared to real world problems.

Korrelan makes some good points about how you are treating him, I suggest you have a think about them.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: unreality on May 09, 2018, 11:48:22 pm
Wow, hmm. I guess that I'm just used to posting at academic science forums where nearly all users value actual peer reviewed data over emotional hunches. On that note, I'll step backwards out of the building to the closest exit. This is where the gang usually groups together for some final words of support. :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 09, 2018, 11:50:48 pm
I can arrange it so you are not a member anymore if you like ?
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 09, 2018, 11:53:12 pm
As usual you completely ignore anyone else's opinions and fail to counter anyone's argument.

I'm giving you a weeks holiday - try to get out more and maybe learn how to make some friends.

Oh dear there goes me and my emotions  :P
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 09, 2018, 11:55:21 pm
Unreality has been given a weeks holiday to have a think about his attitude.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Korrelan on May 09, 2018, 11:57:40 pm
Quote
Wow, hmm.

I grow tired of your childish games.

Quote
where nearly all users value actual peer reviewed data over emotional hunches.

See... there you go with the 'emotional' again. Explain your self.

Quote
This is where the gang usually groups together for some final words of support.

Seriously? Your still trying that approach?

There is no reason why we shouldn't get along, ask anyone on this forum, I'm a fairly nice kinda guy.

You made the quoted comments in my previous post... now explain them please.

 :)

Oh! Missed some posts whilst typing lol.

 :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 09, 2018, 11:59:04 pm
He can now deign to explain himself in a week's time.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on May 10, 2018, 12:18:54 am
Thanks Freddy. Like any teenager he's just probing boundaries to see what he can get away with. You just have to make sure to set them.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 10, 2018, 12:22:46 am
No problem.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on May 10, 2018, 03:18:52 am
" I'll admit that I could not pass that test, but I have a doctorate in computer science. Remember what Ford said? He said that he doesn't know a lot of things but he has lots of employees who can tell him what he needs to know. Today, if someone knows how to use search engines, they could pass the test 100%
Carson, is babbling moron. He dribbles in a voice that could put people to sleep. Why so many RepubliCANTS love him and Trump is beyond my capabilities to fathom. "

" This whole line of "reasoning" is ridiculous. Yeah, I have no idea what a "rod" or a "bushel" is. So what? I don't need this knowledge, and the fact that a farmer's kid did a hundred years ago did proves nothing. That's like saying that a 4 year old is smarter than a Nobel Laureate because the 4 year old knows his mommy's name and the Nobel Laureate doesn't know the 4 year kid's mother's name. It's trivial to find a piece of trivia that the smartest person in the world doesn't know and the dumbest one does. It's sad that Carson thinks that proves something. "

This brings me back to my roots...know only the most important knowledge (AI/reason to live/life)...have employees...and use Google.

8th Grade Exam Answers shh! hehe:
http://www.teaching-and-technology.com/blog/255/answers-to-the-1895-8th-grade-exam/
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on May 10, 2018, 12:51:16 pm
There is a difference between stating your opinion and telling other people what to think.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on May 10, 2018, 02:59:13 pm
@ Lock (et. al.),

This is a public forum for all things related to A.I., robotics, Sci-Fi, tech-oriented projects, programming, Chatbots, etc., etc. It is NOT a forum to be used to voice your Political, Religion, Gender, Lifestyle or to slander anyone else's opinion or views.

Do keep your Personal Political and/or Religious views to yourself as you might be stepping on other's toes and causing tears in the fabric of friendship!
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 10, 2018, 05:35:37 pm
There is a difference between stating your opinion and telling other people what to think.

I'm not sure what direction this is aimed Ivan ?

Just for the record, I don't think anyone is telling Unreality what to think - to me it's quite the opposite. Thus far between us and Unreal the majority of traffic has been one way, along with many of his put downs...
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on May 10, 2018, 06:35:37 pm
There is a difference between stating your opinion and telling other people what to think.

I'm not sure what direction this is aimed Ivan ?

Just for the record, I don't think anyone is telling Unreality what to think - to me it's quite the opposite. Thus far between us and Unreal the majority of traffic has been one way, along with many of his put downs...

Oh, Freddy, you got me wrong. I'm not taking sides on persons. Anyone can be wrong. I'm taking sides on deeds.

I find you as a calm, smart person that brings better decisions than me, and if you think it is a good thing for the community to make someone take a short break, I stand by you, by all means, even if it was me that has to gather his thoughts. We all want a friendly community.

