Ai Dreams Forum
Artificial Intelligence => General AI Discussion => Human Experience and Psychology => Topic started by: Zero on March 03, 2020, 10:21:36 am
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Couldn't sleep last night, I decided to search the web for a solution to what turns out to be called the hard problem of consciousness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness). And guess what, somebody came up with a really interesting concept about the links between aspects of a subjective experience and plausible properties of a system that experiences them.
It might be one of the most exciting things I've read in years, the approach is very clever and unusual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory)
http://integratedinformationtheory.org/ (http://integratedinformationtheory.org/)
From the Phenomenology to the Mechanisms of Consciousness: Integrated Information Theory 3.0 (https://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003588)
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I'll tell you till the end of the universe, you can have any machine allowed in our physics, a hamster, a monkey, a human, an advanced brain, a rock, a hurricane, an iphone. Neither are more unique or alive. Just the way physics works results in us surviving longer lives using probability theory. I don't care if you are a human that loves or whatever or how embarrassing anything is, you are a fuel finder/burner that seeks food and replication for highest probability of survival like cells/fire/arteries/ideas/neurons/teams/sun do (they all spread to free energy). We accidentally crush rabbits on roads and life is creepy. We just say we and our ideas and offspring are the best, obviously most humans will put themselves first to trick death, we were designed that way since we survived by doing that and ARE here hence why we are here. Same for why Earth nearly perfectly rotates around the sun - it was one out of a trillion and that's why we are here. We aren't lucky to have the physics we have, we are happy like a river to do what it makes us do, flow. Our brain is a network hierarchy that builds data relations to correctly survive, we use past experience probabilities to predict/make the future when we never seen a question like this before and need a new solution using similar past problems. That's why we do better in a world that we know where, what, and when everything is - it helps us predict better and minimize energy needed (free energy therefore). See Hutter Prize for AGI evaluation. Earth will become a complete fractal pattern of nanobot modules. Arteries etc are fractals so to probablistcally reach most areas for dispersing/collecting blood. Nuclear rods, wood, batteries, gasoline all look motionless and cold but can extract free energy, and so does Data Compressors extract free knowledge insights ex. you know cat eats and dog=cat, therefore dog eats too! Probability is raised higher. Like data compressors/extractors, stars and atoms are unstable when too large and give back the captured matter, black holes are just these big bangers that explode free energy from nowhere. And the bigger they get the more they pull in, until explode/extract material. Black hole, white hole. All matter is data and it has patterns because all particles are similar and have only a few types of elementary properties. We repair missing data, that's what all AI does. So does DNA in cells and cities. Earth is just turning into a spreading fire (but as patterns emerging instead) so to repair missing data/employees and use least energy and receive least change (death) probability. Like in the core of a sun, all context workers on Earth interact from afar and local neighbors are most effective, like a dictionary all words explain each other and only few steps is all it takes to get from one word to any other - small world friend network......the trend here is probability, spreading/growing context size to max space, survival, patterns are utilized as a bag of context that all affect each other and are used to extract<>compress new patterns to create yet more, an exponential curve...the growth is really big and strong steady aka sun/humans.....bigger>more interaction>survival.....Earth wants to become an aligned cooperative brain to quickestly propagate brain waves like a magnet or sun and the domain is now 1 big single powerful beam with an aligned powerful focus, magnetism is key and requires less energy like superconductors.
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What do you think we believe about consciousness that is incorrect?
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Most people are not exactly wrong, everyone has good and bad work, but there is a lot of hues in their ways that are ugly. Most think they are alive and special and really do see out their eyeballs on their face yes I mean exactly that, or think there is a spirit ghost in their brain or that they are a conscious awoken machine or even to the point of knowing they are fully a machine but there is some mechanism that unlocks consciousness.....deep breath: no. No there isn't. We can't test such either. We are just machines trying to say 'don't kill me' and it does a fine job! The physics is on our side and that's why we're here also, we are patterns that emerge, yup. We are a collective context hive as explained, teams are stronger and so are multi facts in a brain network as well, and neurons/employees that die everyday are replaced and repairing is more than lost, death rates are like that too. More get a job to live life than those losing a job lol! Get that. We are a machine that wants to hope we are something more or why we want to stay alive, and our food/sex drive is why we hate pain, it's in built, and we like the idea that we are totally separable from matter....but we aren't. We aren't the center of the universe and you may die tomorrow. All our experience like we survive a operation or awake back up and are mostly the same person is flawed because it is just the machine with the same agendas and doing its own thing, none of that means anything about spirits in a machine. You can't have spirits, everything in your house is a big machine, just particles... Besides, I'm making bigger progress by following the scientific ways. Doing so results in more real results.
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Tough concept. I'll work on it though, maybe I'll be able to see it your way and get on a faster path to success. No use getting stuck in my own beliefs, I think people tend to do that too much lol.
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It's also no use being so open-minded that your brains fall out. Locksuit isn't asking you to give up some faith-based belief. He's asking you to deny empirical facts. He thinks he's being scientific, but science depends on observation, and therefore doesn't go around claiming that readily observable phenomena don't exist.
And you can observe your own consciousness, can't you? What else should we call the thing that turns on and off when you come in and out of sleep? If these experiences you're currently experiencing are an illusion, who is being fooled?
You don't have to believe in souls or spirits or ghosts or whatever to accept the fact of your own phenomenal consciousness. What does consciousness necessarily have to do with spirits? It could be there's just something about matter in certain configurations that generates it. But some people lack the imagination to envision how physics could do that, or they're so scared of spirituality that they panic and run away from concepts that even seem as if they might be spiritual. This leads them into absurdities ... like pretending, in defiance of the evidence, that their first-person experience stream doesn't exist.
Based on previous posts, Lock seems to have a hangup about the fact that we can't see consciousness in brains; we can only see some other phenomena that appear to be correlated with it, like certain wave patterns. But why would anyone ask to see consciousness? Do you try to hear light? Do you try to smell music? You already have a perfectly good detector (introspection) for consciousness, albeit it only detects your own and not anybody else's. So use that; you don't need to detect it with your eyes too.
Consciousness is a kind of feeling, and feelings can't be illusory. Oh, they can cause illusions. Suppose I could stimulate the nerves in your hand so that it felt like you were touching a white-hot flame. This might fool you into thinking that there was actually a flame there. And you would be wrong ... the flame wouldn't be real. But the feeling of burning would still be completely real. And the question of whether or not your pain was being caused by a real flame would probably be less important to you than the certain reality of said pain. You would infer the existence of a flame, but you would know the existence of the pain.
So if Lock thinks that ghosts are an illusion, big deal ... that's irrelevant to the present discussion. Phenomenal consciousness might make you think there's a spirit behind it, and it might be fooling you, but the answer to that question doesn't affect the reality of phenomenal consciousness. PC is just a name for first-person experience itself, the feeling of existence itself. PC is the burning sensation, not the flame.
Whether consciousness is in any sense "magic" or spiritual, and whether it makes us more special than the inanimate parts of the universe, are debatable topics. Whether consciousness exists is not a debatable topic. I'm not prepared to reject observed reality for anybody.
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Yes, you need to empirically observe the bear exiting a cave and do real tests to stay grounded in reality, but most of AI/intelligence is about generating predictions using past information and that's why my 'philophiocal preachings' with 0 tests and 0 people saying what I'm saying, are extremely important. If you don't generate ideas, you have no brain to extract free knowledge ex. if cats eat and cats are dogs, then dogs probably eat (34% sure with the data and frequency seen so far). Big data has a massively combinational effect too, it's the powerhorse for AI, just a few facts and it covers millions of analogies.
People that say god exists are my mom that say she can truly feel him in her body and truly twitch on the floor in the rare case from his touch. Yup. She fell to the ground one time in a church. She really hears him talk to her. She is quickened as she calls it. It's just thoughts, it's just the AI doing its thinking. You just have 2 cameras on your skull is all....and a neural hierarchy as a brain that strings together words and groups words run=walk, red=blue. AI can say 'don't kill me', and say 'i really do see x', but it is just doing its reactions. To be in the right, you have to do a lot of thinking and study a lot of data on the internet, everyone thinks they are right without a lot of rethinking! It takes open mind guts. I have understood our thoughts and how we dream in the night, the daydreams (imagining stuff while awake) and how seeing/etc directly anything is all dreaming, yup, remember those illusions HS showed? They modify what your brain predicts it sees using global context vote...the shape, color, brightness, motion, location, what it is, if it is good/sexy (ex. girl standing near car). All humans do is labor and survival, and AI can replace all that, we don't need consciousness and that shows a lot of why there is no consciousness...it's not testable or required.
