Ai Dreams Forum

Software & Hardware => General Hardware Talk => Topic started by: ranch vermin on August 20, 2018, 07:48:41 am

Title: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 20, 2018, 07:48:41 am
So!
How do I start to explain this!  Im very frustrated.
 
(https://scontent.fper7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39585367_746912725656787_6418881280171048960_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=88b1a34b43532dce88375a3b7c096c8f&oe=5C37B533)

Ive been having a problems ALONG time now!!!    And the electronics is NOT making sense!
So this circuit is supposed to be having the capacitor constantly neutralize through a resistor.   if its neutralizing FASTER than its charging, it should pass current indefinitely,  but its acting as if its not even discharging at all!
If the charge is slightly faster than the discharge, then it should at least slow it down as it fills.

Im going elsewhere with this problem as well,   im getting to the bottom of this CRAP.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 20, 2018, 08:46:05 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ATv_GlVA9w&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: HS on August 20, 2018, 09:33:57 am
It is discharging, but in the same direction as you charged it. The top diode is not involved then. It wouldn't go the opposite direction than you charged it. The side introduced to new electrons first got more charged because the resistor made a voltage gap. Right?
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 20, 2018, 11:30:55 am
Ha! thanks for a quick stab!


Not sure... I can give u a hint tho -> Current goes both ways over the capacitor line, inside the loop,  but its the same everywhere else.  (I know it for a fact im fairly positive on... but this doesnt make sense to me.)

Ive got some more crazy info, with a slightly different circuit - and i dont understand my 0 amps over the capacitor!!!  it should be reacting as if it wasnt there and just pumping amps through, because of the fork stopping half the charge, and the discharge loop giving 100%,  through the same amount of resistors,  the discharge should be heavier than the charge discounting the capacitor being there.

But no,  im getting no charge at all through the tester diodes.    Doesnt make sense!

(https://scontent.fper7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39406744_747045448976848_4353023322422771712_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e7fbce6d29e8000bfdfc20acd866ae34&oe=5BF7572C)
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 20, 2018, 01:10:22 pm
better clearer video of the situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA05WlTDVpQ&feature=youtu.be
Title: Something really really really REALLY crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 20, 2018, 02:33:22 pm
Well, the title of this thread says something. Something crazy is going on.

Ok the charge is coming in, going out, one is fast, one is faster (or slow), but what about the amount? For example leggy can lift very slowly but the amount it hits your but is really strong...
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: HS on August 20, 2018, 08:27:21 pm
I'm just not seeing the reason for it to discharge through the top diode. It should charge, that's fine, but then what makes the voltage drop so the charge can flow out again?
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: spydaz on August 20, 2018, 10:15:07 pm
the little diode setup (rectification circuit) is switching current on/off ;

therefore the capacitor is getting no chance to charge perhaps change the Farads of the capacitor ..... allowing for the capacitor to charge quicker therefore dissipate its energy..

A lot of unnecessary diodes here...

MAYBE!
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 20, 2018, 11:58:11 pm
Is your power supply DC?  If I may presume that your plus is "VCC" and your minus is "Ground," there's a constant voltage drop of VCC across your resistor/capacitor pair.

Your capacitor will charge until it is holding enough to create a potential of VCC* between the plates. Once it's charged, it will just sit there -- I do not expect it to discharge.  Your power supply is still, as it were, exerting "pressure" on it.  No more charge will go in (because it's "full"), but nothing will come out either. 

*Minus a bit for the requisite voltage drop across the bottom diode

Current (driven by your power supply) will continue to flow through the resistor, but you will not see anything through the diodes once the capacitor is charged (which may be happening within a fraction of a second).

Imagine it like a water tank filling up if that helps you.

Now, if you switch the power supply off, then you should see a brief current surge through the top diode as charge flows from the positive side of the capacitor around the loop to the negative side.

EDIT: All these comments are based on your first circuit as drawn in your initial post.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 21, 2018, 01:45:56 am
Regarding your second example:

1. The two branches of your fork are not going to carry the same current.  As your capacitor charges, current through the branch containing the capacitor will decrease.  When the capacitor is fully charged, that current will drop to zero.  100% of the current will be going through the branch containing the single LED.  Imagine the battery pumping out charge like a water hydrant; no more charge can fit in the capacitor, so it all "overflows" down the other branch.  The cap will not be continuously discharging, either.

