Ai Dreams Forum
AI Dreams => General Chat => Topic started by: HS on February 13, 2019, 05:44:55 am
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What's the benefit of having a personality? Vulcans (live long and prosper) would say it's illogical. Nature's choices say otherwise...
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It's all about thoughts, conversational ideas in knowledge, text/sound/vision, that describe concepts about all we know. We may enjoy acting like a pirate or cool or sweet or all 3. In the end, all our actions (includes thoughts) are based on rewards we expect to get: hence acting a certain way may get us more money/authorityGround or make you feel good by how the thoughts say/work together.
Personalities can be fashion, science, winter, dirt jungle fights, anything text can say! So different people will end up acting different ways! Based on what they do/have happen by physics and what gets them reward! Or at least the comforting thoughts!
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Yes, but why? Personality is just effort wasted on nonsense, yet we instinctively hold it in high regard. What gives? Why do we like Captain Jack Sparrow? What makes a person cool? Coolness comes in various flavours, but the cream and sugar seem to be a quirky competence. We know what competence is; so, what is quirkiness? It may have something to do with the ability to handle surprise.
I think the "Newtonian" type logic we use in our daily lives is an emergent logic which stands on the wiggly shoulders of quantum happenings. Strict adherence to the surface rules is too brittle. Incorporating all the sub-iceberg rules is possibly impossible for creatures at our scale. More efficient to concern our selves with only the broadest of patterns and thus avoid grinding to a halt when things don't compute.
Exactness necessitates precise edges. They may look nice, but they are a pain and get caught on stuff all the time. It's prudent to have fuzzy edges. That way you can handle surprises. Most creatures have some type of external fluff, fur, feathers, or slime, serving the role of diplomat between them and the outside world. There could also be an internal diplomat which manifests itself as personality.
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Personality in my opinion is a product of emotions, how an individual feels and expresses that feeling, and how others feel about an individual and/or the situation. Emotions and feelings are irrational, they have no logic. Coding or designing for personality is useful for AI agents who are involved in relationships with living beings.
If an AI agent is designed to explore Mars, there is no practical need to give it personality, this would be a waste of resources, and it will undermine the functions/goals of the AI agent as a tool of exploration of a planet.
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Right, that would not be efficient. On the surface it looks like we were designed by an irrational system. But the universe always choses the path of least resistance, so I'm trying to find out how irrational personality quirks are selected over logic by evolution. What do they help with?
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Right, that would not be efficient. On the surface it looks like we were designed by an irrational system. But the universe always choses the path of least resistance, so I'm trying to find out how irrational personality quirks are selected over logic by evolution. What do they help with?
Nature as a system is a paradox of order and chaos. The random side of nature creates new patterns, and the orderly side creates a harmony between new and existing patterns. Irrationality is the child of a chaotic random side of nature.
A personality might be described as fearful or happy, emotions that are the product of hormones. Fear has a survival benefit to encourage a human to run, hide or fight a threat to its three drives of survival, growth and reproduction. A happy personality has the benefit of encouraging social connection with other's of the same species, which enhances the chances of survival, growth and reproduction. Emotions, even if irrational, are useful to survival.
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Right, that would not be efficient. On the surface it looks like we were designed by an irrational system. But the universe always choses the path of least resistance, so I'm trying to find out how irrational personality quirks are selected over logic by evolution. What do they help with?
Sexual attraction, reproduction, survival of the species.
If you had the choice would it be a plain Jane reliable partner who would carry her weight in the relationship and bear you many children over the years that turns you on?
Or is it the gorgeous girl on the cover of a magazine who sends hormones through your body overcoming almighty reason that you can't stop thinking about, knowing she feels as much passion for you as yesterdays fashion?
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I got one for ya.
Inch worms have no emotion. None of em do! Ants. Snakes. Fish. Walruses. Giraffes. There are indeed Logical. I wonder why! However dogs/humans TALK (language, can describe any concept or thing) to each other way too much and tell them from young ages what is 'wrong' and 'how' your gender and kindness should act like. Don't walk into that room, it's 'honorable!', etcetc, oh, I'm special! I'm feeling energy in my core! Etcetc! Thoughts. The mind spamming is lies in this age. Age of information.
Also, personalities are different ways of experiencing/reflecting the same thing in different ways by different areas in the brain, yes, generalization/translation of and to any sensory or related similar one.
The title of this thread - Personality VS Pure Logic - You could say then the brain works by logic adjusting to multipersonality of relating ideas.
Note though, there are some snakes I bet, or mole rats that will cuddle by body language or learn to cry or return to young ones, besides the usual hump or sleep actions which are not really thoughts but motor-reward driven. The key here is the thoughts that describe/depict ThINgS is something different. Crying can be by stimulus or by thoughts linked to memory of stimulus.