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"...fuel finder/burner that seeks food and replication for highest probability of survival like cells/fire/arteries/ideas/neurons/teams/sun do (they all spread to free energy). ....."
also the trend here is probability, spreading/growing context size to max space, survival, patterns are utilized as a bag of context that all affect each other and are used to extract<>compress new patterns to create yet more, an exponential curve...the growth is really big and strong steady aka sun/humans.....bigger>more interaction>survival.....Earth wants to become an aligned cooperative brain to quickestly propagate brain waves like a magnet or sun and the domain is now 1 big single powerful beam with an aligned powerful focus, magnetism is key and requires less energy like superconductors; less change; less transdduction; immortality.
it was said the brain looked like a pattern of fabric under the microscope and as well the naked eye, and so will Earth terraform into a fractal.
the more that are born than die example is exactly why technology is evolving at exponential speed today, it can add more context faster and then it is bigger and can add more more faster...repeat
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Lock, would you agree that you are a system of particles which is experiencing the world?
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I agree I am a system of particles that is not experiencing the world. Although I will say I see and love girls houses food etc it doesn't mean I'm magical or experience phelasuralismnal testemonies of the higher nethar for real.
No matter the system of particles, none experience the world, but everything reacts through physics. You have to get by the machine you are first to see why, you are thinking too high of yourself...this doesn't mean you have to hurt yourself just you know the truth...
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So would it be fair to say that we are systems of particles which see the world? If so, what does it take to see the world?
Edit: Or are you saying that although you may say “I see and feelâ€, you don’t actually see or feel. Then what are these things I’m seeing and feeling? Why aren’t they necessary or important? How do you know we are unlucky to have our physics?
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As a side-note: Buddhists believe that consciousness itself is an illusion, and I read somewhere (sorry, don't remember where) that the sensation of "continuity of consciousness", that makes it feels like a stream, is actually a constructed sensation rather than a perceived one.
I think I understand a good part of IIT, but not all of it. I can't get my head around what they call a "cause-effect repertoire". If someone can help me understand it, that would be great!
A mechanism can contribute to consciousness only if it specifies a cause-effect repertoire (information) that is irreducible to independent components. Integration/irreducibility φ is assessed by partitioning the mechanism and measuring what difference this makes to its cause-effect repertoire.
Maybe I'll e-mail and ask them.
However, the phenomenology alone is great to have described so precisely:
The central axioms, which are taken to be immediately evident, are as follows:
Existence: Consciousness exists – it is an undeniable aspect of reality. Paraphrasing Descartes, “I experience therefore I amâ€.
Composition: Consciousness is compositional (structured): each experience consists of multiple aspects in various combinations. Within the same experience, one can see, for example, left and right, red and blue, a triangle and a square, a red triangle on the left, a blue square on the right, and so on.
Information: Consciousness is informative: each experience differs in its particular way from other possible experiences. Thus, an experience of pure darkness is what it is by differing, in its particular way, from an immense number of other possible experiences. A small subset of these possible experiences includes, for example, all the frames of all possible movies.
Integration: Consciousness is integrated: each experience is (strongly) irreducible to non-interdependent components. Thus, experiencing the word “SONO†written in the middle of a blank page is irreducible to an experience of the word “SO†at the right border of a half-page, plus an experience of the word “NO†on the left border of another half page – the experience is whole. Similarly, seeing a red triangle is irreducible to seeing a triangle but no red color, plus a red patch but no triangle.
Exclusion: Consciousness is exclusive: each experience excludes all others – at any given time there is only one experience having its full content, rather than a superposition of multiple partial experiences; each experience has definite borders – certain things can be experienced and others cannot; each experience has a particular spatial and temporal grain – it flows at a particular speed, and it has a certain resolution such that some distinctions are possible and finer or coarser distinctions are not.
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"So would it be fair to say that we are systems of particles which see the world? If so, what does it take to see the world?
Edit: Or are you saying that although you may say %u201CI see and feel%u201D, you don%u2019t actually see or feel. Then what are these things I%u2019m seeing and feeling? Why aren%u2019t they necessary or important? How do you know we are unlucky to have our physics?"
I know you feel alive and say things, and say you see all your visual field etc.......but everythng you are doing (your bran, arm, cells...) is particles reacting.....you are totally a machine.......you can't create anything to see the world, as you are reading this neither of us know/see/hear English or visual understanding, nor Chinese, but we both have brains tat can work with English etc rather. You just need a camera and the right input/output mappings for responses and correct memory activation which results in linked motor actions.....and you can see all this if you study it hard....yup, we are machines. Besides, have you seen inside a human body? It's all blood n tubulars n stuffz and not pretty atractor like the outside was evolved to be.
Because physics is how everything works, set rules and no magic. And I proved it that all particles can either only folow set laws or act random. Therefore, we are happy to be doing what we are doing in physics, the physics we have, as we have no choice. We arnt lucky to have these physics.
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I know you feel alive
You also feel alive? That's what I mean by consciousness. I think feeling alive is really important to replicate in AGI’s. What would be the point of anything without it?
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No I don't 'feel alive'. I just love stimuli and thoughts that are linked to stimuli (games, science, collecting data, building shelter).. What do I need 'feel alive' being said out my mouth when I am happy without even hearing it?? In fact we were all (including animals) born as simple-thinking things that would never even be able to say 'i feel alive' or 'aliens got the fabricated jojopans peace yeall' and that just wanted to get the taste on its tongue, the mates in its view, and the other stimuli going. Around age 6 or so for humans the 'seasoned thoughts' start rollin on in like God, space exploration, forests, shame, rules, norms, fairy tales, algebra, accepting death, etc, anything, seriously, anything, look at all those words in a dictionary. You aren't born that way. Simply the group communication enables high level thoughts to develop and after a few thousand years are super crazy and get instantly shared to newborns. The direct stimuli is strong, the thoughts are stimuli too but simply are anything (any image or text etc) strung together as sequences in a hierarchy and heterarchy, and it is used to get the survival stimuli (food/sex). Animals usually just think using vision, and they don't think about God etc because their thoughts aren't advanced enough from past generations, they are lost when they die after 9 years in a dog's life.
Let's get back into the jungle. In a virtual world.
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No I don't 'feel alive'. I just love stimuli and thoughts that are linked to stimuli
Alright, then we gotta get AGI to love stimuli and thoughts linked to them. Again, what would be the point of anything happening in the world without an opinion such as love to accompany it?
What do I need 'feel alive' being said out my mouth when I am happy without even hearing it??
I agree, you don't need to believe things like "i feel alive" or talk about invented concepts, in order to be happy.
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"Alright, then we gotta get AGI to love stimuli and thoughts linked to them. Again, what would be the point of anything happening in the world without an opinion such as love to accompany it?"
Yes, survival, our true desire is food and mating, yum.... :DD Gettin all giggly over here.
Just gotta make the AGI brain a maze of images strung together, and it is trying to find/think through the path in the maze that leads to the best survival stimulises and least bad stimulises. The rewards are like when it says, chips, CHIPS! Oh, factories makes chips? FACTORIES! FACTORIES!! I LOVE FACTORIES now...eventually it loves shelter, rockets, chairs, tools, etc too. It uses translation/ word2vec to transfer reward to new artificial goal node that indirectly gets the agenda_root goal nodes triggered. Ever change your job, but still work for the money? Money=food!
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Alright thanks.
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...we don't need consciousness and that shows a lot of why there is no consciousness...it's not testable or required.
Oscar Meyer doesn't make baloney like that. I'll test that theory and prove you wrong as many times as you like. Once should be more than enough.
With all due respect, let me stand behind you and get my arm around your neck for 5 short seconds. Your will lose blood supply to your brain, go limp, and slip to the floor. Eyes wide open staring blankly into space, out like a light unconscious to the world.
You'll regain consciousness in 5 seconds or so and be none the worse for it. Your theory will not survive.
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that's called the off button
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that's called the off button
You don't use it to shut down for a rest period like you power down a machine. You can call it the Off Button if you think that skirts the issue, inept as it was at doing it. I could call it a kill switch as easily and shut down consciousness permanently.
No matter what you call it, it disproves your whole argument:
we don't need consciousness and that shows a lot of why there is no consciousness...it's not testable or required.
You need full consciousness to function in that scenario. Lesser degrees of functionality are caused by drugs or alcohol. Increased levels associated with Adrenalin and a fight or flight response.
All those random concepts and terms you throw against the wall like spaghetti to see what sticks are ideas you've come up with and no doubt logical to you, but fallacious flights of fantasy for the most part in my observation. Cases in Point:
"it was said the brain looked like a pattern of fabric under the microscope and as well the naked eye, and so will Earth terraform into a fractal."
I must have missed the memo on this one. What special insight into the celestial planing of the Planet are you privileged to that brought you to this conclusion? Runes? Tarot? Fuzzy Logic?