As for what I meant by my short comment, it is an universal thought, and I was hoping that sides would recognize themselves from what I wrote. In my humble opinion, in this concrete situation, Unreal was trying to tell Korrelan what to think.

Regardless of my recent comment (http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13051.msg52671#msg52671) in another thread, where, on another occasion, I tried to point out that we should also give Unreal opportunity to express his dreams (even if they aren't corroborated by solid facts), I still think you are doing a great job with this site, and I'd like to encourage you to keep up the good job. I know we aren't sometimes an easy herd to get around, but you seem to manage, more or less, to keep your head calm. A lot of people lack that quality, and that quality is required to hold together a site like this one.

As long as we try, there's nothing that can keep us from making this community even better. We have each others for a reference, when the time comes for tuff decisions. I just hope I'll be able to keep up with bars set so high.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on May 10, 2018, 08:54:43 pm
btw my reply was quoting someone else from a site
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Freddy on May 10, 2018, 10:47:26 pm
@Lock, I wondered... it made sense though, in context with the thread.

@Ivan, thank you for clarifying and for the words of support. :)

You always do a good job of summing up where things are going wrong - it helps me see things I may not.

I've never claimed to be an angel and I am sure I have upset people myself, but when you see something needs doing you have to bite the bullet. It's not something I enjoy doing.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on May 10, 2018, 11:27:36 pm
Leaders can't be angels, and someone has to be a leader. I think that's the way things function on the Earth.

Besides, angels are mostly boring, it is good to show some attitude. It is an error prone process, but Girls seem to like it.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: infurl on May 10, 2018, 11:45:18 pm
Besides, angels are mostly boring, it is good to show some attitude. Girls like it.

Every girl wants a bad boy who is only good for her, and
every boy wants a good girl who is only bad for him.

Genes suck.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: LOCKSUIT on May 10, 2018, 11:55:56 pm
Quote
Every girl wants a bad boy who is only good for her, and
every boy wants a good girl who is only bad for him.

Genes suck.

Every boy? Every girl? :)
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ivan.moony on May 10, 2018, 11:58:10 pm
Every girl wants a bad boy who is only good for her, and
every boy wants a good girl who is only bad for him.

I'd like to have a machine that is good to everyone. In cases it can't do it, it does nothing.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: Art on May 11, 2018, 02:25:19 pm
When I was little, my Grandmother would always say, "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all."

Smart people back then. O0
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ruebot on September 06, 2018, 07:45:47 am
People think Mac and Unix are safe. No they're not! Several years ago I was scanning through Mac OS security vulnerability board. Geez they have more vulnerability fixes per month than Windows. Unix community is also busy addressing vulnerabilities.

I have 8 laptops, 6 are currently running FreeBSD and the other 2 OpenBSD. I have had Solaris and OpenIndiana boxen, too, but prefer BSD for everyday general desktop activities. One is a Thinkpad X61 running FreeBSD that serves as my dedicated .mp3 player.

My site for Demonica is a sub-domain for my main site where I have a beginners tutorial on Building A FreeBSD Desktop From Scratch that has been featured in two different articles on freebsdnews.com, Window Manager and Desktop Environment screenshots, and wallpapers. I won't spam it, just remove her name and the trailing dot to get there

FreeBSD is primarily used a server and OpenBSD is known as the "most secure" OS. There is a list of business and ISP's that use FreeBSD on their home site.

Research how many vulnerabilities there have been for the FreeBSD base system compared to Linux. The base system and a terminal is what you get with a vanilla FreeBSD install, no 3rd party programs like browsers. And everybody knows OpenBSD has had "Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!"

When I switched to cable they only provided a pass-thru modem, no router, so I ran my laptops directly facing the internet for months without a second thought or care in the world. I only eventually got a router so I could run more than one machine online at a time.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: DemonRaven on September 27, 2018, 12:37:52 am
I have been kicking around since 2002 and some of the AI community has been since 1960 or earlier. I am not real worried about anyone cracking the singularity code. Chatbots still need updating.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: ranch vermin on September 27, 2018, 01:59:13 am
No this is definitely a problem.  one way you should keep secrets is dont boast about your stuff or youll get it stolen off you.
Title: Re: Caution to AI coders
Post by: DemonRaven on September 28, 2018, 02:42:50 am
No this is definitely a problem.  one way you should keep secrets is dont boast about your stuff or youll get it stolen off you.
I am strictly a amateur. I don't really have anything to steal. I bounce around to much from one project to the next. As soon as I satisfy my curiously about how something works it becomes boring to me so I have a hard time specializing/completing training in any one subject. I end up knowing a little bit about a lot of things but not enough about any one thing.