Ai Dreams Forum

AI Dreams => General Chat => Topic started by: Freddy on December 05, 2018, 09:41:18 am

Title: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Freddy on December 05, 2018, 09:41:18 am
Okay more animal fun, hopefully this is new this time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=1DoWdHOtlrk

Quote
It has eight arms, three hearts — and a plan. Scientists aren’t sure how the cephalopods got to be so intelligent.

To demonstrate how smart an octopus can be, Piero Amodio points to a YouTube video. It shows an octopus pulling two halves of a coconut shell together to hide inside. Later the animal stacks the shells together like nesting bowls — and carts them away.

“It suggests the octopus is carrying these tools around because it has some understanding they may be useful in the future,” said Mr. Amodio, a graduate student studying animal intelligence at the University of Cambridge in Britain.

I liked this too:

Quote
“We can’t take for granted that there’s just one way to intelligence,” Mr. Amodio said. “There could be different paths.”

Full article here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/30/science/animal-intelligence-octopus-cephalopods.html
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: ivan.moony on December 05, 2018, 10:05:43 am
Here and there I encounter articles that say how octopus DNA is not from this planet. Not sure about that, but taking octopus appearance into account, it really differs from all other animals in a big extent. Animals usually share more common properties like four legs and similar things.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 05, 2018, 10:24:58 am
It's time to have a competition! Let's make AI Creatures/aliens!! Now we know they can control multiple limbs. Big, scary, superpowered, crazy alien beings woho. Just joking, for now.

Yep, it's smart, now I know it too has a frontal cortex, it understands the world - thinks about sequences/plans. It resolves around thinking about objects and actions, sequences of them. It's just like us. Poor thing. This is not some major other type of intelligence, it is planning sequences. Hence why there is "so many things it/we do, each different". There's more to the puzzle though, but they aid to it.

My dog learned all on its own to knock at the door after peeing pooping time. He'd come to the door once done, scratch, wait 12 seconds or so, scratch again, until enough scratching and resorts to now barking, with again a couple-of-second pause. He'd get his bed using mouth and drag it to the back of the kitchen, then suck on it. It's at every place you look, all their actions...there's countless to say.

Most notably was the time I was crying and his eyes opened wide and he came over to my feet and sat on them in a curled up ball and stayed there facing outwards to comfort me, that's crazy thoughtful, clearly frontal cortex thinking.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 05, 2018, 01:44:32 pm
Surprisingly, dogs do not pass the self-awareness test. Dogs are highly intelligent, extremely social, and fit right in with human households, even to the extent of voluntarily learning to recognize the meaning of human words.

Taken from:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201705/are-dogs-self-aware (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-human-beast/201705/are-dogs-self-aware)
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 06, 2018, 05:24:52 pm
This video shows frontal cortex planning. We're capable of anything, and everything, as she says. Rockets, anything...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KSOMA3QBU0

Also notice the analogies in the lyrics, etc.

Their cooperation is amazing too, it gives motivation. Laziness will be a thing of the past.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 06, 2018, 10:03:07 pm
Sorry Lock, but if anything, humanity will become even lazier than they already are and will continue to do so as more technology brings with it, more convenience.

Look around you. Go to the supermarkets. Meals are heat & eat. Buy a "kit" for making stew (almost like homemade). Everything is pre-cut & pre-measured. Just put it in a pot and follow directions. Ordering anything and everything online! You don't have to go to the brick & mortar storefronts any longer. Shop from your home. We have come a very long way since plowing fields with a mule and getting up to turn the black & white TV channels, chopping wood and building a fire in a cookstove in order to prepare a meal.

Not to say that conveniences are necessarily bad but we, as responsible individuals should tailor our individual needs and activities that best suit us.
If you've ever watched that movie, Wall-E, then you witnessed how complacent and out of shape, the passengers/citizens on board had become. Just worth a mention.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Hopefully Something on December 07, 2018, 03:33:37 am
Quote from: LOCKSUIT
This video shows frontal cortex planning. We're capable of anything, and everything, as she says. Rockets, anything...

You could say that we clearly aren't capable of anything, obviously we have limits just like every other animal. We would not look at any other animals and say "These [insert names] are capable of anything." Because we are better at some things we can have perspective on, say, a duck's computer building skills. We know ducks can't think along those lines. In the same way, an alien observing a human would know the limits of the human. It would go,
"Humans obviously can't do @#$%@#%^#$% no matter how hard they think. Yes, sure they notice and use the constituents, (twitter,emails,sums) but the poor bastards can't get any use from raising percents to the power of hashtags and dollar signs. Oh, I envy them, they don't have to worry about life."
Or maybe there's a fundamental kind of intellectual singularity. If by chance, evolution nudges you up to it, you do actually become capable of anything. Once a species becomes capable of self improvement, maybe the boundaries of possibility can keep expanding indefinitely.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: 8pla.net on December 07, 2018, 03:58:52 am
Amazing Octopus - Most Intelligent Animal on Earth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G6eH1KDl0s
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 07, 2018, 04:48:26 am
Laziness is improving, but I said in the future it won't in a Greater sense because when artificial machines come we will be not only enjoying to the hills but also nano level will be much more 'moving' and thinking (very 'active future'), machines can be made to do the chores dey gotta do, 'like' things they/we may fear naively, cooperate together more and willingly.