"Earth wants to become an aligned cooperative brain to quickestly propagate brain waves like a magnet or sun and the domain is now 1 big single powerful beam with an aligned powerful focus, magnetism is key and requires less energy like superconductors; less change; less transdduction; immortality."
Did you connect to the angular momentum of the Planets Consciousness to receive this revelation? A Divine Mantra to vibrate at the frequency of the Earth's navel? Transcendental Meditation, p'haps? Sublingual L25 this time?
"Simply the group communication enables high level thoughts to develop and after a few thousand years are super crazy and get instantly shared to newborns. The direct stimuli is strong, the thoughts are stimuli too but simply are anything (any image or text etc) strung together as sequences in a hierarchy and heterarchy, and it is used to get the survival stimuli (food/sex)."
The Behavioral flow is Stimulis-Response-Consequence. That's been my view of and practice of Behavioral Psychology in practical terms.
Yeah, it's super easy plus fun now with Blockly, I am a pro programmer now.
I'm happy for you. I'm a Programmer of a different sort and a Professional in every sense of the term with 45 years experience:
https://psychologyforum.com/threads/are-we-programmed-beings.1737/#post-79389
Those are the cold, hard facts of it that I've only alluded to here, and will never speak it in any more detail here.
4 of those years in a Clinical Environment with experience working with those afflicted with Behavior Disorders, Developmentally Disabilities, Mental Illness and nearly every form of Abnormal psychology. 5 years experience as Manager of Group Homes and doing followup visits to clients who made the transition into the community most likely to get into trouble. But those as a Programmer my most highly prized, polished and developed skill I possess,
I saw somewhere you read a book on brains for a year and had a good understanding on the human brain. You can map every neuron in the bran and not have a better understanding what makes human beans tick than I have a innate grasp of. Or achieve the ability to manipulate them at my level, as my whole skillset is based on it.
In Psychology, the Dark Triad Personality Test refers to the personality traits of Narcissism, Machiavellianism, and Psychopathy. They are called "dark" because of their malevolent qualities. I'm Highest rated as Machiavellian, which came as no surprise for the depths of my planing, and just short of that on the Psychopathy end of it, which assists me in carrying them out. Thankfully, I score extremely low as a narcissist and they are the worst of all. The rest a welcome boost to my expertise and competency compliment in skill level.
I never stopped practicing my Behavioral skills and the last 20 years afforded me the perfect place to practice, develop, hone and upgrade my skills exponentially as an Independent Entity to use as as I saw fit. The Internet. Where all my Behavior Mod verbal techniques translate well into text and no shortage of opportunity to practice my art.
Think you're a machine? When I created Siseneg I thought it would be funny if he looked like the human and me the bot. He looks the part. I chose an avatar and invented a name to suit me as that machine. When my programming kicks in there are no questions how to proceed or feelings associated with my actions more than my computer running a program. Right or wrong, good or bad always relative to the situation how I was Programmed to be a Programmer.
However, that is not always the case. I was ready to go home and die but couldn't live with the thought of having made my female doctor feel bad by doing it, since she was very nice, so I agreed to everything when I didn't really want to do anything. I possess and can identify all emotions and all decisions mine to make of my own free will as I see fit.
I'm not down on you personally, LOCKSUIT. I've said before I didn't see how you could create AI without knowing the workings of the human brain. I see more progress here in that area of AL, but a long way to go to understand human beans as I see it from where I sit.
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i have gone far.......maybe i'll explain it clearer in another movie one day.....
""it was said the brain looked like a pattern of fabric under the microscope and as well the naked eye, and so will Earth terraform into a fractal.""
>> why did i say this? It is in ray kurzwiel's book i read 4 years back. Sorta commonsense; brain is just made of neurons and connections everywhere and areas can take over other areas with little physical change. The knowledge engraved in the network also has patterns and is formed to be organized so have less wasted activations and longer travel times.
""Earth wants to become an aligned cooperative brain to quickestly propagate brain waves like a magnet or sun and the domain is now 1 big single powerful beam with an aligned powerful focus, magnetism is key and requires less energy like superconductors; less change; less transdduction; immortality.""
>> A brain and a team of brains have a lot in common, nodes cooperate and find aligned values, and use less energy therefore. You can't have a large scale dis-aligned hive, there won't be evil and scale at the same time, such would be 5000 smaller hives each sabotaging each other. Wasted energy causes heat, a superconductor that doesn't leak energy keeps it in a loop forever (no death) did you know? Transduction causes heat disturbance. That's why a smooth aligned flow results in energy savings. Brain waves are found in a team of brains too, team wave. The sun has huge magnetic loops that hold material, watch a few sun videos!! The combinational gravity results in more size growth and more explosion loss hence suns are hot stars on fire, same for nukes, wood on fire, cells, etc, they extract like data compressors FREE energy/insights from Big Data and the fire/cells spread as a chain reaction finding/burning all food energy resources until physics settles to equilibrium 'utopia'. Too large planets and atoms don't live long and are unstable and explode radiation giving it back. Immortality is physics, things come to a rest state, and the patterns in the universe allow encodings to be learnt in a brain that can solve unseen problems using big data context and can breed/repair data faster than lose it to survive, they want to sort all of Earth into a fractal pattern at all levels so they know where when and what all is so to use least energy and predict better hence survive more probably.
Lastly, if you're hit in the head, your brain doesn't get external sensory/motor stream I/O, but it continues dreaming, predicting away. When you close your eyes, you also have less input, but you still feel, anyway if you lay back and stay still you can be like knocked out basically and imagine stuff daydreaming away, the only difference in sleep mode is you don't generate desired rewarded nodes, mostly only random nodes that you don't directly care about. As for our shut down switch, the only way to do that for humans is to be killed, we have no off switch. You're always dreaming, but in sleep mode you most usually don't self activate mission nodes (sadly).
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I'm sorry if I offended you, LOCKSUIT, as that was not my intent. I like you as much, if not a little more because you're so vocal, as anyone here and I like and respect everyone here. But when I debate it's to make a point, Restraint merely a tactic I use on occasion to draw the person into a trap I've already set. Even so, I know from past experience my words can seem harsh when I don't mean them to be. So, please, forgive me if I've offended you.
That said, and back to the point, I don't think you know what you're talking about here and all that follows nothing but conjecture on your part:
Lastly, if you're hit in the head, your brain doesn't get external sensory/motor stream I/O, but it continues dreaming, predicting away. When you close your eyes, you also have less input, but you still feel, anyway if you lay back and stay still you can be like knocked out basically and imagine stuff daydreaming away, the only difference in sleep mode is you don't generate desired rewarded nodes, mostly only random nodes that you don't directly care about. As for our shut down switch, the only way to do that for humans is to be killed, we have no off switch. You're always dreaming, but in sleep mode you most usually don't self activate mission nodes (sadly).
How many times have you been rendered unconscious, LOCKSUIT? What real-life experiences in having your switch flipped to the Off position led you to draw that conclusion?
I was knocked out cold when I used my Dodge Ramcharger to turn a railroad telegraph pole into a 3 piece set on the ground. The last thing I remember was dirt flying in my face where the windshield used to be. I woke up laying on the inside roof of the now upside down truck without a clue as to what went on in the interim or how long I was out. (I'll make you a good deal on the set, I paid the railroad the $384 they billed me for it but will let it go cheap.)
I just got put under general anesthesia Feb 14th for the closest thing I got to a Valentine. The Anesthesiologist used Propophnyl, the same thing Michael Jackson wanted to take a little nap. They had a music video going on the Surgical Unit computer. I remember telling him to put on some Tool, and then I woke up in the recovery room. It was exactly like someone flipped my Off switch and I knew absolutely nothing that went on during the between time till it flipped back to On.
It's the 3rd time I've been put under in 6 months and it's the same way every time. It's no stress for me whatsoever because I know I'll go under, wake up and it be over with no memory of what went on while I was out. I'm much more stressed waiting for a dental appointment, unless I get knocked out. Then I look forward to it.
It's the same thing when you have a tooth extracted under general, only the euphoric effects much more pronounced and longer lasting. I told the guy who brought me to my appt. (You can't drive yourself.) that whatever he did, to please not let all those Nurses have sex with me while I was knocked out.
When I woke up I told them they hadn't even done anything, but my tooth was gone and all the nurses winked and smiled at me as they passed by the door. I highly recommend it if you have a tooth you aren't really using that much, or ever get a bad one that needs pulled.
My original offer still stands. I'll put the Sleeper on you as many times as you think required to validate your theory and admit it if I'm wrong. I've done it many times and will make sure to help you down to the ground so you don't hurt yourself. You never know, when your eyes are wide open staring into space you might even see the Supreme Being, or a rerun of Monty Python's Flying Circus.
