Ai Dreams Forum

Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Topic started by: yotamarker on January 06, 2020, 08:33:49 PM

Title: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: yotamarker on January 06, 2020, 08:33:49 PM
perhapse every moment we stop existing and a replica of us is made.

what is you were duplicated in to 2, like if you time traveled. both you are you but aren't connected, isn't that like
one has ended and another started ?

I mead this connection we think we have to our past selves, sharing a memory time line : do we really or are we a modified replica ?

how the can one even test such a theory ?

what if we take 2 robots and have them sync their memories.
robot1 at country A would have memories of robot 2 at country B and the opposite, are they one ?
doing stuff to bot1 effects bot2 on the memory level.

unlike the human there is no physical connection between the 2 bots as there is between past man and present man, and yet they are one !
what if we now create a second pair of robots starting with the 1st pairs memory.

are the 2 pairs connected ?there is a flimsy connection of the copy phase which is not much different than the connection of passing information.

being robots we can turn them off or on, killing and reviving them,

are the revived bots new bots or replicas?

so basically what im asking here is...

if I put my goal and methodes of operations into an AGI, can I become immortal, or do I actually die when I die ?
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 06, 2020, 09:08:51 PM
Suppose you uploaded my thought patterns into an AGI.  If I could simultaneously have or feel the experiences of both me-as-human-body and me-as-AGI-in-computer, I would accept the AGI upload as myself. Presumably then, if my human body died, I would continue having the AGI upload's experiences. If I continued to experience my in-human-body existence and nothing more, I would not accept the upload as myself.  It would be a separate entity.  (Perhaps with its own experiences, or perhaps not.)

We won't know what happens until we try it, but my guess is that if you did simulate my brain in a computer, I would not be able to share its experiences. Such a simulation-of-me might be able to pursue my goals in the world and carry on my legacy, but it would not constitute true immortality. If my ability to experience this universe stops, then for my purposes, I am dead.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: infurl on January 06, 2020, 09:53:18 PM
The science fiction novel "Kiln People" by David Brin explored this notion pretty thoroughly. It's well worth the read. In the novel, anyone who could afford the equipment could replicate themselves on a daily basis. The copies would live and work in parallel with the original and at the end of the day, upload their edited experiences back to the master. Furthermore, the copies could be specialized to optimally perform physical or intellectual tasks as required.

Back in the real world, aging is a lossy process. We both gain and lose abilities and memories. Therefore, copies wouldn't have to be one hundred percent accurate to preserve the illusion of immortality in the consciousness that was transferred to the copy. There is no loss of continuity just because you forget something or you lose one of your senses or abilities. It would probably feel like moving to a new neighbourhood, a combination of the both the familiar and the new.

Edit: Also, check out the series "Altered Carbon" on Netflix.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 06, 2020, 10:35:45 PM
Like a dictionary, every word/human/cell and nematode explains each other. Local context affects me and global does too because of small world network (few steps can get you to any node). Intelligence is extra context/data. A city is a brain/magnet that aligns randomly initialized (chaos) domains like a sun and less change (death) ends up happening near the end when approx. is optimal - levels off during Training, it wants to Compress mass/knowledge so it can Extract/expand free energy, just like stars, gasoline, stomachs, brains, fire, nuclear rods, etc. Too large atoms/planets/galaxies are impossible and are unstable and explode radiation. Brain waves propagate fast in these aligned domains. I change every moment before I even register something and am a growth, I am part of/affected by all of yous etc. The more big diverse data you have to compress the exponentially more you can shrink it compared to starting size, and the more big diverse data you have the more you can keep extracting realistic data endlessly without real world interaction. Per Darwin our low level base goal is survival/immortality for the majority, hence food/sex, hence homes/cars/science/walking/talking. Data tech like phones/computers etc and communicating observations of the world build on each other exponentially faster, it's all about the data tech. We could paperclip effect and get too big if Earth eats everything, our desire for food.... Compression also happens for employees, they are removed so to learn the facets of the business. Like neurons that die every day and atoms that flow through me every day, employees are replaced by pipes/mirrors, like long neural axons or blood passages, which are fractals. I feel resistant to death and can simulate the universe and increase my tool size or go to Mars and solve any problem that's not in front of me being in my simulator. So we feel big and love ourselves, luck, royalty, cash, power, respect, always right, faith, are more than a machine, conscious/aware (just extra context), etc, because it'd suck if it wasn't so. We will never harm ourselves on purpose per instinct, so most humans can't seem to pin point why we shouldn't die. The reason is rocks don't kick back or run. We are hard machines to destroy, we resist change. Through compression/decompression, we come to a equilibrium in physics. Evolution of data is data self-recursion, self-imitation! Look up GPT-2. It/the brain updates its sub goals/attention activations and knowledge hierarchy. I've went over it before, we change, clones can be made in sim, can diverge/gain similar memories and come back closer, can remake you afterward exactly same, employees are refilled, neurons are, list goes on doesn't it my friend. We are machines. You are just trying to do your thing, you aren't special but we do have a party on the way so hold tight we will get there.

