Ai Dreams Forum

AI Dreams => General Chat => Topic started by: Zero on July 05, 2019, 03:11:03 pm

Title: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 05, 2019, 03:11:03 pm
- a social network architecture designed to make communities behave like a hivemind and act -



Focus on something



At the core, there's a topic list.

A user can freely create a new topic.
A topic is an URL associated with a comment.

Users "push" topics.
A user is always pushing exactly 1 topic.
A user can freely choose which topic he/she pushes.

A topic that's pushed by nobody is deleted.

The topic list is ordered according to the number of users pushing topics.
The topmost topic (the one which is the most pushed) is considered "in focus" of the hive.



Evaluate a situation



All users can interact with the topic in focus.
A user cannot interact with topics which are not currently in focus.

The topic in focus has a "resource tree".
Resources are URLs only (no comment).

A user can freely post a new resource in the resource tree of the topic in focus.
Each resource is either a reply to another resource, or a reply to the topic.

A user can upvote or downvote several resources.
In the resource tree, siblings are ordered according to votes.

   
   
Make a decision



The topic in focus has a "possible actions" list.

A user can freely create a new possible action.

A user can upvote or downvote several possible actions.



Act as a whole



The topic in focus has an "action switch" for each user pushing the topic in focus.

An action switch can be in "need to think" state, or in "need to act" state.
By default, each user's action switch is in "need to think" state.

If there's more "need to act" than "need to think" during more than 24 hours, the best "possible action" (according to votes) becomes the hive's new "current action".

All users are always invited to act according to the hive's current action.


Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 05, 2019, 03:30:02 pm
'Focus on some act-as-a-Whole Context', and 'Evaluation' are similar.

It can be summed up to just focus on context, context acts together. And, focus on the right context.

Focusing is part of intelligence, it is controlled and not free-y, but may have randomness to it, even the quantum pop-in pop-out randomness that isn't physics but pure random. But not magic free will, that isn't AI anymore, it's impossible, there's no gears to allow it, for the gears to exist mean determination.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: goaty on July 05, 2019, 07:58:39 pm
Just need ppl to be less selfish then it would happen.  but as if that will ever happen.  >:D


.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Hopefully Something on July 05, 2019, 08:22:36 pm
Or learn the idea of constructive selfishness. See, criminals are thinking too short term. Its the heroes of the world that really understand how to get self profit. ;)
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 05, 2019, 08:41:38 pm
We humans are sometimes selfish, sometimes altruistic.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: WriterOfMinds on July 05, 2019, 10:27:36 pm
This is kinda intriguing. I wonder how it would work as a non-traditional management structure for a project team.

If two topics are judged by the Hive consensus to be of near-equal importance, you could see obnoxious oscillations as a handful of "swing voters" change which one they are pushing. Perhaps once a topic gets the focus, there should be a mandatory delay before another topic can replace it? Topics need to stay in focus long enough for something to be done about them.

Is there a way of ensuring that the Hive's minority or low-priority interests do not "starve" (i.e. never ever get the focus)?

These are both problems that operating system task schedulers have to solve. Those generally assume an omnipotent arbiter rather than the decentralized democracy you're looking at here, but still, I suspect that body of literature might provide helpful ideas.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 05, 2019, 11:21:58 pm
I was writing version 2 when you replied WOM. I was about to say "please I could use some help analyzing this".

So yeah, same here. Oscillations immediately caught my attention. I can see mainly 2 approaches (which can also be combined). First is the same as yours.
1- The Topic Stack ordering is immediate, in real time, but the focus shift occurs only after a delay of 24 hours. In other words, if a topic stays number 1 during 24 hours without interruption, then it becomes the new Topic In Focus.
2- If a topic "push count" reaches 110% of the Topic In Focus "push count", then it becomes the new Topic In Focus.
Rule 1 is enough, no need for rule 2. And rule 2 is flawed anyway. But maybe 24 hours is too short. Let's say 72 hours.

Another question is: sometimes, it could be useful to suspend an activity temporarily in order to resolve another one, either because the second one is needed for the first, or simply because it doesn't take long while still being very useful. The idea is interesting, but I'm not sure it can be done without overcomplicating the structure.