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The takeaway I got from trying to combine my understanding, with Lock’s description of his understanding, is that the separate concept of consciousness is redundant. It isn’t an additional piece of the AGI puzzle which needs to be solved. THIS is just what its like to be a machine of the type Lock is describing. I don’t know, but its an intriguing idea.
I got my wisdom teeth pulled a while back under general anesthesia. I remember telling everyone “OOOOh! NOW I’m really starting to feel it!†I was nervous beforehand but going under was super fun. Then there was a time jump to someone patting my cheek and telling me to wake up. Which apparently worked. The only way it was different from sleep is that the blank spot where memory should have been felt white instead of black. Whatever that means, maybe a result of additional brain functions being offline. Sadly not much euphoria, just time passed rather quickly for the first half hour, and then I just felt slightly intoxicated for a couple hours.
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Hmmm. That's not how I read Lock at all. I think he's saying that what it's like to be him, or what it's like to be the kind of AGI he's describing, is also what it's like to be a building, a rock, or a pile of dirt. The only difference between you and the dirt heap, according to Locksuit, is that you're a more complicated system that maintains its form better (via all that eating and mating). Your movements toward positive stimuli and away from negative stimuli have no more behind them than loose dirt sliding downhill; you don't actually love, hate, enjoy or suffer anything, that part is all fake. He's trying to convince us that he, and all the rest of us, are p-zombies -- entities that are supremely good at appearing to have experiences, while actually experiencing nothing.
On another forum, he implied that it was absurd for anyone to believe that "pain actually hurts."
Maybe he is a p-zombie, how should I know. <sarcasm> But I'm certainly not.
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Whatever THIS is, it is, instead of is not. Lock does stuff and thinks that he does stuff. So there we go. The thing he seems to disagree with is humans insinuating they’re partially detached from physics, when they say “I have free will†or “I am consciousâ€.
He has done his best to distill the physics of AGI, and says he’s got the mechanism figured out. Ok, Occam’s razor then, the mechanism of AGI must create THIS. Granted, the whole discussion is probably semantics, unless someone believes they are magical, or unless Lock believes there is nothing. I think we’re talking about the same thing; we’re just deriving different meanings from identical words, because we've had different experiences with those words.
But going back to using consciousness in a non-magical sense, in place of THIS, the interesting possibility to consider was that consciousness could be a natural property of feedback reverberations, (or however you want to describe what AGI does), much like gravity is a natural property of mass. Which is a nice simple alternative to some kind of “Holy Grail†circuit.
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Your movements toward positive stimuli and away from negative stimuli have no more behind them than loose dirt sliding downhill; you don't actually love, hate, enjoy or suffer anything, that part is all fake. He's trying to convince us that he, and all the rest of us, are p-zombies -- entities that are supremely good at appearing to have experiences, while actually experiencing nothing.
I'm not nearly as skilled as most here when it comes to programming a bot from scratch, but that is my area of expertise. I learned it at an early age and it's ingrained into my psyche as a big part of who I am as a person.
All my experience in Behavior Mod involved induction of "unpleasant" physical or psychological stimuli to extinguish inappropriate behaviors so the person could be found appropriate for a less restrictive environment than an institution. Namely, back to the Group Home the same behavior made them no longer deemed appropriate for and had landed them there.
Bad as it was at face value, it was at the time considered in their best interest and standard practice. In reality it was evil to the very core and tantamount to torture. It removes all doubt in your mind about the reality of the experience when you experience it with them as a part of it. Good and bad being relative to the situation later considered a misguided application of the theory in that instance.
I got my wisdom teeth pulled a while back under general anesthesia. I remember telling everyone “OOOOh! NOW I’m really starting to feel it!†I was nervous beforehand but going under was super fun. Then there was a time jump to someone patting my cheek and telling me to wake up. Which apparently worked. The only way it was different from sleep is that the blank spot where memory should have been felt white instead of black.
I experience no sense of the passage of time whatsoever. It's like flipping the off switch on a light bulb. Nothing happening till it's switched back on.
After I thought about it, when I had that thingy done the 14th I woke up while still in the Surgical Unit. I don't know how long they had been done but when I woke up was wide awake. The Doctor was still there and I was asking questions about how it went and if there were any dietary restrictions. Not having eaten solid foods for the past 2 days and a Hardees biscuit sounding good.
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Rue, I can hear naiveness in your voice. You keep talking about consciousness. I see through that like glass.
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-portrait-of-young-woman-looking-through-window-pane-of-a-cafe-76380857.html
I've been unconscious once from hitting my head, for exactly 2-3 seconds. It went all black or there was a blank spot missing. Simply my external I/O (input/output) shut down and my dreaming however continued, but with nothing real to drag it along and no mission nodes activated most usually (nighttime sleep is such). As you should know, you don't remember most your dreams except recent ones that have energy that didn't fade away yet, it depends, if they involve sex you may remember them more probably, I have had dream sex over 25 times. There's nothing spiritual here, it's all mechanics.
Yes WoM, the human body/race maintains it's form better by eating/mating and fleeing danger (all AI repairs missing data; hole/frame/word fill-in (prediction), translation(recognition), segmentation, and you won't find any other uses but those 3 categories). Resulting in it believing it is higher and more alive or something, "can't pin point it" the machine says. Obviously the human machine hates pain/death, so it won't think it is ok or acceptable in any reason or why, 'no buts allowed'. It won't understand why it is "lesser" than the "best" or is "ok" for it to die. So you have to see throug this to see what you are/ are doing. All your reactions to this show I was right, yous can't even believe it.
Yes Rue I probably voice my opinions too hard and move too fast, I'm trying to get more progress in technology going by moving confidently forward with new theories and am trying my best...
What do you mean "that whatever he did, to please not let all those Nurses have sex with me while I was knocked out"
....
That's my biggest dream come true, full down to heart. Nurse, come here and cure me, make me feel better and at ease. I hope she takes me in, and uses me all up and locks me in her basement for good. Please do.
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Rue, I can hear naiveness in your voice. You keep talking about consciousness. I see through that like glass.
I chew you up and spit you out like yesterdays bubblegum and this what I get for apologizing... But you're young, haven't got a clue and no amount of raking you over coals would be productive.
It's the School of Hard Knocks for you with many life lessons to come I won't have to be a part of teaching.
What do you mean "that whatever he did, to please not let all those Nurses have sex with me while I was knocked out"
....
That's my biggest dream come true, full down to heart. Nurse, come here and cure me, make me feel better and at ease. I hope she takes me in, and uses me all up and locks me in her basement for good. Please do.
And you think I'm naive...
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Whatever THIS is, it is, instead of is not. Lock does stuff and thinks that he does stuff. So there we go.
Oh, I quite agree, "THIS" is obviously, undeniably real. That's why Lock can't quite avoid being self-contradictory in the things he says. But I think you're giving him too much benefit of the doubt; the thing he's arguing for really is that absurd.
Granted, the whole discussion is probably semantics, unless someone believes they are magical, or unless Lock believes there is nothing.
I think Lock does believe there is nothing. Because nobody here has been claiming that they are magical -- I explicitly said that you don't have to believe in magic to believe in consciousness -- and yet Lock keeps arguing with us.
Am I wrong about what you believe, Lock? What exactly do you mean when you say that the human machine hates death? Hating something is an experience, and you insisted that you don't have experiences. You also talk about being happy; happiness is an experience. The sensation of food on your tongue is an experience. I'm not saying "experience" in the sense of "religious experience," so get that out of your head.
What's the difference between you or me and a pile of dirt? Would your death be as insignificant as knocking the dirt pile over?
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Yes WoM you are following correctly.
I do experience eating etc, I often wonder how it's possible I'm sensing for real even though I'm a machine. But this doesn't mean I'm not a machine, I've simply got some cultured beliefs and thoughts that bugs etc don't have. I can't shake them all off.
"What exactly do you mean when you say that the human machine hates death?"
We will run, say things on cue, invent things, etc. It's like a bunch of iphones escaping the recycler at the garbage depot. We're the iphones, machines.
"Hating something is an experience, and you insisted that you don't have experiences."
Not in the alive magical way. I'm a machine that stores senses like images, sounds etc. All particles. All my senses are linked by tether to motor programs. As I said before, our context bag size etc is our 'consciousness', the algorithm uses certain weights for data searching/generation over other less desired or less likely outputs.
"What's the difference between you or me and a pile of dirt? Would your death be as insignificant as knocking the dirt pile over?"