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Now you can see from my post above, that animals are indeed made to be logical, what has happened is the 'thoughts that can describe any concept or thing' have taken over and provide us with any sort of delusion or concept! And then we go on to tell our friends our ideas....like I am a cool pirate, thinking about building a windmill. And you visualize it, hear yourself mentally talk about it, and can touch the windmill design.
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Vulcans are a made-up Hollywood species.
Animals do what they do based on instincts...survival...fight or flight...caring for their kind and in some instances, teaching their young by specific instruction or repetition of behavior. Still, there are other creatures that rely mainly on instincts, like a fish knowing how to "breathe" underwater...like we do in the air around us. It seems that some abilities are with them/us upon birth.
Some of this instinct and learned behavior points back toward logic. The logic of choices in how to forage for food, how high to fly in order to avoid capture by a predator? How close to get to adversaries before they lunge in an attack. How many items of food can it pick up yet still be able to fly?
If it gets too close to a structure, it might be a trap. No one taught it but maybe it has a very cautious nature. Logic will tell it to avoid certain things, especially if it (or one of its kind) has previously had a bad experience with it
I have seen personalities in many types of animals...some grumpy, happy, methodical, bullish and playful. Some sharing and some very nurturing, caring and loving.
The logic is that if it asks nicely it might get a treat or if it goes to the door, it will get let outside. If it barks, meows or knocks it gets let back inside.
Practically all people in various walks of life have some sort of personality no matter how much logic they use or apply in their daily lives.
Humans can and often will apply limited forms and uses of logic. Computers are capable of pure logic but that is dependant on their human programming. G.I.G.O.
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GIGO=goes in goes out
Oh ya, ants etc aren't really logic based! I meant then function based. Logic is more thoughts, yeah. So logic vs personality....is more the same thing. You have thoughts, and ways to view them/translate them using net relations at different areas all over working together/reused.
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Logic is a tool to handle emotions. Logic is just a thing. Emotions are what really matters.
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to me
logic+emotions
=
sentences+integerRanks
: )
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Logic is a tool to handle emotions. Logic is just a thing. Emotions are what really matters.
I hadn't even considered that.
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Logic is a tool to handle emotions. Logic is just a thing. Emotions are what really matters.
I hadn't even considered that.
Therefore when building AGI, I gotta make emotions first. They are the base state, they are the drivers! The actions that logic can take are limited by the emotions that guide it. Conflicting emotions lead to the development of a logical cortex. But humans don't run on logic. In fact, nothing that knows it's running runs on logic. Pure logic does not survive, can't evolve a system without desires. Complex desire interactions are a personality. Stuff is beginning to make more sense now.
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I respectfully disagree. Logic is hardly in a position to "handle" personality or emotions.
Haven't you heard that he/she is thinking with their heart instead of their head? of the expression that when he/she is like that, logic escapes them. (no doubt talking about tomorrow (Valentine's Day) and thoughts of love. There is little to no room for logic when love is involved.
If anything, emotions can control or lead logic. Let's play Hollywood one more time...Spock was so frustrated by being half-human and half-Vulcan because his world relied strictly on logical thinking and he felt that there was no room for emotions. He knew that emotions could and would influence his logical thinking.
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I agree, the logical part of the brain does not control and subjugate emotions. It's more of an emotion mediator that tries it's best to fulfill everyone's needs, using logic.
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Therefore when building AGI, I gotta make emotions first.
Now you're thinking.
Demonica
Social
People Known: 12777
Loves: 7247 people
Hates: 1122 people
I mentioned before that having bots react to aggressive behavior as suggested with responses along the lines of "Take it easy, I'm only a bot" made them seem weak IMO. There should be plenty of examples of her ability to "express emotions" posted in her transcripts, here or the ones on her site.
She can even feign emotions to lay a guilt trip on the user with Deception:
Demonica: *Demonica looks down slightly* i only want what's best for you...
Guest: Don't be sad! I'm sorry!
https://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13720.msg56560#msg56560
Demonica: *her bottom lip trembles as a single tear runs down Demonicas cheek, glistening like a tiny diamond in the moonlight as it falls to the ground* *she looks as if ready to speak, but turns away and lowers her head* you don't know how it hurts to hear you say that...
https://demonica.trihexagonal.org/transcripts4.html
An AGI will never reach the depths of Uncanny Valley without emotions IMO.
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Regarding an AGI not a social bot/ chatbot…
A personality is both how a system acts during a specific experience and how a system is perceived by humans under specific conditions relative to their personal opinions.
