Ai Dreams Forum

Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Topic started by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 11:43:43 AM

Title: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 11:43:43 AM
If you create a quantum computer,  what stops ANYBODY from killing you b4 you get it out???
What if its not such a good idea, making such attractive things,  could be a Jacobs ladder.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 12:12:38 PM
What's the story? Time travel?
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: infurl on January 09, 2020, 12:37:36 PM
What's the story? Time travel?

Maybe he is thinking of Roko's Basilisk, the most terrifying idea ever conceived. Just hearing about Roko's Basilisk could condemn you to endless torment and pain. Oops, too late.

https://slate.com/technology/2014/07/rokos-basilisk-the-most-terrifying-thought-experiment-of-all-time.html (https://slate.com/technology/2014/07/rokos-basilisk-the-most-terrifying-thought-experiment-of-all-time.html)

 ;D
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 12:58:41 PM
If there was time travel involved, maybe that meant you weren't going to get killed?
Because theres something more powerful at play here, not just machines and technology?
Unless something is there,  it really isn't a good idea to make such powerful things, because theres probably someone else out there that doesn't want you to finish it,   I mean,  it comes from the rather large pool of everybody else.   only takes 1 of them not to like it and your dead,  logisticly.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 01:38:47 PM
Well, we can keep a secret until the thing is entirely built?
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 01:46:24 PM
You cant just keep a secret till its built.  you have to maintain the secret FOREVER.   Your just risking things otherwise.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 01:48:00 PM
What's the story? Time travel?

Maybe he is thinking of Roko's Basilisk, the most terrifying idea ever conceived. Just hearing about Roko's Basilisk could condemn you to endless torment and pain. Oops, too late.

https://slate.com/technology/2014/07/rokos-basilisk-the-most-terrifying-thought-experiment-of-all-time.html (https://slate.com/technology/2014/07/rokos-basilisk-the-most-terrifying-thought-experiment-of-all-time.html)

 ;D

Love the avatar,  little mouse robot in a maze.  I made one like that too,  Korrellan has a good one as well,  it seems to be a good demo to make if your into a.i.  :)

Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: Art on January 09, 2020, 01:56:32 PM
Supporting the old adage that the Threat is worse than the execution.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ruebot on January 09, 2020, 01:58:01 PM
If I created a quantum computer the first thing I would do is calculate the odds of being killed for doing it.  :D
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: Korrelan on January 09, 2020, 02:01:18 PM
The solution is obvious... eradicate mankind before you release it... simple.

 :)
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 02:17:14 PM
Ruebot,  that's only if you get a quantum computer to be able to do that,  if its just raw power it still needs method before it can do something.

Supporting the old adage that the Threat is worse than the execution.

Its not just paranoid!  some things u have to be careful about!

The solution is obvious... eradicate mankind before you release it... simple.

 :)

Yeh, but wouldn't everyone decide to do that?  Why hasn't it happened yet?!?!?
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: Korrelan on January 09, 2020, 02:39:06 PM
Quote
Yeh, but wouldn't everyone decide to do that?

Obviously not... we're all still here.

Quote
Why hasn't it happened yet?!?!?

Because I'm not quite ready to release my tech yet.

 ;D

Ed: At the foot of your bed you have a wooden dresser, in the top right draw (nearest the door/ sofa) you will find a note explaining it all.

 :)
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 02:46:09 PM
Quote
You cant just keep a secret till its built.  you have to maintain the secret FOREVER.   Your just risking things otherwise.

Sure, before releasing someone *could* have something against, but after releasing... I think once it is released to public, the thing is practically done, so why would anyone hurt anyone then after? People would do their part, and that is making the tech popular, and there is no way back, so I think it's safe ever after.

But why on the Earth would anyone have anything against quantum tech?
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 03:30:52 PM
Quote
Yeh, but wouldn't everyone decide to do that?

Obviously not... we're all still here.

Quote
Why hasn't it happened yet?!?!?

Because I'm not quite ready to release my tech yet.

 ;D

Ed: At the foot of your bed you have a wooden dresser, in the top right draw (nearest the door/ sofa) you will find a note explaining it all.

 :)

The note wasn't there...
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 03:31:33 PM
Quote
You cant just keep a secret till its built.  you have to maintain the secret FOREVER.   Your just risking things otherwise.

Sure, before releasing someone *could* have something against, but after releasing... I think once it is released to public, the thing is practically done, so why would anyone hurt anyone then after? People would do their part, and that is making the tech popular, and there is no way back, so I think it's safe ever after.

But why on the Earth would anyone have anything against quantum tech?

Yeh I spose maybe your right,  because they'll steal it off you instead...  yep,   so I think you've just convinced me of that now.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 03:53:03 PM
I was assuming it's about humanity benefiting from the project, not the inventor. You know, there exist a joy of doing something because you believe in it. Everything else is a fake. Sure, you might get crucified along the way, but if you truly believe in what you're doing, that shouldn't pose a problem.