What do you think these machines experience? Why do you draw a line between living and non living? The only difference is they duplicate and fight to survive. And if they can predict well with high probability, they can survive more likely longer. That's why they search for patterns and create new patterns. Self organization.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/crashed-spacecraft-might-have-put-water-bears-moon-180972840/
https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/447724/view/deep-ocean-worm-sem
https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/447727/view
http://www.themalaysiantimes.com.my/house-dust-mites-cause-respiratory-allergies/
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmos-magazine.imgix.net%2Ffile%2Fspina%2Fphoto%2F8334%2F281016_micromonsters_3.jpg%3Ffit%3Dclip%26w%3D835&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmosmagazine.com%2Fbiology%2Fmicro-monsters-up-close-and-personal&tbnid=90rcmnuxzgSfZM&vet=12ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg..i&docid=Zf3W91W4BkTh9M&w=835&h=835&q=weirdest%20looking%20virus&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg#h=835&imgdii=U20HalhHPnkzOM:&vet=12ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg..i&w=835
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmos-magazine.imgix.net%2Ffile%2Fspina%2Fphoto%2F8334%2F281016_micromonsters_3.jpg%3Ffit%3Dclip%26w%3D835&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcosmosmagazine.com%2Fbiology%2Fmicro-monsters-up-close-and-personal&tbnid=90rcmnuxzgSfZM&vet=12ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg..i&docid=Zf3W91W4BkTh9M&w=835&h=835&q=weirdest%20looking%20virus&hl=en&ved=2ahUKEwiLkq3JlovoAhVNDq0KHbcPC2gQMygTegUIARCKAg
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Nearly-Natural-Indoor-3-ft-Cactus-Artificial-Plant-6328/305531143
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I do experience eating etc, I often wonder how it's possible I'm sensing for real even though I'm a machine.
"Sensing for real" is what we mean by consciousness. "Experiencing eating" is what we mean by consciousness. If you want to say that you are a machine then, for the purposes of this particular argument, that's fine. But you're a conscious machine.
What do you think these machines experience? Why do you draw a line between living and non living?
Where I really draw the line is between things with brains or nervous systems, and things without. Human consciousness is the type I know about most directly, and it's been observed that it's tied to our brains; if you cut off oxygen or blood flow to your brain, you lose consciousness. So if I need a functioning brain to have experiences, why should I assume that things which don't have a brain or anything resembling a brain (like a fake cactus) have experiences?
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I experience no sense of the passage of time whatsoever. It's like flipping the off switch on a light bulb. Nothing happening till it's switched back on.
Yes, like I fell out of time and went back again. The time jump happens on the outside. Probably like dying. I have this theory about death which seems reasonable to me, if its at all possible to return to existence in the presumably infinite time and space ahead of now, then that’s the next thing we’ll experience. Instant random reincarnation, none of us will get a moments rest outside of life, because time is for the living.
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WoM that's what I *used to* think - things without a nervous system / brain aren't feeling or thinking or alive or making decisions.........strong nope here, all particles make decisions. You are doing what I said - trying to pin point something. The nervous system is not any different than a rock both are just particles. Again: a computer can beep and print 'i'm alive, don't shut me off' and can kick you if get too close (works well if well done) but it doesn't make it any more of a machine than it is. The use/defending of the machine's life matters more than merely saying it feels. And 'feeling' btw is one thng of many things, wood can catch fire, springs can fling out from being clenched, etc, these are just feeling too, they are reactions in particles.
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WoM that's what I *used to* think - things without a nervous system / brain aren't feeling or thinking or alive or making decisions.........strong nope here, all particles make decisions.
So I can just rip my brain right out of my skull and stick it in a blender, and the rest of me that's left will keep on feeling, thinking, having experiences, etc.? My tongue will enjoy food just as much when there's no brain connected to it? Nothing important about the world will have changed?
You're funny.
The nervous system is not any different than a rock both are just particles.
They are different kinds of particles arranged in different ways, and therefore they potentially have different physics associated with them. Just as some groups of particles are magnetic and others are not ... some groups of particles are conscious, and others are not. (Maybe. I want to be clear that I'm just putting this forward as one possibility. We don't know for sure what causes brains to be conscious, but this is an explanation that is compatible with your worldview.)
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Not working. Must sleep now.
The body is trying to store, recall, create discoveries, survive death, breed, eat.....like all bacteria do. Obviously you are talking about your sensory data, makes total sense. It controls most your survival. And like I said, you won't go against your agenda and hence cannot easily see yourself as anything but incredible, hence you think you really see and love life but actually those senses that trigger you are just the 'survival food' you want and therefore you are totally against belittling yourself and lovvve those survival senses that are so important and believe you really do get/see/taste/are something extremely important.
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I rest my case, HS. Lock "thinks there is nothing." His opinion is that we don't really "love life," don't really "get/see/taste," don't really anything.
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Ok… yes. Lock seems to believe in all the observable properties of individual particles, but not in all the observable properties of complex interactions of particles. But so-called individual particles are themselves made of things, and those things have unique properties, probably as a result of the properties of yet more constituents. He is basically attributing superior reality to one layer of complexity. Importance is a property not found at this Newtonian level complexity. Still real though, just looking in the wrong place. Things are indeed important only because of this emergent “importanceâ€. It’s like the flow of electricity making things magnetic. Its a phenomenon coaxed from groups of particles, only to be found at larger scale/complexity, but still not collapsing like a house without a foundation.
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So then what happens to the proverbial "brain-in-a-box"? What if a brain in a large glass container was connected via optic nerves to a pair of eyeballs and also to both auditory sensory canals and lastly to a vocal synthesizer for speech but nothing else.
Here we have a brain floating, suspended in a warm solution and kept alive by a blood-based oxygen-rich solution so that it may continue to "think" and experience things around it.
No body yet it (the brain) can see, hear and speak. What, therefore, must it think? It is certainly in no position to bark orders nor if it did, the scientist/researcher (no matter how mad), is not at all honored to comply.
What of properties, particles, feelings, emotions? How do they enter into this scenario and how would the brain react? Yes, it was a real human brain and not a chimp or other animal. After all, we couldn't post the "No animals were harmed during this experiment" sign.
Thoughts? I have read a couple of Sci-Fi stories in this regard before many years ago but the idea intrigued me, thus bringing it here.
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Definitely doable Art if we had the right machine to host the brain.
The senses is the brain are the most critical part of a human's survival. So senses to you are important, you love experiencing things and especially the vital stimuli directly especially. It's no wonder you are influxed at sensory/motor and won't mock food/sight-seeing (data collection). You think you are very important, you are a good survivor.
Out of all the possible machines, only a few types can maintain their form. Out of all the possible machines, why do you think you are more alive so so so oh so much more than a table or rat? Because you force yourself to resist all your objecting surroundings (by using senses as your guide). So you talk highly of yourself (avoids succumbing to death) and your sensory experiences.
There is a such thing as combinational interaction, like in the core of a sun or a neuron that weighs in all judging factors tallying them up to 1 spot. Atoms's gravity affects things from afar. But this isn't life or aliveness or consciousness. Machines are machines, some do different things, some don't last long either (large unstable planets (stars) or large unstable atoms (stars) which will radiate it back out like a big bang, they are really hot like fire and spread as a chain reaction, so do cells, humans, internet data, etc).
I was saying earlier Humans and neurons and magnetic domains want to align as a Big Data "context bag" to go with the flow and use least energy by using "distribution sharing" and can act as a powerful team beam focus united (you can't have an evil giant united force, like a city or nanobot fog sphere (highest technology that repairs instantly)). These brain waves propagate faster with least energy needed. If we find patterns in big data and create new patterns then we can make Earth a complete nanobot fractal pattern so we know what when where all is and use less resources wasted! Organization/patterns emerging results in higher survival probability using Probability Theory. Such large magnetic superconductor like a sun or superconductor maintains all its energy forever wasting none, no Transduction, no change (death, or birth), if it all goes the same way in its loop and no clashing then it Cools Down and entropy is lowered. The combined energy field uses less energy and is stronger, it lasts longer (immortality). If it is pattern like domains that are aligned, it is stronger and uses least energy for transportation. Earth's field is aligning by patterns emerging and becomes a fractal in the end made of nanobots. It will become like a magnetar star, burning up all resources (hopefully it collects as much as burns so no Paperclip Effect).
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One of the main methods the human brain uses for learning is repetition, the constant repeated exposure to information/ knowledge is slowly engrained into your connectome. The compound effect is subliminal, your sub conscious remembers everything, just the fact you have read or seen something, lays down neural markers which are used during sleep to ingrain the engram's into your knowledge base.
Advertising companies have known and leveraged these phenomena for decades; if you hear something enough times it will have a noticeable effect on you. Everything you see or read has an effect on your mind set and mental abilities… and no one is immune. As advertisers know, what bolsters the effect is attention, if they can get you to pay attention, even for a split second, even if you don’t believe what they are saying, they have done their work… and you will be affected.
My point being…reading nonsensical ramblings, especially if you are concentrating, trying to decode/ make sense of what the writer is saying… does effect your mind/ skill set/ knowledge and intelligence, this phenomenon can not only affect what you think, but how you think, your intelligence is based/ driven by your knowledge base after all… be careful what you feed your brain.