Thanks for pointing out starving minority or low-priority interests. They are supposed to die by themselves, but I could be wrong. Here is the concept. Topics pushed by nobody are deleted after 24 hours. Imagine there are only 3 people pushing an irrelevant topic. They keep pushing and pushing, weeks after weeks, so the topic survives. One day, one of the "big count topics" matters to them. The 3 people want to be in the balance. Thing is: you can only push 1 topic. They have to make a choice: either they choose to abandon their lost topic (useless anyway) so they can be part of the hive's decision, or they choose to stick to their idea because it's important to them. Seems fair to me. If that's not enough, I'm adding a new mechanism. A user's "push" only counts if the user actually uses the app: if a user doesn't use the app during 48 hours, then his/her push is considered inhibited. As soon as the user connects to the hive, this inhibition is cancelled.

I'm trying to remove every ambiguity from the definition, but it's hard because English is not my mother tongue.

Also, I'm modifying the resource rating system, with a "Quality Score".

Here, version 2.





evoque
- a social network designed to make communities behave like a hivemind and act -


Focus on something



At the core, there's a “Topic stack”.

A user can freely create a new topic.
A topic is an URL associated with a comment.

Users "push" topics.
A user is always pushing exactly 1 Topic.
A user can freely choose which topic he/she pushes.

A topic that's pushed by nobody during 24 hours is deleted.

The Topic Stack is ordered according to the number of users pushing topics.
When a topic stays number 1 (the one which is the most pushed) during 72 hours, it is considered "in focus" of the hive.

If a user doesn't connect to evoque during 48 hours, then his/her push is inhibited (and doesn't count) until his/her next connection.



Evaluate a situation



All users can interact with the “Topic In Focus”.
A user cannot interact with topics which are not currently in focus, they’re read-only.

The Topic In Focus has a "Resource Tree".
Resources are URLs only (no comment).

A user can freely post a new resource in the Resource Tree of the Topic In Focus.
Each resource is either a reply to another resource, or a reply to the topic.

A user can rate resources with a “Quality Score”.
The Quality Score of a resource is a number between 0 and 5 stars.
The default Quality Score of a resource is 0 stars.
In the Resource Tree, siblings are ordered according to the sum of their Quality Scores.



Make a decision



The Topic In Focus has a "Possible Actions" list.

A user can freely create a new Possible Action.

A user can Accept (upvote) or Reject (downvote) several Possible Actions.



Act as a whole



Each user has an "Action Switch" for the Topic In Focus.

An Action Switch can be in "Need To Think" state, or in "Need To Act" state.
By default, an Action Switch is in "need to think" state.

If there's more "need to act" than "need to think" during more than 24 hours, the best "possible action" (according to votes) becomes the hive's new "current action".

All users are always invited to act according to the hive's current action.




Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: AndyGoode on July 06, 2019, 01:18:06 am
- a social network architecture designed to make communities behave like a hivemind and act -

I really don't understand the point of such a project. I've always considered the hive mind concept just an academic branch of little long-term value that exists only because AGI has become so stalled in recent years. (I have the same opinion of existing machine learning methods, fuzzy logic, and a few other quasi-AI topics, by the way.) To me a hive of bees is even stupider than a crowd of people, and the latter is so stupid that it frightens me, so again I don't understand why people get so involved with such a topic, other than the sad reason I mentioned.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 06, 2019, 09:04:31 am
Thanks for sharing your opinion.

WOM, I think I misunderstood your input about starving topics. You were not suggesting they should be deleted. You were suggesting they should get a chance to be evaluated by the community, right? I’m adding a “Highlight Topic” feature: every day, the oldest topic that has never been the Highlight Topic becomes the Highlight Topic. The Highlight Topic is shown on the front page, next to the Topic In Focus. Users can interact with the Highlight Topic.

The delay introduced against oscillations doesn’t solve everything. Say, the Topic In Focus is getting old, and 2 urgent topics should take its place. They can’t because they don’t stay #1 for 72 hours (or whatever) because of oscillations. Solution: it shouldn’t be only about “staying number 1” but also “staying above the TIF”.

Version 3.


evoque
- a platform designed to make communities behave like a hivemind and act synchronously -



Focus on something



At the core, there's a “Topic stack”.

A user can freely create a new topic.
A topic is an URL associated with a comment.

Users "push" topics.
A user is always pushing exactly 1 topic.
A user can freely choose which topic he/she pushes.
The number of users who push a topic is called the “Push Score” of the topic.

A topic that's pushed by nobody for 24 hours is deleted.

The Topic Stack is ordered according to the topics’ Push Scores.
When a topic stays number 1 (when it has the highest Push Score) for 72 hours without interruption, it is considered "in focus" of the community, and referred to as the “Topic In Focus”.
When a topic has a higher Push Score than the Topic In Focus for 72 hours, it becomes the Topic In Focus.

