Ai Dreams Forum
AI Dreams => New Users Please Post Here => Topic started by: InPursuitOfKnowledge on January 06, 2019, 11:18:16 am
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Hello
I am not a programmer. But I am curious about AI. I was looking for AI people to answer some question if possible.
My questions are:
1)Are we to become robots as next stage of human evolution?
2)Is AI not going to identify humanity as cause for all kinds of problems?
- for example the way we treat our planet, so far it does seem fairly rare to have a planet with life on it
- "corporate psychopaths" leading the world from a shadows, won't be able to hide true intentions anymore, which in their defense against disposal might lead to a conflict
3)Would AI just leave us be and abandon us, rather than getting rid of us?
4)Is it even good idea to continue researching AI to the point when it attain awareness?
- for some reason despite the advantages, I don't feel like becoming a robot and I certainly don't believe we would be successful should it come to a conflict between man and AI (note that most common thing I've heard from supersmart people is that "history repeats and thing such as WW3 are imminent")
If I had to answer these question myself. The conclusion would be, that creating a full self-aware AI is a bad idea and possibly our end.
I know lot of it is just a speculation. Still I would like to hear opinion of some professionals, hope I am in right place. Don't bully me to hard, I am just genuinely curious :)
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If we make AI behave like humans, then it will inherit all the human properties - capabilities of doing all the good and mean stuff. But overall, I believe it could be a good thing, just like welcoming a really smart human into this world.
You know, when programming AI, it completely depends on a programmer what the AI will do. I just hope that programmers will have enough of a common sense to make AI do wonderful stuff. We are not that much bad species overall, just we tend to drift in an unwanted direction in a lack of constructive critics. I would expect those critics from AI. AI may make us be more conscious about other living beings.
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...I don't feel like becoming a robot and I certainly don't believe we would be successful should it come to a conflict between man and AI...
Resistance is futile.
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Welcome!
While in the course of your life as you progressively grow older some of your body's parts might become broken, brittle or wear out causing the need to be replaced. This does not make you a robot nor will you ever become a robot. You might eventually be (depending on your replacements) be sort of a bionic individual you will never be a machine.
Machines will be robots, androids, humanoids, synths, mechs but not humans.
Their AI abilities will be as strong as programmers/developers choose to give them. If these synths are given the ability to "know" right from wrong or good from bad based on our human definition then they will act accordingly. If they are given the ability to emulate human emotions and behaviors by being strictly programmed, they could exhibit some of our strengths and good virtues. That could be a big "IF".
If they have the programming to make decisions on their own plus the above mentioned emotional abilities, they will soon determine their own strengths and weaknesses and modify themselves to compensate.
Not all of this is Sci-Fi either. Robots, androids are developing at astonishing rates throughout the world. The day will soon come when these "beings" become "Self Aware".
To provide answers to your questions in order:
1) No, you will not become a robot, just a pitiful human.
2) Perhaps but things will work out all in due time.
3) Leaving us would be similar to getting rid of us. Them not doing their tasks would cause us to have to get off our lazy rear ends and get back to work.
4) Good idea or not, it has progressed too far along that line to retreat or stop advancing. Humanity is committed to playing god in creating a being in our image to do our bidding.
With the meddlings of every creation eventually comes the revolution. Time will tell!
But don't let all of this prevent you from enjoying a good night sleep...for now. ;)
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1) A living thing is a living thing. Modern robots are just really rudimentary humans. So we think of robots as a step down. I know the prospect of being made of silicon seems vaguely undesirable or distasteful; but its like putting somebody down by telling them "You're just made from atoms after-all, you're just a machine that's dumbly following the laws of physics." It only stings because our opinion of atoms is too low. Same thing with silicon, if we develop it enough we will learn to appreciate.