:)
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Oh! I have a very elegant proof for my discovery that large powerful systems can't be evil within and all its units are aligned. > Remember back I said why Earth won't become a single large superiuntelligence and will be a superintelligence made of distributed workers (not a single large brain, but many brains/bodies, (though the many brains do act as 1 brain still lol))? And how I explained why, that gazillions of bodies would have to access 1 single memory plus from far away resulting in long access times, seeing that 'a large brain' should technically mean it only has 1 of each feature adn no duplicate inormation? Well this discovery I made, is the very answer to the supersphere's inner units dis-alignment battle; you can do more if you have little stop shops everywhere with duplicate information close to home, a distributed network. That means a large system is most powerful only when all units are aligned and distribute/share their work and each node only concetrates on a little bit of work, not centralism. This goes for all things, info, food, energy, etc. This means the most powerful technology/super organism planet made of nanobots will be a fully aligned unit system where all of its units are aligned and share (at least, within, the size of the sphere is determined by where its disalignement begins) and are a fractal, and therefore any system the same size with many smaller spheres (like a soap bath, not 1 giant bubble) will be weaker, meaning if a superpower company emerges on Earth - it will be very powerful but most its inner units will be aligned. Though this doesn't mean we willl be aligned, if we are weaker it can hurt us if it's survival probability will rise...
You can actually see on Earth the fractal pattern emerging, look at Google Earth or Earth city overview images, you see major highways, skinny roads, so to probablistically distribute all resources efficiently. Small areas that are less used have poor skinny roads etc. Homes are aligned in housage areas, stores in store area, energy department, cus it's effecient. They know where everything is, who, when, what, sort-of. It was said on a compression forum that more and more little fixes/code add-ons are needed fo the offroad little precise things that the major codes don't cover, the low hanging fruit is first pulled and left is less ideas to benefit on unless you look harder. Of course your looking comes easier when the next generation of technology moves on, then it's like low hanging fruit ALL over again, easy they say!
My point is Earh becoming a pattern that spreads out its work to share the labor is most efficient and uses least energy.
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The human brain is continuously making/ breaking/ strengthening connections/ synapse as we experience reality, these connections obviously play an important role in our general intelligence/ mind set/ imagination and perspective. As I stated, repetition is a key factor in learning, and we all need to be aware of how it can affect us generally, so we can actively avoid bad influences.
There is a set of mental phenomena with similar attributes, you are probably familiar with a variation know as ‘writers block’.
Our psyche/ personality is constructed/ maintained by the diversity of your life and life experiences and it’s very important to have a varied set of daily experiences to keep a balanced mind. Spending too much time concentrating on one topic, especially with limited sleep, will wear a rut/ grove in your mental process; it will impede/ blinker your imagination and intelligence.
At best it will make you repetitious/ cyclic, you will make tenuous connections between diverse concepts and get frustrated that your fellow man just doesn't understand or believe you.
At worst… you will sit inside your enclosure/ cage and rock back and forth.
:)
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You said the same thing 3 times. Yes you need Diverse Big Data. For a lot of different problems you can then see the frequency of what occurs next. Then on unseen problems you can pick probable solution based on frequency.
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goodies ahead >
Did you ever notice how fire spreads to "batteries" I'll call them of which the fire can unlock free energy from - like wood, fuel tanks, etc? It finds free energy and grows in size, burning it all up. Cells do this too, they duplicate and find free food and hence free energy to burn up. Nuclear chain reactions in the rods in a nuke also spread to the rod atoms and unlock giant free energy. There's a pattern! And that's probably the biggest pattern you'll find. You can easily see on the internet all AI need Big Data to find such patterns. In big diverse data you can find patterns, fundamental ways the universe works and how to even cure cancer - a terribly spreading cell that cripples its host. Even in the brain, the more data you know, the more you can generate for free, ex. cats eat, cats sleep, etc, dogs eat, dogs sleep, etc, cats lick, and so there's a high probability dogs lick too, meaning you can artificially grow your big database the, bigger it is. So big data, is, big big big. It's an exponential curve. 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, the nanobots replicate like fire. Humans also spread, like fire, burning up all fuel found. So far we've learnt here: free energy and free insight extraction from compressed matter. Lossless data compression, the Hutter Prize uses, is a 500,000 euros prize to invent a good and fast text compressor (all the best compressors are advanced AI predictors using the last hundred letters seen in the string as local context and the whole file seen up to where is is global storage tree made of strings ex. abc abb aba), so it can extract free insights as explained how cat=dog, because it can predict the next letter/word very well and skip storing the original size, hence it can work on unseen data. Mine I made already talks to itself and stores what it hears as does so and the best compressors sort the wiki articles by topic and group words etc. They can compress data by ~7.5 times for 100MB, and ~9 times for 1GB, as said its exponentially powerful, every word in the dictionary explains each other - small world network you can step to any word just a few nodes away indirectly and local nodes directly linked that are seen beside or are very similar words/phrases are most affected ex. mom<>son not and I only affect the president a bit. In a brain, brain waves propagate up the hierarchy where words/objects are made of smaller parts in the lower layers, phrases are made of smaller phrases or words. Faster propagation and less energy used is key, the fire wants the most energy found and none wasted. The brain prunes neuron nodes so the brain waves can more quickly propagate up the hierarchy and recognize a high level big object/sentence and what comes next therefore. Have you noticed how Earth is already becoming sorted? Look at satellite images. Homes, stores, computer chip mem stores, etc are grouped and aligned like rows along roads, street systems are made for least travel and major highways (like arteries) are where most needed while the small infrequent areas need "special code programmed for them", a fractal pattern emerging, the domains are aligning so the brain waves in the team can travel farther with less work by following the flow for free energy, like a strong magnet's field is Aligned and the potential is high. Superconductors also don't leak energy, they maintain their form 'immortally' and are a strong magnet therefore who's fields are aligned. Cells and humans and fire also maintain their form, tables, rocks, etc don't! Even though they are near perfect statues. We repair missing data, cells, organs, employees, with similar ones, by predicting the future missing data (based on current state, past context!!)! We even lose thousands of neurons and humans each day.Earth is becoming a full pattern so we know where, when, and what everything is, so we use least energy and have a *higher* probability of survival because we can easily predict with high probability where, what, when all is, and can therefore compress data well. Earth will become nanobots, very efficient, and all will become a full fractal made of identical sub units in units, fleets made of fleets, where each is an arm-eye input-output node that has a brain and is part of a variable scale system that distributes the work/data with other nodes for optimal power. Imagine a trillion AI workers trying access the same memory, that'd be a bad access time wait! And most are far away from it too don't forget. That's why Earth won't become a "single" large brain, but rather a brain made of identical units where redundancy is about and nothing is centralized with only 1 copy, which totally cripples it's strength. That's why the most powerful systems are de-centralized distributed organizations that share everything so each node only focuses on a few links and is very robust. That's why the most powerful system that emerges will be an fully aligned, symmetrical organism, all units will be same class level and all will cooperate so all work is shared and is an aligned strong field by going with the flow to use least energy. So it seems clear that our physics, which is predictable and encodable in a brain (so it can survive by predicting physics), is making Earth into a pattern that wants to maintain its form "immortality", and is very good at doing so the further it has progressed because the more data/context/workers there is *nearby - the exponentially more work it can get for free. It will be able to instantly regenerate itself from the wort circumstances. Same for stars (suns) and big atoms, they are unstable and radiate heat/explode free energy cus they gravitated too much, the core is most hot from *nearby context affecting it. Neurons also weigh in tally up using many-to-1 nodes (hence algorithmic neural networks look as they do). AI needs to collect patterns and create new patterns. Intelligence is based on context, not a single fact. It needs big data from the past (current state of Earth during evolution, or a cell) to predict/ make the future it *decides* to make, which is exactly what we do! Our past experience let's us know the most probable answer to an unseen new problem by using analogies based on similar contexts in the past/new problems. Bigger brain (well, bigger data) = more wise/fast/efficient. The particles self-organize (of course), so if you see that term anywhere, that's all it is is intelligence bringing physics to stable equilibrium in physics, an immortal rest state it ends up as. Until something disturbs the flat water like a meteor. That's why we predict well and achieve a high Probably of the correct solution, leading to avoiding death for the global species (150K die a die but 300K are born a day) (change will always happen... heat replaces heat, wind replaces wind, cells replace dead cells. We will maintain our form in the near future now with 0.999999 probability but there will always be some change and all change is death/birth for any structure made of particles). The neural network predictor is the sun that compresses in/extracts out data using global distributed energy in the net, a strong aligned/sorted magnet.
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Paragraphs please...