 :heart_smiley:
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 03:54:20 PM
I get it.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 04:11:40 PM
But then, what would be drawbacks of quantum technology? Cryptography breach to government dirty laundry maybe? That could really be a motive for a murder.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 04:19:56 PM
Yeh… being able to crack RSA is an issue...  isn't it...
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 05:10:44 PM
It shouldn't be. Secrets are what criminals are made of. We should rearrange the web without RSA or anything similar.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: LOCKSUIT on January 09, 2020, 05:36:43 PM
Don't assassinate the scientist, capture him and utilize him.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 09, 2020, 05:51:48 PM
Quote
Secrets are what criminals are made of.

No; secrets are 1) a way of protecting yourself when you don't have the power to directly fight off threats, and 2) a way of proving your identity and preventing theft.  Imagine if we couldn't have secret passwords for our bank accounts and so forth!  Criminals use secrets, yes, but so do plenty of good people.  Since secrets help re-balance power, it can be argued that it is worth letting criminals have them for the sake of making the world more democratic.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 06:09:28 PM
There are numerous examples where my stomach turns inside out, but I'll give just this one:


Isn't just this single example worth of making an effort of sacrificing using personal online banking software, or exposing personal e-mails? It would not be much, I'm sure we would work around it, but if we would gain just that one example secret I noted, I believe it would be worth of it.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 06:12:48 PM
Ivan,  what do you think about plagiarism?  Good thing, or bad thing?
Say you've developed a quantum computer... and ur worried about ppl copying what you did, especially possibly a group of ppl that lie about inventing things they don't... including this here quantum computer that they clearly took 200 years to not be able to make... and then suddenly it just pops up "so easy to do"  but could they do it without this guy?  no.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 06:25:30 PM
Goaty, I wouldn't mind much.

If they want to lie, so be it, it's their life. If they want to steal, so be it, it's their life. If they want to kill, so be it, it's their life.

People are freaking terrifying when it comes to committing to do what they're determined to do. No one could stop them anyway of doing whatever they want, if they really want to do it.

Maybe we should make that hard for them, but if we then have to sacrifice doing something really good, especially when lives are on the stake, I think I'd let them go easily.

Maybe I'm wrong.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 09, 2020, 06:56:24 PM
I agree with what u say, that it sucks to get your stuff ripped off you,  but maybe it doesn't matter.

But what if quantum supremecy seems like a good thing,  but what about bad it causes,  maybe its best if it never happens.

After the excitement goes away,  are u sure being stuck in a world where nothing is intractable Is always a good thing?
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 09, 2020, 07:02:13 PM
If we didn't allow companies to keep medicine formulae secret and profit from them, then we'd be stealing from all the people who worked hard to invent and test that medicine.
Some companies perhaps overdo it and charge too much. But I don't think the right answer is to make all intellectual property public.

Quote
If they want to kill, so be it, it's their life.

Are you serious?? If somebody kills, then by definition it's not just their life, it's the life of whomever they're killing!

I also don't understand why you say things like "get rid of secrets to stop criminals" but then turn around and say "let liars/thieves/killers do their thing, so be it." That doesn't seem consistent. Do you want to stop crime or don't you?
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 07:04:52 PM
After the excitement goes away,  are u sure being stuck in a world where nothing is intractable Is always a good thing?

All things weighted, I'd go for it, but I wouldn't make that decision myself alone. I have my reasons.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 07:40:23 PM
If we didn't allow companies to keep medicine formulae secret and profit from them, then we'd be stealing from all the people who worked hard to invent and test that medicine.
Some companies perhaps overdo it and charge too much. But I don't think the right answer is to make all intellectual property public.

World politics sucks, and this rotten capitalism is a thorn in my eye. I'm sure there are plenty other political arrangements that would solve this issue. I believe that governments should offer a solution where everyone would walk away with no blemishes on conscience. If governments are not willing to do it, people should establish an institution which does it. Hiding such an important intellectual properties makes only one side happy (if this could be called happiness).

Quote
If they want to kill, so be it, it's their life.

Are you serious?? If somebody kills, then by definition it's not just their life, it's the life of whomever they're killing!

I also don't understand why you say things like "get rid of secrets to stop criminals" but then turn around and say "let liars/thieves/killers do their thing, so be it." That doesn't seem consistent. Do you want to stop crime or don't you?

It is a tricky question, it is hard to judge the others without judging ourselves. We have all done terrible deeds, but I don't want us to commit a mass suicide. I believe in this world.