2. It is important to remember that an LED cannot turn on unless the voltage on its input side is X Volts higher than the voltage on its output side.  No voltage drop means nothing to push the electrons through the diode.  (X = 0.7 is a good rule of thumb, iirc.)  The voltage drop across your single LED branch must be at least X, so the drop across the capacitor branch is also at least X.  But!  In the capacitor branch, not all of that drop is across the pair of diodes!  Vdiodes = X - Vcapacitor.  As the capacitor charges, Vcapacitor gets bigger, until Vdiodes is too small to turn one of the diodes on.  The shut-down diode blocks further current flow through that branch.  (The other diode doesn't have a prayer of lighting up, because the voltage difference across it is *negative.*)

In short, what you're actually seeing happen in the video makes sense to me.  Capacitors block DC current.  If you want them to experience a charge/discharge cycle then your input voltage needs to oscillate.  A capacitor doesn't charge and discharge simultaneously; at any given time, you should think of it as doing one or the other (or else just sitting there at a constant level of charge).
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 21, 2018, 03:52:40 am
Thanks for all the help everyone.

Writer of minds,  u sound like u know electronics well!
Yes, ur right about the capacitor filling up,  but it has a loop which is connecting its annode and cathode,  so it should be constantly discharging,  so it should never even get to full.

It doesnt make sense to me.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 21, 2018, 04:38:13 am
Just because there's a path connecting the two terminals of the capacitor, does not mean the capacitor is going to discharge through that path.  You can only have a net flow of charge in one direction at a time!  If the capacitor is charging (current flowing into the positive terminal and out of the negative terminal), it cannot simultaneously be discharging (which would require current flowing into the negative terminal and out of the positive terminal).

I'll try to clarify with the water analogy.  Imagine you have water flowing down (being pushed by a pump) into a tee that connects to 1) a stretchy balloon and 2) a pipe.  At the tee the water stream splits; some of it goes into the balloon, and some of it goes down the pipe.

When the water falls into the balloon, is any of it going to come back out and go down the pipe instead?  No; it can't get back out, because more, new water is pushing into the balloon every second.  The flow only goes one direction at a time.

So will the balloon eventually fill up?  Yes.  If you stretch it enough, the pressure imposed by the walls of the balloon will equal the pressure exerted by the pump, and no more water will enter the balloon.

Will any water come back out of the balloon now?  No.  There's still water coming down from above and entering the pipe.  The pressure it exerts will keep all the water in the balloon.

But what if you turn the pump off?  Now there's no external pressure holding the water in the balloon, and the balloon wants to shrink, so it will push the water out of itself and down the pipe.

The balloon is your capacitor, the pipe is your resistor/diode/load/whatever, and the pump is your battery.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 21, 2018, 05:02:26 am
Im reading and listening WriterofMinds, what u say makes sense...  I definitely agree on the t-fork your talking about.
But I still think im right about whats happening to me not making sense!

This is getting too complicated to explain...

(https://scontent.fper7-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39753244_747906478890745_7969864717457948672_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=a4ed656c3c7928e0a9bea2207ea33953&oe=5BFF26BE)

In my thinking a single balloon isnt a perfect analogy to an electrical capacitor that has 2 connections, an anode and a cathode,  an electrical capacitor is better said (in my thinking) two balloons pressed into each other and the membrane in the middle pushing side b out when side a has pressure applied to it.   I think its a correct analogy as long as you both suck and blow at the same time, and its a perfect vacuum,  then I think its the same as electricity.

And in my setup its as if there is a resistored leak from side b to side a - So it should always be releasing back to the central position a certain degree.
[EDIT] sorry i meant from a, to b, not b to a. [/EDIT]

So im not convinced, but my analogy might not be correct, as well....  ive got it sitting on my desk till I work it out.

Im going to go to the heavenly courts and complain about this to the high magistrates.  :knuppel2:

Either that or my components are dodgy. :)
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 21, 2018, 05:29:57 am
Quote
And in my setup its as if there is a resistored leak from side b to side a - So it should always be releasing back to the central position a certain degree.

No.

The pipe is already full of water that is being pushed from A to B by the pump.  So even though the pipe is there, nothing can "leak" back from B to A -- it's blocked by all the water flowing the other way!  Once again, you can't have current flowing opposite directions in the same wire or component at the same time.  In your two-balloon version, any water that comes out of Balloon B is going to flow out the spout on the right.

Here's another way you know that no current is going to "leak" from B to A: the A side of the resistor is at a higher voltage than the B side (because it's closer to the positive terminal of your battery).  Current doesn't flow "uphill."