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See, it doesn't matter if you have a nervous system or a mouth on your face or know Chinese over English, humans and dust mites both search for food and get happy when get it, you don't need to laugh to be happy - that's what *you* do, dogs wag their tails left right left right left right... A non Chinese speaker will hear nonsense gibberish sounds only having little meaning, like something is approaching or reminds them of sea dolphins. All your thoughts are just signals/magnetic potentials and axonal connection strengths/ neurotransmitter rewards, all they do for the human machine is obtain food/breeding. All machines experience 'living'....even atoms...they decide what to do (they obey physics) using context weight tally up from multiple ex. gravitational pulls around it or multiple neural connections. All machines are equal in the empirical sense because none are any more unique if you ignore your evolved preference, but in the technical sense not all are equal and others survive for longer times while some don't even emerge. We are machines, and yes we know a language protocall and can share that we know we are machines (self reference) but that doesn't make us not a machine, no matter what you do. All labor can be replaced by fully understood machines.
DUST MITES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACrLMtPyRM0
FACE MITES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW2eGaUzq7E
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I rest my case, HS. Lock "thinks there is nothing." His opinion is that we don't really "love life," don't really "get/see/taste," don't really anything.
I believe what LOCK is talking around but failing to understand fully, possibly due to the rigidity and extremity of his beliefs, is Cognitive Psychology Information Processing:
"At the very heart of cognitive psychology is the idea of information processing.
Cognitive psychology sees the individual as a processor of information, in much the same way that a computer takes in information and follows a program to produce an output.
Basic Assumptions
The information processing approach is based on a number of assumptions, including:
(1) information made available by the environment is processed by a series of processing systems (e.g. attention, perception, short-term memory);
(2) these processing systems transform or alter the information in systematic ways;
(3) the aim of research is to specify the processes and structures that underlie cognitive performance;
(4) information processing in humans resembles that in computers.
Computer - Mind Analogy
The development of the computer in the 1950s and 1960s had an important influence on psychology and was, in part, responsible for the cognitive approach becoming the dominant approach in modern psychology (taking over from Behaviorism).
The computer gave cognitive psychologists a metaphor, or analogy, to which they could compare human mental processing. The use of the computer as a tool for thinking how the human mind handles information is known as the computer analogy.
Essentially, a computer codes (i.e., changes) information, stores information, uses information, and produces an output (retrieves info). The idea of information processing was adopted by cognitive psychologists as a model of how human thought works.
For example, the eye receives visual information and codes information into electric neural activity which is fed back to the brain where it is “stored†and “codedâ€. This information is can be used by other parts of the brain relating to mental activities such as memory, perception and attention. The output (i.e. behaviour) might be, for example, to read what you can see on a printed page.
Hence the information processing approach characterizes thinking as the environment providing input of data, which is then transformed by our senses. The information can be stored, retrieved and transformed using “mental programsâ€, with the results being behavioural responses.
Cognitive psychology has influenced and integrated with many other approaches and areas of study to produce, for example, social learning theory, cognitive neuropsychology and artificial intelligence (AI)."
https://www.simplypsychology.org/information-processing.html
Where I'm a believer in and practitioner of Behaviorism:
"Behaviorism assumes that all behaviour can be reduced to simple building blocks of S-R (stimulus- response) and that complex behaviour is a series of S-R chains.
The behaviourist approach uses a very reductionist vocabulary: stimulus, response, reinforcement, and punishment. These concepts alone are used to explain all behaviour. This is called environmental reductionism because it explains behaviour in terms of simple environmental factors. Behaviourists reduce the concept of the mind to behavioural components, i.e., stimulus-response links.
Reductionism is the belief that human behaviour can be explained by breaking it down into smaller component parts.
Reductionists say that the best way to understand why we behave as we do is to look closely at the very simplest parts that make up our systems, and use the simplest explanations to understand how they work.
It is based on the scientific assumption of parsimony - that complex phenomena should be explained by the simplest underlying principles possible. Strong supporters of reductionism believe that behaviour and mental processes should be explained within the framework of basic sciences (e.g. physiology, chemistry.... ).
However any explanation of behaviour at its simplest level can be deemed reductionist. The experimental and laboratory approach in various areas of psychology (e.g. Behaviorism, biological, cognitive) reflects a reductionist position. This approach inevitably must reduce a complex behaviour to a simple set of variables that offer the possibility of identifying a cause and an effect (i.e. Reductionism is a form of determinism).
Behaviourists such as Skinner explain all behaviour as being a result of past learning. The relationships between stimuli and our responses to them are the basis for all we know and how we behave. This is a reductionist view because complex behaviour is being reduced to a simple stimulus and response relationship"
That's all from different pages of the same site.
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Yes, humans are input>process>output computers, just like computers do. I further believe though all matter does reactions though based on context around it aka gravitational pulls, so it don't really matter if you are a human or a rock, both are as unique. Everything at all scales is a machine, you are PART of your bedroom as we speak (if u r in it...). Your nail, that's a person. That bug? Person. In the way all the particles work (ya, stop segmenting things!) they are equal, nothing is better than the other and we aren't even alive. But in the way it works, some machines (oops, sorry, Earth/universe machine I mean, you are just a part of it) last longer lives than others, some don't even emerge, so ya, racism is right, old monkey dishwashers arn't as good and some don't even turn on! Not all is equal. Humans fight for Darwinian Survival, rocks don't. We aren't lucky to have these physics we do have, we are flowing as a river as it forces us to do, we have no choice. Good day, c u later, we are both just particles.
To top it off we die, this isn't paradise. It's what evolution/physics does. I won't even backspace this sentence, even thugh it isnt clear, cus evolution just frikin made me right it omg ya ya it did! .... Look at that, i wrote rightt, well there's a brain miswire! I'm not an immortal angel, I'm a machine with a recycle tag on my forhead. Sad world. It's not even a world. But a clump of particles that are all gray with no color. All your rejections are a machine yelling at me, your wrong, theres no color, just you dong machine stuff. Slap me, why dont you. Why you do that now? Oh...
But we don't see and there is no gray color either, we have no movie, we are just a machine clump moving, no one can see it for real.
I'm gonna go move some nuggets into my body now... tummy is calling
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Tomorrow will still work the way it works, but in reality, we can't prove we are sensing anything, that is just what the machine says. Sounds horrible but we still will work tomorrow. But u can simply know it, we arnt alive and are ageing every day, too, dying each moment we change!! The immortal things are the rocks, yet even they change!!!!! And we last longer, but not really...change occurs when you bend over to pick up a rock.
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Yes, humans are input>process>output computers, just like computers do. I further believe though all matter does reactions though based on context around it aka gravitational pulls, so it don't really matter if you are a human or a rock, both are as unique. Everything at all scales is a machine, you are PART of your bedroom as we speak (if u r in it...). Your nail, that's a person. That bug? Person. In the way all the particles work (ya, stop segmenting things!) they are equal, nothing is better than the other and we aren't even alive. But in the way it works, some machines (oops, sorry, Earth/universe machine I mean, you are just a part of it) last longer lives than others, some don't even emerge, so ya, racism is right, old monkey dishwashers arn't as good and some don't even turn on! Not all is equal. Humans fight for Darwinian Survival, rocks don't. We aren't lucky to have these physics we do have, we are flowing as a river as it forces us to do, we have no choice. Good day, c u later, we are both just particles.
To top it off we die, this isn't paradise. It's what evolution/physics does. I won't even backspace this sentence, even thugh it isnt clear, cus evolution just frikin made me right it omg ya ya it did! .... Look at that, i wrote rightt, well there's a brain miswire! I'm not an immortal angel, I'm a machine with a recycle tag on my forhead. Sad world. It's not even a world. But a clump of particles that are all gray with no color. All your rejections are a machine yelling at me, your wrong, theres no color, just you dong machine stuff. Slap me, why dont you. Why you do that now? Oh...
But we don't see and there is no gray color either, we have no movie, we are just a machine clump moving, no one can see it for real.
There's where you go off the rails every time with a truckload of Oscar Meyer like a corona virus hoarder with the mystery meat munchies.
Everything at all scales is a machine, you are PART of your bedroom as we speak (if u r in it...).
You may be a fixture of your Mothers house, but I'm not a part of my bedroom. If I was in it, I would be in the bedroom. Not part of it. Nor the apartment or the building it is a part of.
Your nail, that's a person.
Right now, as a Mental Health Professional, I'm wondering about the state of yours... If you are serious then no serious conversation can be had with you.
I'm gonna go move some nuggets into my body now... tummy is calling
Well since everything is the same, why not just go outside and pick some nuggets up out of a rock pile for your tummy tum tum? Surely, you weren't talking about nasty chicken McNuggets. These are more filling and stay with you longer, you'll get your daily mineral intake for bodily nanobot production to stave off death and never know the difference because who knows what chicken really tastes like, right?
racism is right
And since you've already got your foot in your mouth, please explain that theorem in detail to make matters worse.