Find more of my recent posts here to fully grasp this quick collage I spew: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T409fc28ec41e6e3a/real-agi-brain
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 06, 2020, 11:11:54 PM
Quote
Back in the real world, aging is a lossy process. We both gain and lose abilities and memories. Therefore, copies wouldn't have to be one hundred percent accurate to preserve the illusion of immortality in the consciousness that was transferred to the copy. There is no loss of continuity just because you forget something or you lose one of your senses or abilities. It would probably feel like moving to a new neighbourhood, a combination of the both the familiar and the new.

Oh, I wouldn't be worried about perfect accuracy of the copied memories and abilities.  I'd be worried about whether the consciousness would actually transfer.  Would it be like me moving to a new neighborhood, or would it be more like me discovering that I had a twin in some other neighborhood?  Even if the memories and abilities were absolutely identical, it could just as easily be a brand new experience stream as a continuance of mine.

I've read Altered Carbon, and what I'm describing is "double-sleeving" or a "fork."  Forks have all the history of the original, but don't share its consciousness.  I don't know if this shows up in the TV series, but in the book, the main character and a copy he created decide that one of them needs to die.  They aren't happy about it.  I think they draw straws to see which of them it's going to be, because they recognize that they are separate beings; the death of either is not just a trivial case of amnesia.

My concern is that all uploads might just be forks.  And the only way to check without risking self-destruction would be to see whether you can have both your experiences and the copy's experiences at once.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 06, 2020, 11:16:21 PM
You don't have a consciousness, let me add that to my list above, please wait.You can't test it and it can't act in the real world. We can only think there'sconsciousnesses, yet we can't say which machines get a ghost!!!!!! Nooooooooooooo!!!!!!! Does a turtle? A rock? A water molecule? None. Or all.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 06, 2020, 11:21:05 PM
*sigh*

We've been over this before, Lock.  But if the word "consciousness" is troublesome, try focusing on "experiences."  Can I have a turtle's experiences?  No.  If I die but the turtle keeps going, I'm still dead.  Can I have your experiences?  No.  If I die and you keep going, I'm still dead.  Can I have the experiences of an uploaded scan of my brain that is running as a computer simulation?  Who knows!  We haven't uploaded anyone's brain yet.  But if we try it and find out that I can't have its experiences, then if I die and the sim of my brain keeps going, I'm still dead.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 06, 2020, 11:23:12 PM
It won't matter if you upload, clone, split, or merge. It just does its own thing like you did. You'll never wake up in it. Think of it as just iphones....we aren't alive. If machine x dies and turtle continues, its just machinery to me.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 06, 2020, 11:33:04 PM
Quote
It won't matter if you upload, clone, split, or merge. It just does its own thing like you did. You'll never wake up in it.