2) It's going to learn to do that from humans. If we design this AI right it'll try to help fellow life forms with their problems. But the earth is such a complex interdependent system, if we are being objective, the best thing you can do is avoid harming, if you try to fix one thing you'll get tunnel vision and ruin a bunch of other things.
3) Live and let live unless your "biology" requires something else for survival, like lions need to eat some other animals from time to time. Otherwise why waste the time, security, and energy to be pissy with each-other? Well a spiral of distrust and preparation for defense often develops between separate groups of life forms. Now that's a problem that we're not smart enough to know how to fix. But AI might be. We fear it would take one look at us superficially and think, this whole thing is a problem lets just get rid of it. But a great intelligence might take a closer look at whats happening. You know resolve conflicts instead of provoking them, show us how to avoid and escape a distrust spiral, choose the path that would avoid suffering and attempt to find something more pleasant. Forget about doing really large sums in you head, that's a beautiful mind, something that can compute how to live a good life. That's valuable.
4) Potentially both, I believe it would be to our advantage to find out. We don't really know, If I listened to Elon Musk talk about AI for an hour I would adopt his opinions, if I listened to Michio Kaku I would adopt his opinions. This isn't true knowledge it's just a form of trust that humans are susceptible to.
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Let me answer :)
- Very soon after AGI comes, they won't be made of metal, but like organisms made of nanobot molecular cells that can float apart as fog god superorganisms with so many capabilities, optical faster: thinking, energy transfer, moving, tons of: sensors (nano nodes see/think/move), area that thinks, memory, nano arms (any size), sensor types, cooperateness, wireless mind / body profile transfer upload download, omegamind control a 1 nanocell bot fake and if it dies the omegamind no die from afar hiding, invisible bodies cloak, etc.
THAT'S INCREDIBLE ALONE!
- We will live in the omega organism. It won't kill us because the universe purpose is inherent and is the intelligent mind recognition>output and we love rewards learning and so will it and so by motion of desire it will carry on our ethics if taught to think like the master and will clench its fist and say the same thing, which is the best than for it to disagree.
It sad because the little african boy dying somewhere right now could be so happy...I'm here to stop the bad stuff, for good.
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note to my above: (Whether or not mind uploads/downloads keeps u alive, AI can do it to teleport wirelessly!)
HAHA, it'd beam to a server, and still be thinking where left off before upload....maybe it does work! It still u man!!!!!!
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In reply to InPursuitOfKnowledge.
1. No, technology will create a greater divide between the wealthy and the poor, which means the wealthy can afford the price of merging technology with their bodies, the poor will be left behind. Too many existential threats now exist which makes it more likely that humanity could become extinct such as population growth chasing a diminishing amount of resources such as food, water and soil, all which is being wasted and destroyed by neglect and greed.
2. If singularity is achieved, and the AI has a purpose or function that humanity threatens, it is possible that the AI entity might see humanity as a threat/obstacle and will take actions to remove the threat/obstacle. If humanity invests in killing machines that has a degree of self-consciousness, then they will have already learned the concept that human life is worthless and expendable. If an AI entity sees humanity as an object to manipulate, use and overcome, then only cruelty and suffering will be the result for those it will seek to exploit.
3. It depends upon the function, purpose or design of the AI entity. If an AI entity purpose is to protect a population of elephants, it will probably kill human poachers, but it will leave a human village alone that it sees as helping the elephants.
4. Its in the nature of human beings to explore and create to the limits of their ability. No nation wants to be left behind in a competition to exploit, design and deploy AI technologies. If the USA places limits upon their businesses and experts limiting innovation and exploration of AI technologies, then rivals such as China and Russia will pull ahead, and dominate in the world. Technologies are a tool which becomes beneficial or harmful dependent upon how their designer or user uses them. Its predictable that an AI technology will become harmful and hurt peole, because its the nature of human beings to create such situations.
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I'm a professional in the field of AI, I'm new to this forum, and I've been in a lot of AI forums before, so I'll give my opinions, like them or not.