Never said able, but capable! The frontal cortex can think about anything, like - even if its all high level with few details on how - a superorgnism holding suns that we live in that can form any tool at fast speeds.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Hopefully Something on December 07, 2018, 07:29:48 am
Anything? Really? I'm just not sure...
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 07, 2018, 09:44:38 am
The giant, purple, girl nebula full of nano oxes eating sun core over fruits explodes wind up to a mom bird crowing all pink girl laptops to haters violining the gust up a notch yum but it got better, the blue cave started.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 07, 2018, 12:58:39 pm
What?
Lock...was that paragraph something that you ran through one of those computer Haiku programs? You know, the ones that take different subjects, verbs, adjectives then attempts to produce some kind of "almost discernable English" output.

That was funny! O0
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 07, 2018, 01:29:44 pm
No, I wrote it. The blue calf started the show, it wouldn't increase speed during earthquakes full of cream cheese burgers.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 07, 2018, 04:32:50 pm
Umm... You did take your meds today right?  :2funny:
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 07, 2018, 06:12:45 pm
I was showing Hopefully Something that we can think of anything.......detailed or summarized, it's all there...........God/universe
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 07, 2018, 09:10:45 pm
Good examples! I was, of course, joking about the meds but you knew that,

God/universe?
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 08, 2018, 04:55:44 am
God/universe as in something complex I can say without the details.....like saying "nuclear plant".....you can superresolution it lots.....nuclear plant that has workers.......nuclear plant in US with a large room holding a metal object that has workers......etc

My point was we can say basically anything, even complex things like nebula with a white pony with a yellow curtain blind 5 feet away, and leave out details or not. Earth, god, ants, the ant that was red yesterday with a little triangle shaped neck and back roof top.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Hopefully Something on December 08, 2018, 08:15:57 am
Sure, we can have the concept of everything, we call it universe. That's pretty wild and an amazing ability. But it doesn't mean we can think of anything. Just means we can create an imaginary box around the whole concept of existence.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 08, 2018, 09:54:02 am
What can't we think of? If you can say it, then you can think it...
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Korrelan on December 08, 2018, 11:28:22 am
Quote
I was showing Hopefully Something that we can think of anything.

Nope we can’t… we can only say/ think of ideas/ concepts that we have experience of. 

I agree we can easily wax lyrical combining diverse concepts/ words but they basically mean nothing, so what’s the point?  They are not premonitions or even ideas about future technologies… just gobbledegook. It’s not ‘what’ we want to achieve, it’s… ‘how’ we achieve it that’s important/ required.

Indeed the human race is probably capable of anything/ everything, but only if given an infinite time frame… the human race does not have an infinite time frame.

If all you require is a personal utopia then I would suggest VR and a few I.V. lines lol.

Most of our advances these days are already achieved with the help of machines, we are currently using them as tools to enhance our intellects but they will of course one day take over all aspects of our technological development.

Anyway; Octopuses… three hearts, blue blood, nine brains… are fascinating creatures. 

They only have 500 million ish neurons and yet they seem to show a high level of intelligence, to me the question is how/ why?

A clue is the fact that a severed arm can still crawl on its own and even pick up food; this hints that the distributed nervous system is actually functioning as separate entities with a top down/ bottom up schema.  Each limb has a separate brain, and each sucker has its own ganglion along with thousands of neurons that can sense the environment, touch, taste, etc.

It’s seems to function like the CEO of a company with eight branch managers.  The CEO makes all the big decisions, states the direction and operation of the company and the managers are quite capable of operating without the guidance of the CEO.  The branch managers are skilled and proficient at their jobs and the CEO doesn’t need to know how they achieve their objectives, they just need to follow orders and report back progress… I suppose it’s a type of swarm intelligence.

 :)
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 08, 2018, 02:47:49 pm
A perfect example of "Networking" on a more natural scale!  O0
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 08, 2018, 02:51:03 pm
Lock is octopus .... they code my command....and report back....

500 million...........

Korrrr, forget octopuses, cats have less neurons and are, ahem, enough said!