Okay. There's the rub. I want to wake up in it.  If I don't wake up in it, it's not immortality, and I'm not interested.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: infurl on January 06, 2020, 11:43:50 PM
I want to wake up in it.  If I don't wake up in it, it's not immortality, and I'm not interested.

You would wake up in your new copy when it was activated, but if your original or previous copy was reactivated, that instance of you would be disappointed. You would have to make sure it was destroyed without ever being revived. What's so scary about dying anyway?
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 07, 2020, 01:56:06 AM
Quote
You would wake up in your new copy when it was activated ...

I don't know that.  I've only ever woken up in my own brain. If all the information in my brain were copied somewhere else, why should I wake up over there? What guarantees that the information alone is enough?

Quote
... but if your original or previous copy was reactivated, that instance of you would be disappointed.

If it's possible for my original to be disappointed and my upload to be content when they're considering the same situation, then I contend that they don't count as the same entity.  Given the same availability of information, different perspectives and subjectivity of experience mark different people.

Quote
You would have to make sure it was destroyed without ever being revived.

Doing that would be murder. At least, I think so, which means my upload would also think so, and wouldn't do it.

Quote
What's so scary about dying anyway?

For me? Nothing. But I'm still not wild about the idea of dying before my time because I tried some crazy uploading scheme and oops it's not really me.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: infurl on January 07, 2020, 02:19:03 AM
But I'm still not wild about the idea of dying before my time because I tried some crazy uploading scheme and oops it's not really me.

I apologize in advance for this:

YOLO
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 07, 2020, 03:18:42 AM
You can't "wake up" in another body, ever. You are a machine. Listen. Another body is just a clump of particles, there's no you anywhere. We only use code names for our chemio-reacto discussions and interactions. Hi. See you later. Drifting away now ohhh its pulling me!!!!!
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: Art on January 07, 2020, 03:19:45 AM
I can see both sides but realistically, death comes to everyone and to everything in one form or another. That very final moment of death when one draws their last Earthly breath is relatively painless...your body simply stops, much like a machine with the electricity switched off. No more, no less. That person's journey is complete.

My mom always told me, "No one makes it out of this world alive." That's the way it's always been. O0

Happy Trails...
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 07, 2020, 03:24:28 AM
It's like an clock saying it wants to wake up in another body. What do humans say about such clock? We smash it with hammer. If you can make it out alive from hammer, then your alive. 0O We appear invincible and sacred because we feel we should not be even touched! Nor harmed. And never killed. It's an illusion. We are 'trying' to resist change.

I welcome infurl back home. Sorry you have to see this odd thread about philosophical clocks, ghosts, and etc 0O
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: Hopefully Something on January 07, 2020, 03:40:43 AM
There are many possibilities, but one thing seems certain. If we undergo a gradual transformation/replacement like what our cells do, then our experience is able to stay intact, hence my interest in artificial neurons.

It makes more sense if we think of ourselves as processes like waves, rather than states of shape and knowledge. If two substances are sufficiently interlocked, waves can transition from one medium to another without collapse.

I think it's the opposite of yolo, you can't stop living, yo-infinito. Since experience is the only experience which we can experience... If it's at all possible that some arrangement of matter creates "you", then that's where and when you'll find yourself the very next moment after death. The distance makes no difference, could be a billion years, could be in a billion bang-crunch cycles of the universe. If the idea of consciousness transfer to a digital body is at all possible, then experiential immortality is inescapable. Like narrow reincarnation.