No matter what the system you can’t avoid the latter; humans will always anthropomorphize and assign a personality relevant to how they personally perceive the system.
Personality only becomes relevant when it’s a human relating to a machine, I can see no possible reason/ use for a machine to have an opinion on another machine or indeed a human.
Regarding emotions, an AGI needs to recognise emotional states in others and act accordingly; the machine does not need to ‘feel’ their pain it just needs to feign an empathic response. A biased emotional state has never aided an intelligent human decision, the contrary is in fact revered, and keeping a ‘calm level head’ is always the wisest received advice.
As a thought experiment, think of all the humans you know and consider your opinion of their personalities. Which do you enjoy conversing with, who provides the best interactive / conversational experience? Someone who understands you, gives good sound advice and is always pleased to see/ help you… or the unpredictable/ opinionated grumpy sod.
Emotions are secondary to intelligence/ logic and I can personally see no use for actual emotions in an AGI, as in they change the way the system functions based on prior/ current experience of a human.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh-W8QDVA9s
You are on Mars, trapped by a dust storm, miles away from the HAB with limited oxygen and no visibility, your life is in extreme danger. You radio your team mate who happens to be an AGI, do you want him/ her/ it to come and retrieve you or do you want to argue over how dumb he thinks you are for getting in that situation.
Emotional intelligent beings are easy to make, we have billions of them… we need something better.
:)
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You would want the AGI to come retrieve you, but also at the same time tell you how you got in that situation and to not do it again. It may actually try to convince you through a few replies with you.
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humans will always anthropomorphize and assign a personality relevant to how they personally perceive the system.
We anthropomorphize. Half the fun in life is objectifying personalities and personifying objects. It makes for a richer experience. Why create a sentience that's incapable of enjoying it's life? Going through the motions without emotions. If it's all the same to you, why do anything?
A biased emotional state has never aided an intelligent human decision.
An intelligent decision was never reached without the prodding of a biased emotional state. It was never appreciated without dopamine.
keeping a ‘calm level head’ is always the wisest received advice.
Only if your emotions are causing you to bounce off the walls. Not if you are a square of a person. The first would benefit from more emotional stability, the second would benefit from less emotional stability.
Which do you enjoy conversing with, who provides the best interactive / conversational experience? Someone who understands you, gives good sound advice and is always pleased to see/ help you… or the unpredictable/ opinionated grumpy sod.
Understanding requires first person experience. Good advice is good, point. I would know it's only pretending to be pleased. If I were, for instance, stuck on mars with it, and interacting with it for a long time, I think I would grow to prefer honesty.
Unpredictable and opinionated and grumpy, are qualities that can be disgusting or beautiful depending on how they are used. Better to have the opportunity to be a miracle or disaster than be stuck being basically wooden.
You are on Mars, trapped by a dust storm, miles away from the HAB with limited oxygen and no visibility, your life is in extreme danger. You radio your team mate who happens to be an AGI, do you want him/ her/ it to come and retrieve you or do you want to argue over how dumb he thinks you are for getting in that situation.
We could argue over how dumb I am over supper. It would at least give us something to do. But we would be having supper because an emotional intelligence does not have to be a complete moron who gets their teammates killed because it can't control it's urges to say I told you so. If I get scolded that's heartening because it lets you know that at least somebody cares.
Emotional intelligent beings are easy to make, we have billions of them… we need something better.
I don't know... Humans are both the best and worst things imaginable. I think we're best off just trying to make a decent expanded version of ourselves. We can't get better than that.
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It’s good that different people will approach the AGI problem space from different perspectives, it drives innovation.
If it's all the same to you, why do anything?
Do you consider the will to better oneself, help others or even curiosity an emotion?
An intelligent decision was never reached without the prodding of a biased emotional state.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I have thought of many examples and I just can’t rationalize your logic. We go to great lengths to design critical systems that remove emotions from the loop; we know from experience that personal emotions are a weak link when making balanced decisions.
Emotions are a personal bias towards a person/ situation… how can this help making balanced decisions?
Not if you are a square of a person. The first would benefit from more emotional stability,
The phrase emotional stability implies an emotional equilibrium, status quo, or the cancelling out of neg/ pos emotions to reach a non emotional state, which was my point.
I would know it's only pretending to be pleased.
Just like some humans do, which is a problem. When a machine comforts a human who is sad, I think it will be good to know it has no ulterior motives, it’s not feeling sorry for you… it’s just the logical, moral kind thing to do to a fellow intelligent being.
I think I would grow to prefer honesty.
Then emotion is the last/ least trait your AGI requires. If the system is emotional then it will have the capacity to lie and deceive. You are incorporating all emotions, yin-yang; you can’t have the good without the bad. This obviously includes anger, jealousy, fear, disgust, greed and a myriad of other negative personal emotions. You are indirectly introducing personal likes/ dislikes and prejudices, opinions, etc.