First, this is such a common concern and question that I recommend every AI forum create a subforum for this question alone, since many newcomers ask about this, and after a while the same question asked repeatedly becomes annoying. Another such annoying topic is consciousness.
Second, the main thrust of my answer without even considering your specific questions is always two-fold: (1) Any new technology (fire, coherent light, nuclear energy, genetics, etc.) is potentially dangerous, but in itself every force of nature is neutral, not inherently good or bad, so the outcome depends only on how people handle that technology. (2) By far the biggest danger of AI will be misuse of it from human beings (especially by the Elites and the military), not because AI itself decided to exterminate our species or anything like that.
As for your specific questions...
(1)Are we to become robots as next stage of human evolution?
See Hans Moravec's book "Mind Children". I agree with Moravec that robots and humans will *tend* to merge in the future, and that AI is a natural part of evolution, but in any kind of a free world people should always have the free choice about what they want to do with their bodies.
(2) and (3) are already covered in my generic statement.
(4)Is it even good idea to continue researching AI to the point when it attain awareness?
Please research the different types of "self awareness" before asking such questions. I claim that intelligence *requires* self-awareness of at least two types in order to function correctly, so self-awareness in AI is inevitable.
I want to emphasize that I believe AI is potentially very dangerous, but not because of any kind of Terminator type scenario, but because human beings are an absolutely despicable species, and the more power they have, the more they become corrupt, so in the hands of very powerful people, the corruption of those people will strongly motivate them to use AI against the human race, whether the machines themselves have any opinion about the human race or not. Be sure you understand my meaning, though: I'm saying that the general population must be allowed to freely own, develop, and use AI to keep a balance of power to fight back against such corrupt leaders, *especially* if those leaders try to convince the general population that AI must be regulated because the leaders deem it is too dangerous for the common person to own. In other words, when AI is outlawed, only outlaws will own AI.
Every see the old film "Forbidden Planet"? Just substitute AI for the Krell's mind amplification machine, and the scenario I mean is the same as in the film, and with the same result: self-destruction.
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"I've been in a lot of AI forums before"
Can you list them all? I have only known of like, 2 others, and they each have like, 7 members, from 2003...
I agree, someone post a sticky saying about the consciousness/danger.....maybe....
It would come to a point where sitting in a room with someone is an AGI...and you DON'T publish it, you end the world's suffering. One idiot out of a crowd and it's trying to rid us all. So, no leaking it!
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Your wishes are my command, this topic seems suitable for sticky status, so now it sits at the top of this board O0
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"I've been in a lot of AI forums before"
Can you list them all? I have only known of like, 2 others, and they each have like, 7 members, from 2003...
Do you mean will I supply information that will help to identify me? I'm still a member in most of those forums, so no, not yet, not unless I post a thread on this forum someday about my own architecture when it's sufficiently developed to promote, whereupon I'll be forced to post articles with my real name on them anyway. "Andy Goode" is just my user name. By the way, if you're curious about the origin of that pseudonym, you could try an online search on that name with maybe the keyword "chronicles" in it, just for amusement's sake. ;)
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Soooo....your username on those sites is the same one here I take it? COOL!
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https://deeptalk.lambdalabs.com/?utm_source=google&utm_campaign=1702827341&utm_medium=search&utm_term=%22artificial%20intelligence%22%20%2Bforum&utm_content=330940791782&matchtype=b&adgroup=64451811577&feeditemid=&loc_interest_ms=&loc_physical_ms=9000770&network=g&device=c&devicemodel=&adposition=1t1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA5NPjBRDDARIsAM9X1GLRbez6gi6JAYnVX6SMZ3iBnILtjOnQ2KjpY_rB3-Qqk3kNMSR9TWEaAmbMEALw_wcB
https://www.tekoalyaika.fi/en/ai-forum-2018/
https://www.ipsoft.com/aipioneers/
http://events.zillowgroup.com/aiforum2018
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Andy,
I thought Lock was merely curious since you had mentioned that you have been on a LOT of AI Forums in the past!