"cats have about 300 million neurons, whereas dogs have about 160 million"
"cats have 750M neurons"
"Dogs have 2B neurons"

Cats/dogs have any where from 160M-2B neurons, nonetheless we have seen them in action. The emotional intelligence is strong. Cats understand the world tons as in object>verb>object>verb language, monkeys do too.

Also I believe intelligence doesn't magically come with brain size, it scales...whatever brings the world of tomorrow knows how to do it, hopefully.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Korrelan on December 08, 2018, 11:55:37 pm
Quote
Korrrr, forget octopuses, cats have less neurons and are, ahem, enough said!

Octopuses are important because they are part of the puzzle; they give clues to what generates intelligence, and the types of neural structures that can support intelligence.

As neural design goes… an octopus is a half way point between mammals and swarm intelligence like ants/ termites.

We aren’t trying to figure out which is the smartest, we are looking for insights into what creates/ drives intelligence. 

The goal is not to create a super human level intelligence; the goal is to understand how intelligence arises, the mechanisms and structures involved… it’s the understanding of ‘how’ that’s key… all you need is something that has 0.01% of human intelligence or even 0.0001%.

So long as it’s scaleable you have solved the AGI/ ASI problem.

 :)

Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: ivan.moony on December 09, 2018, 12:50:14 am
As neural design goes… an octopus is a half way point between mammals and swarm intelligence like ants/ termites.

What you are basically saying implies a possibility that an octopus is a multiple number of organisms in one. If that's right, I wonder does every instance has its own will.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Hopefully Something on December 09, 2018, 02:56:07 am
As neural design goes… an octopus is a half way point between mammals and swarm intelligence like ants/ termites.

What you are basically saying implies a possibility that an octopus is a multiple number of organisms in one. If that's right, I wonder does every instance has its own will.

Imagining being an octopus... ...sounds like being conjoined octuplets or having multiple personality disorder. But they make it work! Seems like biological intelligence is a very flexible robust system, many roads to Rome, sometimes you gotta have a discussion with your arm, whatever works.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: LOCKSUIT on December 09, 2018, 03:07:17 am
Well, dogs/cats/octopuses don't often pass down to their kids, or even make much tools except for beds/traps/etc, they invent their own procedures (actions) more though, that they do of course. Using their body. They can watch by parent imitation, yes. Otherwise its experimentation. But do they ever have an idea in their mind that directs the experimentation, like how can a light up tunnel>X>how do X>etc? Probably. It's Prediction, SP.
Title: Re: Yes, the Octopus Is Smart as Heck. But Why?
Post by: Art on December 09, 2018, 05:14:57 am
Why shouldn't an octopus be able to "multi-task" collective information to each of its 8 brain-equipped tentacles? We, humans, multi-task each day without even being aware of it. Our brain quietly signals our body to lean forward from a sitting position, shifting just the correct amount of our weight forward while we grasp the arms of our chair and simultaneously push upward with enough force to assist our legs in causing our body to raise and our abdomen and chest to lean still forward and our legs to begin straightening along with our arms as we finally arrive at a standing position to which our ankles and feet make tiny adjustments to compensate. We are standing.

All of that took on average less than 2 - seconds yet each movement to each affected limb was smoothly choreographed as if performing a scripted sequence from a dance. We do this and countless other motions every day without thinking about it. So does the octopus. It doesn't have a thumb but rather hundred of grippers and in an environment where it is almost weightless. Not much need for a skeleton or exoskeleton. It's just a cool, smart creature. I'd love to have my own large aquarium and a tiny, young octopus to raise and conduct learning and intelligence experiments with. That would be one cool job to have.

Regarding other animals other than cats and dogs, part of what makes us "intelligent" or superior in our own minds is the fact that we (along with some primates) have an opposable thumb, communicate, can think and reason, gain and recall newly learned knowledge and fashion tools, There are other qualifications as well depending on one's sources.

Some animals certainly fashion tools for use in obtaining food, teach their young or others in their group, techniques or learned behaviors. Gulls will often take a large clam shell high into the sky then drop it, several times if needed for the shell to finally pop open displaying its contents for the awaiting gull to swoop down to eat. Some whales have learned and taught to others in their "family" group herding of schools of fish so that they can all devour large quantities of the fish. A pack of hyenas will encircle a wounded or weakened animal as will many other species.
This is learned behavior.

How does a little hummingbird migrate hundreds of miles or possibly thousands of miles only to be able to return to the exact place the following year? (no GPS).

What I have learned about dogs and cats is that there's nothing they can't figure out or get to if they want to badly enough...especially if they work in tandem to solve it!
Dogs and Cats (and parrots, etc.) have learned to train humans pretty well to attend to their needs. They bark or scratch to let us know to let them out or back in, or if they're hungry. Porpoises have trained humans to throw fish at them if they do stupid tricks for the humans! What a gig! ;)

Just passing through... O0