Finally, if you did somehow manage to get current to flow through the resistor in that direction, all it would do is charge the capacitor faster!
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 21, 2018, 05:40:15 am
Yes, thats true but I actually meant the other way, from a to b. (sorry for confusing)  the current for the discharge goes the same way as the t-junction bypass current through the loop. So im saying the amount of water bypassing, actually is a complex number involving the neutralization of the capacitor,  plus the diverting current.   But the capacitor seems to just block off and stay blocked off.  doesnt make sense!
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 21, 2018, 05:58:02 am
One last thing,  If I bypass the capacitor (touch its legs together)  the led goes on.   when the capacitor is in the circuit,  then no led.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 21, 2018, 06:17:29 am
GEEZE!!!   All I added was a tad more resistance on the loop and it started working!!!

So at the fork -  I added a fair bit more resistance, then it started discharging,  but maybe its always discharging,  but its as if - if the discharge is too high, i get no reading.     

So u might be right about the current going back on itself, is deluminating the led -  and it doesnt matter if i have back to back diodes, it still cuts it off.

My theory said both leds should be full power,   but it may be the case that the current is 0 there,  so both leds are OFF.  instead...
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 23, 2018, 04:19:29 pm
But, why build your own circuit, when a computer/processor can run ANY program (as far as I'm aware of) ? Why not just code up your algorithm and run it? Why make your own Compute-or?

Asking this reminds me of (think "how is it?") when Art said people like to build humanoid robots just cus for just that reason! Yes I knew that btw lol. Of course not just that reason though also.

I also have to wonder here, why do products have circuit chips? I guess a computer is too expensive for them? For example my mom's night light in my (bathroom) has a circuit board, CD players do, etc.

Then again why does a computer have a circuit board if it has a processor? WTH??? Someone inform me lol. I've learned about processors, but not motherboard...
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ivan.moony on August 23, 2018, 04:56:01 pm
I think that a motherboard is a set of interfaces between peripherals and the main processor.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 23, 2018, 04:58:52 pm
Makes sense.

Oh, is ranch making circuit boards for the motors?... Or because it must be in a robot? He'd have to make a whole computer though then for the latter one...makes no sense to me...
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 23, 2018, 05:30:09 pm
Yes, a processor can run any program that is supported by its instruction set. But all a program amounts to is "receive digital inputs and produce digital outputs." There are many other tasks that are not about converting digital input into digital output, and thus have nothing to do with running programs. Examples:

*Supplying/regulating/converting power
*Clock signal generation
*Converting an analog value to a digital value, or a digital value to an analog value
*Motor control (a digital output generally cannot drive a motor by itself!)
*Analog signal manipulation
*Radio wave reception/transmission

I'm not sure what Ranch is building here, but I'm pretty sure it is not a computing element.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 23, 2018, 07:21:56 pm
AI might be able to make computation that transmits radio waves, we'd have to keep it in a metal cage like a baby lol.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: spydaz on August 23, 2018, 10:07:41 pm
Yes, a processor can run any program that is supported by its instruction set. But all a program amounts to is "receive digital inputs and produce digital outputs." There are many other tasks that are not about converting digital input into digital output, and thus have nothing to do with running programs. Examples:

*Supplying/regulating/converting power
*Clock signal generation
*Converting an analog value to a digital value, or a digital value to an analog value
*Motor control (a digital output generally cannot drive a motor by itself!)
*Analog signal manipulation
*Radio wave reception/transmission

I'm not sure what Ranch is building here, but I'm pretty sure it is not a computing element.

I do remember using  lot of logic gates as an input / output interface....(op amps) or ( bistables etc)  / clock / "Shift registers as memory addresses", the programmable processor (PIC) ....  remembering it well now .... data buses... to build my first computer from (component electronics) ... great project!

The computer design has not really changed much accept for more memory / more processing / faster clocks / better input output ports etc....


Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 24, 2018, 03:49:26 am
This little piece of plumbing is for an oscillator for my motor controller h-bridge - getting the signal from the computer and turning it into power for the arm motors.
Why would I need an oscillator?  Because im using capacitors to make the current blockers for the h-bridge, and i need a small cycle to do it.

Ive had some more success with this thing - but i think ill let it rest a while,  just its VERY confusing!!!  And it seems like the electronics is playing tricks on my mind,  programming does as well, but this is worse!