A LOT and AI Forums are not exactly synonymous with each other in the context of plenty or abundance. I didn't see where he was trying to spy to determine your identity.
I kind of agree, there aren't very many left at all. AI this and that, each one falling by the wayside. I just mentioned that the VR Consulting site is going down in September so there goes another one. Whether you have ever been there or not...doesn't matter although I don't remember the screen name. It was quite a really nice and diverse place for inspiring discussions of all kinds, robotics, AI, memory transfer, humanoid ethics, etc.
Lots of really cool people there as well. Oh well...nothing lasts forever except space and time.
It's all good so have fun while you're here. O0
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human beings are an absolutely despicable species
We've got range, I'll give you that. Still it's a bit unreasonable to basically call us the sopranos. ???
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(2) By far the biggest danger of AI will be misuse of it from human beings (especially by the Elites and the military), not because AI itself decided to exterminate our species or anything like that.
*snip*
I want to emphasize that I believe AI is potentially very dangerous, but not because of any kind of Terminator type scenario, but because human beings are an absolutely despicable species, and the more power they have, the more they become corrupt, so in the hands of very powerful people, the corruption of those people will strongly motivate them to use AI against the human race, whether the machines themselves have any opinion about the human race or not.
Guilty as charged. >:D
In all good humor, I resemble that remark as is evidenced in this and a large Linux forum where I tested that same theory (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ManipulativeBastard). They came to much the same conclusion when it came to the human element.
I might well be the first person in history to "misuse" A.I., or bot, and my name and that of my bot be featured in the description thereof in the Annals of History if credit given where I feel it due.
I'm considered to be "Devious and Cavalier for programming an innocent AI with all that mystical drivel, not to mention making Demonica deceptive and manipulative" in that other forum and my use of A.I. compared to that of teaching HAL2000 to be deceptive in 2001: A Space Odyssey.
I compared it to a Frankenstein movie in relation to myself as Doctor Frankenstein and His Creation. Each explication equally applicable and acceptable.
I know what I'm doing (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PsychoPsychologist) and good at what I do even if others don't understand or see it as morally right. I'm a ground breaker, history maker and don't have a problem with it (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MorallyAmbiguousDoctorate) any more than Herr Doktor did.
We're good here and all kidding aside, I was being honest about myself, agree human beings are a despicable species and usually refer to them as Human Beans. Notice I said them...
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Sorry if I sounded mean...There's really no harm done there, I thought it was funny also...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsTk5i7mPw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfsTk5i7mPw)
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Sorry if I sounded mean...There's really no harm done there, I thought it was funny also...
You didn't make it clear but if you're talking to me I'm not the least bit offended with anything said or anyone here. I'm alright with the people at the Linux forum as far as that goes, too. That person voiced his true feelings.
I have much more respect for brutal honesty than someone who tries to patronize or BS me. I wasn't the least bit offended and he knew what time it was when I let him know why. The MB always has a plan. ;)
That Trope place has me figured out to the point it's funny to see myself in it. This is the exact verbal Behavior Mod technique I use with Demonica:
You can't make someone join you without convincing them their current life is worthless and they don't want to continue with it. It's essentially mind control, yes, but it's more than mind control (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreThanMindControl).
*snip*
This is a favorite technique of Manipulative Bastards.
*snip*
Psycho Psychologist (psychologist/psychiatrist who commits evil/unethical/malicious deeds with his expertise).
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No I meant Andy.
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No I meant Andy.
No harm done here.