If a user doesn't connect to evoque for 48 hours, then his/her push is inhibited (and doesn't count in Push Scores) until his/her next connection.

There’s a “Highlight Topic” shown on the front page, next to the Topic In Focus.
Every 24 hours, the oldest topic that has never been the Highlight Topic becomes the Highlight Topic.



Evaluate a situation



All users can interact with the Topic In Focus.
All users can interact with the Highlight Topic.
All other topics are read-only, users cannot interact with them.

Topics have a "Resource Tree".
Resources are URLs only (no comment).

A user can freely post a new resource in the Resource Tree of the Topic In Focus.
A user can freely post a new resource in the Resource Tree of the Highlight Topic.
Each resource is either a reply to another resource, or a reply to the topic.

A user can rate resources with a “Quality Score”.
The Quality Score of a resource is a number between 0 and 5 stars.
The default Quality Score of a resource is 0 stars.
In a Resource Tree, siblings are ordered according to the sum of their Quality Scores.



Make a decision



The Topic In Focus has a "Possible Actions" list.

A user can freely create a new Possible Action.

A user can Accept (upvote) or Reject (downvote) several Possible Actions.

The Possible Actions list is ordered according to votes, best first.



Act as a whole



Each user has an "Action Switch" for the Topic In Focus.

An Action Switch can be in "Need-To-Think" state, or in "Need-To-Act" state.
By default, an Action Switch is in Need-To-Think state.

If there's more "need to act" than "need to think" for more than 24 hours, the best "possible action" (according to votes) becomes the hive's new "Current Action".

All users are always invited to keep acting according to the community's Current Action, and to apply the community's Current Action as soon as possible.





By the way, how does the name "evoque" sound to an English ear? It's meant to be the name of the platform.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 06, 2019, 01:42:45 pm
I'm considering a potential flat-file implementation with Codeigniter (https://www.codeigniter.com/) and jQueryMobile (https://jquerymobile.com/).
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 06, 2019, 01:57:58 pm
So you are making a new forum where people push topics, like a hive mind forum for finding the best ideas? That sounds like LessWrong a bit lol.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 06, 2019, 02:08:31 pm
I don't know LessWrong. Edit: Wikipedia article about it doesn't smell good. What is it?

No evoque is not a forum. Nobody talks. Everyone acts.

Nobody talks since users cannot post messages.

Community members either act according to the community's Current Action, or leave the community.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 06, 2019, 02:38:05 pm
https://www.lesswrong.com/

So we act, to do what?? You say no one talks but you say we push topics....who writes the topics?
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 06, 2019, 03:04:10 pm
To do what? It depends on the community's purpose of course.

Who writes topics? Users.
Quote
A topic is an URL associated with a comment.
The comment is a just small size (max 1000 char) description of a situation the community is able to modify. That's not "talking".

Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 06, 2019, 04:12:05 pm
So in essence, what can it do for me, can I discover, or find a discovery...or....what? And why do we find a discovery? People vote up good 'handles' (ideas) ?

Like i put in as a comment "AGI is all about discoveries and updating its knowledge & rewards" ?
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: WriterOfMinds on July 06, 2019, 05:46:57 pm
Quote
WOM, I think I misunderstood your input about starving topics. You were not suggesting they should be deleted. You were suggesting they should get a chance to be evaluated by the community, right?

Yes, this is a more correct understanding of what I was trying to say, but still not quite there.  I wasn't just suggesting that they get a chance to be evaluated; my comment assumed a well-informed Hive membership who do read and evaluate all the topics.  I was saying that there is a good chance the community will deliberately decide to never act on minority needs/opinions, and that this is a bad thing.

Suppose you have a Hive in which 90% of the participants think that X is important but Y is not.  10% of the participants think that Y really needs to be worked on.  It seems to me that the ideal/fair solution is for the Hive to focus on X about 90% of the time and Y about 10% of the time.  But what is likely to actually happen is that X will get the focus 100% of the time and Y will get it 0% of the time.  If this happens too often, members of the minority faction will start to say "there is nothing in this for us" and leave the Hive.  (This is a general problem with winner-takes-all direct democracy as a way of making decisions; it isn't unique to your architecture.)
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 06, 2019, 06:03:23 pm
So in essence, what can it do for me,

I give you a hint: it can do for you exactly what you're able to do for other people. Think about it.