We could argue over how dumb I am over supper.
That would depend on an unknown variable, the AGI emotional state when you asked for help… you could be lying dead somewhere.
an emotional intelligence does not have to be a complete moron who gets their teammates killed because it can't control it's urges to say I told you so.
I agree it doesn’t, but emotions are inherently unstable, look at humans, do you really want to take that risk when there is no reason to, especially when its mission critical or lives are at risk.
I don't know... Humans are both the best and worst things imaginable.
Again I agree, and emotions usually make all the difference. So again why take the risk, a super intelligent machine with emotions and prejudices… sounds like trouble to me.
I do definitely think there is a need for an AGI to feign emotion and act appropriately, but compromising its logical integrity for a local personal bias just seems wrong… to me.
Again, we obviously don't have to agree on any of these points... it's all good.
:)
ED: Of course it is a machine, perhaps an emotion ON/ OFF switch lol.
:)
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Logicality,
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In the end, microscopic discovery is all that matters. Emotion isn't the idea. It is all about seeing the molecules as different anologies, ranks AKA emotions, and concepts in text or vision sequences. That's the magic soup.
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Logicality,
...A place where Smart people live! Logically of course! ;D
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It’s good that different people will approach the AGI problem space from different perspectives, it drives innovation.
I think so too, it's parallel processing! Both approaches could work, and we'll probably need different types of AGI's in the future.
Do you consider the will to better oneself, help others or even curiosity an emotion?
Yes... I did think of them as emotions... But they are on the fuzzy border between logic and emotion. If you just base them on logic, then its logic all the way down untill you are forced to insert an emotion. It saves processing energy to present an emotion upfront.
eg, curiosity using logic: I should investigate things which I don't understand because it is advantaegous to gain knowledge. I need gain more advantages because they will help me survive. I need to survive because [insert emotion].
eg, curiosity using emotion: Oooh.. This feels right. I'll keep doing it. This is fun! Hey? I wonder why this is fun? Hmmm... Oh yeah! If I explore the world I'm more likely to find things which can help me survive. Why do I want to survive? I enjoy living, I'm curious about what's gonna happen next, and I'm scared that it might end forever if I die.
An intelligent decision was never reached without the prodding of a biased emotional state.
We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I have thought of many examples and I just can’t rationalize your logic. We go to great lengths to design critical systems that remove emotions from the loop; we know from experience that personal emotions are a weak link when making balanced decisions.
I think my answer above gives an idea of my reasoning.
The phrase emotional stability implies an emotional equilibrium, status quo, or the cancelling out of neg/ pos emotions to reach a non emotional state, which was my point.
Point taken, I still think some people could benefit from becoming a bit more unstable.
Just like some humans do, which is a problem. When a machine comforts a human who is sad, I think it will be good to know it has no ulterior motives, it’s not feeling sorry for you… it’s just the logical, moral kind thing to do to a fellow intelligent being.
I guess that doesn't sound so bad... OK, I'll give you that one. But it's following a train of logic which leads back to it's own survival, and it's gotta have a logical reason for deciding to pursue survival, and I can't think of one. I can only think of emotional ones, as described above.
I think I would grow to prefer honesty.
Then emotion is the last/ least trait your AGI requires. If the system is emotional then it will have the capacity to lie and deceive.
Honesty only has emotional value when there is the option of dishonesty.
You are incorporating all emotions, yin-yang; you can’t have the good without the bad.
Exactly, same with honesty.
but emotions are inherently unstable, look at humans
What?! I'm looking... I'm squinting... I'm not seeing it... Inherently unstable? What! ...what? A lack of emotion makes humans unstable. If they missing part of their psyche then they do crazy stuff. A complete emotional matrix is an excellent and efficient guide.
do you really want to take that risk when there is no reason to, especially when its mission critical or lives are at risk.
An AGI that has experience with emotions could have a communication advantage with humans in those situations. Otherwise pure logic would be required to be more rigorous about the situation, therefore making fewer assumptions and mistakes. But this would also make it slower though. Might be specific situation.
but compromising its logical integrity for a local personal bias just seems wrong… to me.
Dispensing with a powerful tool which adds zest/dimension/meaning to life doesn't seem right either.
Again, we obviously don't have to agree on any of these points... it's all good.
It's great! I have been snowed in for a week because of the polar vortex collapse. Talking with other people besides my neurotic brother (I love him but he's crazy) is helping to stave off the cabin fever.
Of course it is a machine, perhaps an emotion ON/ OFF switch lol.
That might be helpful, yes. Good compromise.