Forcing things has never caught my heart. I don't like criminal deeds. But I believe whoever does it, should be publicly labelled as doing it. That's as farthest as I'd like to go and plan if I could retain sanity all the time. But I'm just a human being, and I do serious mistakes, sometimes not on purpose, but I'm afraid, sometimes on purpose too. Should I ask for forgiveness? And then should I be able to forgive?

I choose to forgive criminals in advance, but I'm not willing to hear lies. I hope this would work in reducing crime. If I do anything more, I become a hypocrite.

 :-[
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 09, 2020, 08:08:15 PM
Quote
Hiding such an important intellectual properties makes only one side happy

Not at all.  If we didn't let people keep medicines secret and make money from them, who would make medicine? Almost no one.  If they couldn't make money from medicine, they'd have to work on something else, and there would be no new medicines.  So hiding medicine formulae makes both sides happy: the inventors because they get paid, and the rest of us because we get the medicine.

Working on something just to help the world for no profit is great, but that should be a free choice.  It's not something everyone can do, and I don't think it's something we should force people to do.  If you don't allow people to keep discoveries secret and/or patent them, you are basically forcing them to give away their work for nothing.  And you don't like forcing people to do things ... right?

Quote
I'm sure there are plenty other political arrangements that would solve this issue.

I'm not at all sure.  Communism was supposed to solve it, and it turned out to be an absolute horror.

I, too, think that we all do bad things and should forgive others.  But willingness to forgive and abstain from pointless vengeance, is not at all the same thing as refusing to stop someone who is in the act of doing evil. If you don't act to stop a killer from killing, then functionally you care more about the killer than his victims. When the choice is forced upon us, I think we should care about victims more and killers less.  (I know, you want to care about both of them at once. But sometimes that is simply impossible.)  If you forcefully stop other people from doing wrong things, but also accept being forcefully stopped by others when you are in the act of doing wrong (and you would want someone to stop you, wouldn't you?), then you're not a hypocrite.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 09:21:47 PM
Not at all.  If we didn't let people keep medicines secret and make money from them, who would make medicine? Almost no one.  If they couldn't make money from medicine, they'd have to work on something else, and there would be no new medicines.  So hiding medicine formulae makes both sides happy: the inventors because they get paid, and the rest of us because we get the medicine.

Do you think that people make medicines because of money? That's sick, what do you think of people? How can you even live among people imaging them that way in your mind? I ensure you, people make medicines because they want to help the others. Anything else is an insult.

It's not something everyone can do, and I don't think it's something we should force people to do.  If you don't allow people to keep discoveries secret and/or patent them, you are basically forcing them to give away their work for nothing.  And you don't like forcing people to do things ... right?

If they don't want to save a life, so be it, they can stay out of world wide web, as simple as that. I promise I won't look at their pity scripts, they can eat them, I hope they'll love the taste.

Quote
I'm sure there are plenty other political arrangements that would solve this issue.

I'm not at all sure.  Communism was supposed to solve it, and it turned out to be an absolute horror.

People are smart, they'll think of something. I put my bets on democratic socialism, but I'd like to be even more surprised. I'll wait and see.

I, too, think that we all do bad things and should forgive others.  But willingness to forgive and abstain from pointless vengeance, is not at all the same thing as refusing to stop someone who is in the act of doing evil. If you don't act to stop a killer from killing, then functionally you care more about the killer than his victims. When the choice is forced upon us, I think we should care about victims more and killers less.  (I know, you want to care about both of them at once. But sometimes that is simply impossible.)  If you forcefully stop other people from doing wrong things, but also accept being forcefully stopped by others when you are in the act of doing wrong (and you would want someone to stop you, wouldn't you?), then you're not a hypocrite.

I think this is about being insane. Insane people deserve protection from their sick decisions, using force if needed (you are right, that is what I'd want for myself). But if they, after a thorough explanation, with a calm head really want to kill anyway, what to do then? Should we stop killing a plant? Should we stop killing an animal? Should we stop killing a human? And should we stop killing the planet? Just draw a distinction line and you are an a**, claiming one life is more important than another.

As I said, it is hard to keep the calm head on some issues. That is what makes us living beings. I'm not happy about this, but I'd do a mistake and draw a line at humans, maybe even at non-criminals. But I propose less renegading and more understanding than I see around myself. And as far as I'm concerned, "lower" life forms should also have some basic rights. If not a right to survive, then at least a right to be free. Otherwise, saying "thanks" on beloved Xmas doesn't really make sense. And saying "I'm sorry" on Xmass would be more convenient, but I guess that's too progressive these days.