Thanks for the help everyone,  I dont think ill post again until i feel the real need to do it,  ill just do it myself.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: Korrelan on August 24, 2018, 08:46:18 am
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ne555+timer&oq=ne555&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.6590j0j7&client=ms-android-motorola-rev2&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

 :)
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 24, 2018, 10:28:55 am
Yes korrelan is right, use already made parts like the ne555 timer...
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 25, 2018, 10:38:03 am
yes ur right, but if i use that, what did i learn?

Also, id be dependant on buying them,  and id be at a loss.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 25, 2018, 02:06:15 pm
there're cheap

you're trying to reinvent the wheel

you take a  little from here and a little from here and step back and see the whole picture ......you said this yourself

your real goal is not this...its  the ai / robot

wait a minute WOM........computers can simulate physics, so why not analog, 555 timer, brains, etc - they can...
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 25, 2018, 03:58:36 pm
 :tickedoff:
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 25, 2018, 05:10:01 pm
Quote
wait a minute WOM........computers can simulate physics, so why not analog, 555 timer, brains, etc - they can...

You basically just said, "I can imagine any kind of food in the world, so why should I bother ever eating?"  Simulation is not reality.  Imagining (simulating in your brain) eating a piece of bread, will not actually nourish your body.  Just because your processor can simulate how a high-voltage power supply circuit would behave, does not mean the processor is physically capable of outputting 100 Volts!

Digital elements can mimic analog -- to a certain level of approximation.  The simulation will never be perfectly like the real thing.  Whether certain things are done in digital (inside a processor) or analog (in other circuitry) is a design choice, because each realm has its limits.  Sometimes processing a signal in the digital realm is less efficient, more difficult, etc.

A processor needs help from other kinds of circuits before it can even turn on.  It can't simulate its own power supply.  It can't simulate its own clock generator.  Because unless you have power and clock first, your processor is helpless.

Let me nudge you in the direction of doing some general reading about electronics and computers before you ask more questions in this vein.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: ranch vermin on August 25, 2018, 06:24:58 pm
Let me nudge you in the direction of doing some general reading about electronics and computers before you ask more questions in this vein.

I guess your talking to me there,  yes back to study i go.
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: LOCKSUIT on August 25, 2018, 09:38:57 pm
lol ranch she is talking to me at the end...


"Just because your processor can simulate how a high-voltage power supply circuit would behave, does not mean the processor is physically capable of outputting 100 Volts!"

Woh hoh ho! You got me there! What was I thinking lol...You can simulate a transformer, but no transformer! WTF!

Ok I can't be THAT stupid, somethins up. What I was thinking is, ranch wants to get his AI and motors to work, rights, so if he needed a timer then well, he can simulate one and get the output from the processor, in theory. Maybe even download the code. Fairly simple. Same for analog and brains. But I didn't say transformer! Lol.

So I was right then...

However.... If he ran it in a simulation then.........hehe TRANSFORMER!
Title: Re: Something crazy is happening to me with my work
Post by: WriterOfMinds on August 26, 2018, 07:25:59 am
Okay Locksuit, I may have misunderstood you.  At the beginning you seemed to be wondering why any type of circuit besides a processor had a reason for existing, so I thought you were asking, "but why don't we just simulate everything?"

My point about analog remains valid; sometimes there are good reasons for having real analog components, instead of trying to simulate changes to the analog signal.  Also, if you're going to turn digital (from the processor) into real analog, you need a digital-to-analog converter (DAC) circuit.  A processor might come with some of these inside its chip, but there are always a limited number of them.  There are times when it might make more sense to do things in analog to begin with, than to do them inside the processor and add a ton of DACs.

You can get a processor to produce an oscillator/timer output, like that of the 555 Timer.  However, there are still good reasons to use a plain old oscillator circuit, sometimes.

* Your processor needs an oscillator input (for its clock signal) before it can produce oscillator outputs.  So, you need an oscillator no matter what.  (Unless you get a processor that has an "internal oscillator," which means you get the processor and its clock generator in the same chip.)
* Processors have to be programmed.  If you want to get an oscillating signal quickly, without messing with code and the process of loading it on the processor, you may find the oscillator circuit is easier to deal with.
* Processors only run so fast ... perhaps more importantly, they only have so many output pins ... if your processor is doing many other things in your system, such that it is "too busy" to generate all the timer signals you need, you might want to outsource that work to a simpler chip.
* Maybe your system is so simple that it doesn't even need a processor.  In that case, why have a processor if a 555 timer will do the job?