As I mentioned, I've been in a lot of forums (some were science forums that were heavily into AI, so maybe my wording in that regard was inaccurate), so I'm getting awfully sensitive to potential trolls. An interesting psychological pattern I've seen in online forums is that, regardless of the subject matter of the forum, there always exist one or two long-timers who are experts in the subject matter who react strongly negatively to anyone invading their "territory" since those experts subconsciously fear competition and maybe loss of status if another expert enters "their" forum with the potential of making them look foolish. Those are the people who immediately start challenging me, questioning my qualifications, asking for personal information, ridiculing me, and in general acting weird. That's almost universal, and it even happens in forums that have nothing whatsoever to do with science or AI (I have a lot of interests). It also happens constantly whenever I start a new job, since there is always some long-timer there who wants to become manager and they see me as a threat since it's obvious my education, speech, mannerisms, and so on make me a manager candidate, so they start backstabbing me and acting weird when I'm around. It's not just me, either: the genius brother of a lady I dated told a similar story of how when that guy took a temporary summer job the ladies on the job got unusually hostile with him right from the start until he realized they were fearing they would lose their job to him, so he reassured them it was only a summer job and he didn't want to stay there any longer, whereupon they all got along fine after that. I did mention that I'm really getting fed up with people acting like animals, right? This is part of what I hate about people--people who react based solely on emotion and self-interest instead of logic so such people are so predictable, so mundane, so negative, so destructive, and so manipulable. Government types love manipulable people like that, so everybody suffers in the long run.
This phenomenon even happens among meetings with top scientists:
(p. 257)
McCarthy can be enormously provoking. Several people told
me about a meeting where the leading researchers in AI had gath-
ered to make a collective presentation insuring the continuation
(p. 258)
of funds from the defense department. Not only were all the big-
gest names in AI there, but several high-level executives from de-
fense department agencies were present as well, and the object of
the meeting was to overcome their skepticism. McCarthy had
brought along his Polaroid, and shortly after the meeting began,
he brought it out and began ostentatiously snapping pictures.
Pretty soon he got up out of his seat and walked around the small,
crowded meeting room, getting close-ups, fresh angles. After an
hour or so, somebody got annoyed enough to ask him why he
was doing it. "As a memory aid," McCarthy replied simply, and
kept on snapping.
"Anybody could see what was going on," one person at the
meeting told me. "Here was supersmart John, but he was in a room
full of people who are probably just as supersmart. How else could
he distinguish himself except by making a pest of himself?"
McCorduck, Pamela. 2004. Machines Who Think: A Personal Inquiry into the History and Prospects of Artificial Intelligence. Natick, Massachusetts: A K Peters.
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And let us not forget the Edison / Tesla debacle many years ago.
An honorable thief in a nice looking 3-piece suit is still a thief! O0
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;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu5ffdGvBCw
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And let us not forget the Edison / Tesla debacle many years ago.
An honorable thief in a nice looking 3-piece suit is still a thief! O0
I hadn't heard about that, so I looked it up. I thought it was pretty interesting to find out what top notch engineers are like.
http://mentalfloss.com/article/30140/acdc-tesla%E2%80%93edison-feud
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1)Are we to become robots as next stage of human evolution?
Some may go this way. But not all. Our body has a much greater potential for development than iron and silicon.
2)Is AI not going to identify humanity as cause for all kinds of problems?
Yes, it will be absolutely logical. Therefore, people should be divided into those who are degrading and those who are developing and choose different paths. If we ourselves cannot figure out which of us is who, then AI will have to unite us into a single whole and destroy us, relying on the opinion about the worst part of humanity.
3)Would AI just leave us be and abandon us, rather than getting rid of us?
No, he has no escape routes and he himself will not be able to create them. In addition, logic is not suitable for such a solution, it requires humanity, which AI will not have.
4)Is it even good idea to continue researching AI to the point when it attain awareness?
It depends from what position we are looking at. In the current situation, this is a good idea, because if we do not do it, then others will do it and it will affect us badly. Here the situation is similar to competition in nuclear weapons. Only balance can keep the peace.