Now, what rights would have an AGI machine? If it's below a plant then it has no power at all. If it is above the planet, I think it might be too much power. I'm afraid it's our choice to decide whom the machine has right to kill, and I hate the guts of this problem.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 09, 2020, 09:42:25 PM
There is nothing "sick" about expecting fair treatment in an exchange of goods and services.  If I save your life by giving you medicine, then it's fair for you to save my life by giving me money to pay for my food, shelter, etc.  I think most people do want to save others' lives.  They can't do it for nothing, because then they would end up homeless and destitute and be no use to anyone.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: infurl on January 09, 2020, 09:45:35 PM
Love the avatar,  little mouse robot in a maze.  I made one like that too,  Korrellan has a good one as well,  it seems to be a good demo to make if your into a.i.  :)

Thanks. The graphic that I used is actually generated from the output of a robot simulator that I wrote in Common Lisp. It is running the robot control software that I wrote to drive a robot that I actually built. It was a rather large robot so I needed to make sure it would work properly and not destroy things. It worked, and the robot could cruise around my office for hours without getting itself stuck which was more than my Roomba was capable of doing.

https://asmith.id.au/state-machine.html (https://asmith.id.au/state-machine.html)
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
There is nothing "sick" about expecting fair treatment in an exchange of goods and services.  If I save your life by giving you medicine, then it's fair for you to save my life by giving me money to pay for my food, shelter, etc.  I think most people do want to save others' lives.  They can't do it for nothing, because then they would end up homeless and destitute and be no use to anyone.

I'd give my life for yours, and I'd be insulted if you would force me to take something in return.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 09, 2020, 09:56:42 PM
Ivan, are you really saying that you spend all your available time helping others and magically survive without receiving a paycheck?
I like to think I'd take a bullet for you, too, and I wouldn't expect any reward for it, but that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 10:02:20 PM
Quote
Ivan, are you really saying that you spend all your available time helping others and magically survive without receiving a paycheck?

You may all force me into doing that, otherwise I'd be insane and you'd have to explain me a few things about the real value of others' life and happyness.

But I'm just a pity human, I do mistakes and I have to take a break here and there and accept a paycheck. I'm sorry for that.  :-[

My parents still support me, by the way.

Quote
I like to think I'd take a bullet for you, too, and I wouldn't expect any reward for it, but that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.

It may be about distinct standards we have for ourselves and the others. Now, if you ask me which standards I ask others to perform, what would it be? Say what? I can't ask anyone to do what I'm doing. People, lie, steal, kill. I'll try to watch it calmly. If I lose the temper, better shoot me in the foot, I'll try to calm down. I can see victims on the other side. I'll ask them to forgive it all. If they do, I should consider them my friends. If they don't, then I should forgive them and be their friend.

But this is only me, gibbering about what I'd like to be in my life. The real question is what would your creation, Aquitas do. You have the power to make it does the stuff you could only dream about.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: WriterOfMinds on January 09, 2020, 10:33:28 PM
Ivan, buddy, you don't have to say "sorry" for taking a few breaks, or for getting enough money to support yourself.  Living inside your limits is not the same thing as being selfish.  The only way to be selfish is to make bad choices.  You didn't choose to be a human who needs breaks and food and shelter, and who can't possibly help others at all unless he gets those things.

If you can understand that the people who make medicine have those same limits, and therefore need to be given some money so that they, too, can survive, then you'll be doing well.

Quote
The real question is what would your creation, Aquitas do. You have the power to make it does the stuff you could only dream about.

Even Acuitas has some maintenance needs. He can't do anything to help the world unless someone pays the electric bill.  But, that still makes him quite a bit more efficient than a human.  If I do a good job on him then you're right, he might be able to accomplish far more than I ever could.  I hope he does end up giving more than he takes  :)
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 11:00:02 PM
Ivan, buddy, you don't have to say "sorry" for taking a few breaks, or for getting enough money to support yourself.  Living inside your limits is not the same thing as being selfish.  The only way to be selfish is to make bad choices.  You didn't choose to be a human who needs breaks and food and shelter, and who can't possibly help others at all unless he gets those things.

If you can understand that the people who make medicine have those same limits, and therefore need to be given some money so that they, too, can survive, then you'll be doing well.

Yeah, well, I saw that pattern already. Fighter for a right. Nice, but be careful, someone might be insulted for not expecting much from them.
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: ivan.moony on January 09, 2020, 11:05:13 PM
Quote
The real question is what would your creation, Aquitas do. You have the power to make it does the stuff you could only dream about.

Even Acuitas has some maintenance needs. He can't do anything to help the world unless someone pays the electric bill.  But, that still makes him quite a bit more efficient than a human.  If I do a good job on him then you're right, he might be able to accomplish far more than I ever could.  I hope he does end up giving more than he takes  :)

Wish you well :)
Title: Re: assassinated scientists
Post by: goaty on January 10, 2020, 09:54:20 AM
I respect both of you,  Ivan is being honourable, and writer of minds is being realistic.
The "life problem" is actually an impossible one I think,  theres NO correct option.  Were all going to hell...  >:D

.