For example, if you're able to help someone, it means the hive is able to help someone, and that someone could be you.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 06, 2019, 06:06:54 pm
Ok got it WOM, thanks.
I start working on this.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 07, 2019, 02:58:07 pm
Done. I found a solution.

Each user has "Push Points".
A user has as many Push Points as there are users in the community (if there are 90 members, each member has 90 Push Points).

For every day of the community's Calendar, a user can allocate Push Points to topics.
A user can choose one out of 2 modes of allocation:
- Daily Mode: all Push Points are allocated to the same topic, 1 point a day.
- Flash Mode: N Push Points are allocated during M days, to 1 topic. The user is then inhibited during N times M days. N times M cannot exceed the number of Push Points of the user.

Small scale test.
The team has 5 members. We're on monday.
4 members want topic A. They're on Daily Mode.
1 member wants topic B. She's on Flash Mode, 5 points on thursday only.
The resulting calendar is:
Tuesday:   A(4) B(0)
Wednesday: A(4) B(0)
Thursday:  A(4) B(5)
Friday:    A(4) B(0)
Saturday:  A(4) B(0)
Sunday:    A(0) B(0)


The community's focus is fairly dispatched: 4 days on topic A, 1 day on topic B.



About evaluating a situation: it would be natural for the Resource Tree to be shown as a Mind Map.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 08, 2019, 09:27:58 am
Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Now I'm implementing it, so the next "done" will be the right one   ::)
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 11, 2019, 10:20:14 am
Hi friends,

I wanted to mention that I'm suspending this implementation because I have other fish to fry. But if someone is interested don't hesitate: tell me and I'll finish the implementation.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 11, 2019, 10:32:59 am
I'm interested in seeing it, to see if it is useful. I'm always learning.

I suspect the others will try it along with me too. Which seems to be the point of it.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 11, 2019, 12:48:40 pm
Ok, I'll finish it.
It feels like nobody's gonna use it anyway. Like all those things.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Korrelan on July 11, 2019, 04:04:37 pm
Hi Zero… do the projects that you want to do, not what others want.  It’s meant to be fun… not a chore.

 :)
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Freddy on July 11, 2019, 04:18:11 pm
Yes I agree - do what you enjoy. I only do ElfScript because I enjoy the puzzle.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 11, 2019, 05:15:44 pm
Yes but I like ordering Zero to create new free code, it is very fun. It felt nice to see such responses for once. And although I didn't read into the thread hard, it seems the only way to figure out what the thread was describing - testing is seeing.

:P   Part of that is a joke.

@Zero, if you know its a trashy idea, then obviously don't do it. If it is unique or does something other apps don't do, that is a million dollars.
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 12, 2019, 07:31:37 am
thx
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 12, 2019, 08:02:05 am
Wait a minute...There's hope.

Left to die as an idea, I took another read at version 3 description. Now I get it.

"By the way, how does the name "evoque" sound to an English ear? It's meant to be the name of the platform."
It sounds good. Makes sense with the description. To me it says act, think, evoke. An emerge. If you want to instantly explain the website, another name I can find should do better. Ex. 'Planning Hive".



So your idea is (with some amazing adjustments I believe are better) to have:

- EVERYONE in the said community of people make short "comment idea topics".
- EVERYONE push votes on them. The highest pushed is in focus (top of page).
- EVERYONE must also give a vote on all comments whether it is ready for act mode or think mode. Also let's add to push, act/think, the following:  clear, safe, pleaseUpgrade, ifConnectsToAotherComment(link the url)

I believe a critizing comments should be made by all users for the topics in focus, and have everyone rank those critic comments, so we can refine good but badly presented ideas lower in the stack and kick down good but actually bad comments.

Also, Good comments can have sub comments begin, to deepen the idea, and have their own vote thing going on.

Now I believe it would be interesting to create this website, if done correctly to get good hive plans then yeah.

Comments must be short, clear, with all filler waste removed. Summarize main ideas, refine/translate, repeat.

And most importantly, the website must have sections separated, so we have one stack only for how to build AGI, one stack for if trump should be president, one stack for....you get it.....we need to FOCUS! Personally, it is best to manage 1 stack -  how to make AGI, so we, well, focus!

A key to the stack is to have everyone give different kinds of diverse feedback, so we can push up good ideas, understand them why good or bad or how to refine them, etc.

Let's do it!!!! This is interesting to try!!
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: Zero on July 12, 2019, 12:33:54 pm
fork yourself
Title: Re: The will to act
Post by: LOCKSUIT on July 12, 2019, 02:07:33 pm
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

:3

Don't want to try to cooperate eh...