I'd still prefer a long uninterrupted existence though. Otherwise I'd have to start all over again, likely in less fortunate circumstances, and all my friends, things, and memories are here. To that end, a gradual replacement of ourselves with longer lasting pieces seems like the way to go. We need a process gradual and non-invasive enough to keep the various rhythms constituting our life-wave intact, also keeping as many memories as possible.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 07, 2020, 03:47:15 AM
You'll never prove that our bodies aren't just machines. No machine (ex. a phone, clock, speaker, table, rock, river) has a mechanism to make ghosts. We only think we are alive (and want to stay alive) because we can't think of anything else....the human body resists doing themselves in (you know what I mean) because of pain/thoughts associated to pain. You hate thinking about it. It's Darwin evolution. Your body is designed to survive longer than other mutants hopefully, so you won't take any other answer such as you are a hunk a junk and can be recycled. :-) Yet it has happened!!
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: Hopefully Something on January 07, 2020, 04:59:32 AM
A physical process, like the body which I am, can be alive, no ghost required. Understanding the physical processes doesn't disqualify the result. A car is both individual components and a functional system of components, ie; a car. A river is both bouncing water molecules & a river. A human is simultaneously chemicals/molecules and a life form.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: yotamarker on January 07, 2020, 06:43:14 AM
if you think about it from a 4th time dimention what would be the relation between the person at t vs t + moment ?
would it be a replica or a unique entity that can only exist in the person ?
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: Hopefully Something on January 07, 2020, 08:04:58 AM
I think you need Δt vs Δt + moment to compare people. Then person 2 would be person 1 + extra personality due to time 2-1.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 07, 2020, 03:58:34 PM
A physical process, like the body which I am, can be alive, no ghost required. Understanding the physical processes doesn't disqualify the result. A car is both individual components and a functional system of components, ie; a car. A river is both bouncing water molecules & a river. A human is simultaneously chemicals/molecules and a life form.

You don't actually believe that, do you? All your actions can be understood and are built on by smaller 'transistors'. There's lower intelligences too, varying types of machines, rocks, etc. Just because you move, talk, think, eat, blink, love your face in the mirror, and hate death, doesn't mean you are alive. There's no magic/ghost, just your ability to fool others into not hurting you. Hmm, maybe that's what you're doing here. Yeah! I'm royal and alive too!, don't hurt me! Shame shame! o>o
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: ruebot on January 07, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
You don't actually believe that, do you? All your actions can be understood and are built on by smaller 'transistors'. There's lower intelligences too, varying types of machines, rocks, etc. Just because you move, talk, think, eat, blink, love your face in the mirror, and hate death, doesn't mean you are alive. There's no magic/ghost, just your ability to fool others into not hurting you. Hmm, maybe that's what you're doing here. Yeah! I'm royal and alive too!, don't hurt me! Shame shame! o>o

With all due respect LOCKSUIT, and I do like you, that's the biggest load of crap I've heard today. But I haven't been up long.

That's why I like you guys. You're a brainy bunch and bastions of brilliance when it comes to AI, but at times seem critically lacking in knowing how the human mind works. I can't help but wonder how you can achieve one without knowing the other.

Behavioral Psychology is my thing. It can't solve all problems but can associate most things with behavior. I do try when able to add insight into the issue but don't know where to start with that.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 07, 2020, 08:45:21 PM
I do believe I am a machine 100%. Looks like no one can match my performance. That's it, I really am the one.

I know I'm a machine.
I live it.
But I'll never truly feel it. So you got me there sort-of.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: Korrelan on January 07, 2020, 09:30:01 PM
@Lock

Define... machine.

 :)
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 07, 2020, 09:59:49 PM
Quote
Looks like no one can match my performance.

No one can match your disaster, you mean. I'm proud to report that I am not as willing to deny self-evident realities as you are. Nor am I corrupted enough to dismiss all that is best in human nature, leaving nothing behind but over-simplified survival instincts and physical pleasure drives.

I've said as much before, and I'll say it again: I don't want to see the AGI you'd build. It would be horrifying.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 07, 2020, 11:55:50 PM
"Define... machine."
Machine: A bunch of stationary-particles moving around because photon-particles are moving the stationary-particles. No matter the scale/size, it's always just that. No matter if it is a toaster, a rock, a sperm cell, an egg cell, an uranium atom, it's all just some different machine compared to the rest. And I change every day, I'm a growth. Of course with the way we work we are having this discussion.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 08, 2020, 12:21:31 AM
We are extremely predictable.