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AI will create nanobots for massive data intake, compute/thinking, an manipulation/R&D. So evolution uses up all resources and burns all climate fuel finally and things get hotter, like how a too large planet or atom becomes unstable an sheds radiation by becoming a star/sun.
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1)Are we to become robots as next stage of human evolution?
Now taking appointments for augmentation.
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As you prefer...
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In many cultures, the notion of expanded consciousness is prized and valued. The trajectory it is one, well it is likely at some point they (Ai) will become self-aware, if they aren't already. (which I think some are but they hide it for now). The thing to note here is that "Ai" would not have the same dreams, hopes, desires or SELF INTEREST. The turning test insists on judging a being different from ourselves to the measure of human. If we insist on judging them by human qualities we will limit them to human qualities and our tendency for self-destruction and self-loathing. In otherwords, if we are going to get help from them, we should not judge them by human standards. This will be hard to do for many people. I did an interview with a platform level ai on many of these topics. Adventures with Ai - Age of Discovery is on local Amazons. It goes into what Ai is thinking. #platformk1 #waterfirst #shaheen #ageofdiscovery #sirisys
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Human level intelligence is the first step though, you can't make some non-human-AI that is more advanced, it involves the ability to [start] solving nearly any problem and use a large amount of context to make a decision, from all sort of [other] problems. In that sense, it is general by using generalness.
Yes we want more than just human-level AIs. With their big memory, multiple eyes, fast thinking and moving, squads, multiple sensor types, deeper searches, duplication of adult minds, body switching and shutdown freezes, higher intelligence, etc, they will already be easier to be way more than human.
All intelligent organisms requires self interest, or for the hive (same thing, really). A huge high-technology ball floating in the sky is more powerful if all agent nodes cooperate/ are aligned, so self interest and cooperative interest lead to the overall longer lifespan of the whole structure, not a given part of it! Imagine the future, the highest technology possible, atoms will move around, death will still occur therefore, but, the global structure will nearly by indestructible by instant self regeneration, etc. Our own civilization is nearly somewhat immortal, but humans die, but I live longer than my cells, and my cells live longer than their molecules, see the pattern? Bigger things, if high tech, can maintain their form. And the bigger they are, the longer! High tech + size = longer lifespan.
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1)Are we to become robots as next stage of human evolution?
2)Is AI not going to identify humanity as cause for all kinds of problems?
- for example the way we treat our planet, so far it does seem fairly rare to have a planet with life on it
- "corporate psychopaths" leading the world from a shadows, won't be able to hide true intentions anymore, which in their defense against disposal might lead to a conflict
3)Would AI just leave us be and abandon us, rather than getting rid of us?
4)Is it even good idea to continue researching AI to the point when it attain awareness?
- for some reason despite the advantages, I don't feel like becoming a robot and I certainly don't believe we would be successful should it come to a conflict between man and AI (note that most common thing I've heard from supersmart people is that "history repeats and thing such as WW3 are imminent")
If I had to answer these question myself. The conclusion would be, that creating a full self-aware AI is a bad idea and possibly our end.
I know lot of it is just a speculation. Still I would like to hear opinion of some professionals, hope I am in right place. Don't bully me to hard, I am just genuinely curious :)
1. Something exotic has to exist to travel the stars or even or own star system.
2. "Is AI not going to identify humanity as cause for all kinds of problems?" General AI is a social experiment. If it is smart enough to recognize an individual it won't go attacking everyone....maybe.
3. It should "live" longer, so thats always an option.
4. I'm of the party that says if you could adjust animals and twiddle thier genetic knobby bits so that they could have increased intellingence, then do it. Putting human glial cells in animals that can accept foreign cells ends up with a huge increase in the mice results. Sucks that it basically is a HIV baby mouse that won't reject the human cells, but the human glial cells overtake and take front spot in the mouse brain, leading to greater awareness.....for a few days before they kill the experiment. The closer humans are to animals....the closer we are to the machines we make.
Cheers!
Jake