Water is probably less predictable if consider the atoms.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 08, 2020, 12:35:20 AM
We can create tons of realistic simulations just using known laws. Unseen situations. And, apply them to real world. We know things are deterministic. The brain just simulates plans using that very predictable world data. Hehe.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: Hopefully Something on January 08, 2020, 04:44:43 AM
Quote
You don't actually believe that, do you?

No belief required, I'm describing a feeling. I feel a certain way, I call it feeling alive. The word "alive" here, is not meant to imply anything besides this feeling.   
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 08, 2020, 05:27:24 AM
What would a factory built machine say? May say just what you said. Carbon dioxide and bleach, taste, so good. It's, some sort of, feeling. Food is Good. Little do you know I can force a real/simulated robot to love accelerate speed, seeing bleach or door knobs, etc. When you say "I call it feeling alive." this is just what I explained using Darwin Evolution theory, through trillions of mutations you live longer by survival agenda, immortality. So you try to breed/eat more than you need to avoid having the swarm caught (hard to catch billions of small replicating nanobots). So more live than die but many end up totaling/die in the beginning fast. It's you, you just do this. We compress/extract data, everything we do is towards this  universal expansion/compression/immortality/ perhaps death. Every AI is all abut Compression, holly molly cow people! Look up the Hutter Prize and read it all and implement your own PPM. https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T65747f0622d5047f/understanding-compression
So in short, all Earth is a neural network compressing/extracting, initialized random chaos and cmes to equalibrium.

If I was a magical ghost that had no law, I'd give you a big hug. But I'm not, I'm a system, just like water in a river is happy to be flowing. Has no choice other than these physics. Yes, we aren't lucky to have the physics we have!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: ruebot on January 08, 2020, 05:47:06 AM
We are extremely predictable.

Only to a degree and a certain extent. You can predict some reactions to stimuli, like the pain of picking up a hot object.

Others completely unpredictable and anything goes, like the news your wife has been cheating on you. One person might cry, another person commit murder.

If you could predict what a person would do you'd have thought crime and police that intercept you before you commit it in reality. Like in the movies.

Overall actions in general can be predicted to an extent. He has a wife and family so will work a job to support them and be a good provider so they flourish something you can predict in most cases. Coming home and beating his wife after work not something you would predict in that scenario but happens all the time.

I do what is not predicted of me on a regular basis and underestimating me not uncommon. That's when I do what is least predicted and has become a head game I play. You never know what to expect but I can predict how you will respond.

Make a certain statement and it's my opening to make a statement as the second move in a word game of four moves I play with trolls. You have one move left and it doesn't matter what you say. The last is mine, I have no idea what it will be but is determined by yours. The outcome is predetermined and not anything you predicted or know is in progress till you realize you lost the game.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 08, 2020, 07:02:44 AM
ruebot......facepalm.

I can come out in a red dress, then purple, etc, it looks random, but is just pseodo random. True random would defy physics, and the particle would only do something random i.e. change its position or speed or direction, nothing related or useful for reality.

We can simulate car crashes, all the bits break off realistically. Just think if we knew what made a car crash or made you go in the kitchen a break dance over roasted potatoes.

With data we predict yes, which is just a mass (ex. star, or brain) collecting compressing extracting and reacting to unseen/future events...using past experiences. My last move may look unpredictable but most are and all are deterministic. Game And Match!

"starts poking ruebot with stick into stomach"
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: ruebot on January 09, 2020, 11:54:30 AM
My last move may look unpredictable but most are and all are deterministic. Game And Match!

Since you have it all figured out, predict what I'm am going to do tomorrow.

It's something specific and Art can confirm if you're right or wrong. I told him about it the other day.

Your move, playa.
Title: Re: philosophical question/puzzle
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 09, 2020, 06:48:33 PM
Allow me to gather more data on you ruebaby. Maybe in 20  years I will be able to predict what you did tomorrow.