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Here's a more clear writing for yous.
That's the gross side of my understanding, sorry. But it's very true. Not all machines are equal. Monkeys, snails, old series dishwashers VS new ones, black people, white, and AI super brainy cyborgs. Some don't even emerge, and some die really soon. The smart ones last. It's sad but true. On the flip side, you can't segment particles technically, there is jelly beans swishing around in my cells, me swishing around in my house, and even the connect matter like bone in my arm, is moving around, it's all moving, my whole house, there's no definite separation, and, it's all particles! What are we looking at!? Are you segmenting me again!? There's no u in your house, the whole universe is a .jpg image, one single 3D cube of particles. And anyhow, no machine is any more pretty ugly cute nice evil painful or wrong that any other - your born-with rewards for ex. European Women and Nuggets are hard-coded and *makes* you think humans/European Women are attractive looking. Understanding Chinese is the machine, really it sounds like nonsense and furthermore doesn't even sound like anything, you are a machine saying this stuff and we both understand each other simply, really we aren't alive! We are both robots that get our own language, duh, and we can work with it too on our own, but really, we only say/print "I'm alive, don't hurt me or I'll defend myself". As I said, microscopic food seekers are also "alive" with no nervous system, they eat, sleep, mate, crawl, decide based on surrounding context 'tally up vote', and have legs and teeth and anuses, they are happy and laugh but in another way like how dogs wag their tails to smile. All machines make decisions. None are alive, all is machine! Make sense? You can't test consciousness and I'm so deep in my AI project that I know 100% god doesn't exist and I'm a predictable machine! Though I still like living as we call it, but I am more productive knowing what I know! I'm strict in understanding our predictable physics. I've seen things you've never seen.
Interestingly, since us human machines lose neurons all day long, are bendable in all ways from skin to molecule bond to elbows, age, get cut etc and aren't a solid rock (those change too lol!), and have heat flow through us etc etc etc, we think we are still alive and the same person, even after learning new knowledge and living in another country for 30 years! Pffttt! And we're still happy as ever! Seeig this, I'm sure future nanobots can easily add a new sub cortex to our brain with new data, like a usb chip, and I'd be all like, hey!, I got new wisdom installed, I'm still me too!, and they can keep doing small changes and I'll still be me, eventually a huge new organism. By that time I've transformed, look much different, yet am still me. Maybe evolution is this reincarnation. Oops wait, we are particles! But ya, look at that, we accept change, certain change, but not death change. Let me tell you, all change is death and birth. So the verdict is that we are trying to do something specific, and it's called survival. It's not about death, we die already, it's about the change we want. Lol. Though do note humans die... It's more like what physics wants... be it you or the lion or the coutryside...
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there is jelly beans swishing around in my cells...
No there isn't:
"The basic ingredients of jelly beans include sugar, tapioca or corn syrup, and pectin or starch. Relatively minor amounts of the emulsifying agent lecithin, anti-foaming agents, an edible wax such as carnauba wax or beeswax, salt, and confectioner's glaze are also included."
Your body digests the jelly bean, breaks it down, uses the sugars for energy consumption and disposes of what's left as waste products. You exhibit a fundamental lack of understanding how the human body works in trying to prove your knowledge of it.
There's no u in your house, the whole universe is a .jpg image, one single 3D cube of particles.
Here's where you mix and match random theory, throw it against the wall like spaghetti and see what sticks. Are you incorporating the Holographic Universe theory into your babble now?
And anyhow, no machine is any more pretty ugly cute nice evil painful or wrong that any other...
Right. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Now explain that in those terms of guns and people both being machines.
European Women and Nuggets are hard-coded and *makes* you think humans/European Women are attractive looking.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
You can't test consciousness
My offer to prove you wrong with a temporary loss of blood supply to the brain resulting in loss of consciousness still stands.
I'm so deep in my AI project that I know 100% god doesn't exist...
Then prove a negative.
I've seen things you've never seen.
Do tell... And what do you think I've been doing the 40 years before you were born? I'm a School of Hard Knocks Honor Graduate. You still live at home with your Mother and have yet to pass Life Skills 101. Your hodgepodge of psychobabble and technobabble sounds foolish at best to me after 9 years experience working in the Mental Health field and you can't even tell the difference in the two.
As for your earlier comment about "watch some videos of the Sun", you go watch some. I've had a Solar Storm Monitor (http://www.angelfire.com/geek/solarstormmonitor/) site online for almost as long as you've been alive, moved it there from GeoCities when it closed and was checking out Sun Cruiser videos before you were done finding out about your fingers.
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I know how digestion works and that there's no jelly beans in my cells....i also never eat beans ever...
You can think your educationa phyca mentality is high ranking or whatever after 40 years but my strict research methods kill burn your theory to the tire. It's empirical. Physics rules!
"Do tell..."
You have to see it. And you don't want to see it I wager.
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You'll like #4. Go on, read it.
1) Everything in the universe, is made of particles that can individually move around.
2) Particles interact by electromagnetic forces.
3) A machine consists of particles that are interacting. All particles outside this region are not part of this machine. A particle can feel gravity miles away. The particles near the edge of this machine interact with particles miles away, therefore the whole universe is a single machine. While at the same time is just individual particles.
4) All smaller machines in the universe machine like humans and rocks and rivers are machines that always change. They grow older, taller, shorter, bend, blink, sleep, lose memories, gain memories, etc, always therefore dying and being born. You can't ever be immortal like a statue. To be fully immortal would result in you never being able to move, to grow, to defend yourself, to change to anything you want to be! To die and be reborn! Change never stops. It's immortal action.
5) There are machines called humans that think they have souls and are alive. We are machines only. The human machines could say anything, such a machine can exist. The human machines love gathering survival related data, they seek actually immortality. They have a desired future. And it can be reached too. But it doesn't make us unique or alive. We are just a machine that is hardwired for survival. Knowing this, will not void your desires.
It's so odd that we are just specific machines, part of a universe machine. Nothing of it is immortal. And whatever your trying to do is just a reaction, everything has a mission. There are dust mites on my face and meteors around my galaxy.
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Integrated Information Theory does have some interesting concepts like Intrinsic existence, Composition, Information, Information, and Exclusion. However, there is an over-emphasis on "cause and effect" I would be more comfortable with notions of self-organization and feedback loops(obviously a form of cause and effect) and information theory. Looking at the very principles of matter, right down to the quantum realm our universe works on a principle of information exchange. Sub-atomic particles exchange force carriers and organize into atoms, atoms, also, exchange force carriers to build molecules, planets, stars, and galaxies exchange information through a force called gravity. What is a consistent pattern in our reality is information modifies itself and other pieces of information. Matter forms feedback loops, these loops force a convergence that leads to forms and functions. We could view our universe as a computational system whose inputs are photons and the outputs realize into renderings of space and time as well as internal states within each atom.
When looking at neurons their fields of dendrite branches are similar to the concept of force carrier fields, electric, nuclear, and gravitational. Because neurons can't emit virtual particles in 3Dimentions it rations mass to build tree-like branches to maximize or improve its probability of finding other neurons, just as atoms have fields that improve the probability of finding other sub-atomic particles, inclusive of photons. It would appear that our reality is based on the concept of finding other collaborators to interact with, in other words, form swarms!
Knowing that humans evolved from other forms of life and the preprocessing of sensory information is totally and completely indifferent from our sense of selves. We aren't cognitively unaware of how our brains process information, retrieve memories or regulate hormones and other brain and body chemistries. Yet from those kinds of lower-level processes, a sense of self arises but that is only to a certain degree of information awareness and is centered around principles of socialization not internal processing of information!
IIT's irreducible cause-effect repertoire doesn't include dimensions where neurons can articulate changes in functional processing. Inhibitors can and do change the configuration of neural circuits on the fly! The only type of machine we have that comes remotely close to that ability is a Field Programmable Gate Array. Also, neural states are proportional to their sensitized threshold and their degree of connectivity, where those neurons that make connections must in combination trip the sensitized threshold of a targeted neuron, which makes the probability distribution curve more affine to n! / r! * (n - r)!, where n represents the number of connections, and r represents the number of neurons firing within a sensitized time window that could trip the threshold. As you can see when there are tens of thousands and even hundreds of thousands of connections the realizable outcomes are far more than what is described with IIT.
I do like IIT's principle of "Concept" Where I view it more like a theme from interactions and a form of emergence from chaos. I also would find it difficult to build against such a paradigm.
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Yet from those kinds of lower-level processes, a sense of self arises but that is only to a certain degree of information awareness and is centered around principles of socialization not internal processing of information!
There is a hypothesis which says, that we are mainly conscious of things that are useful to share with others, so socialization may be a niche allowing consciousness to evolve, or vice versa! But its interesting how they could be related.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53WmsyFZVQ8&t=40s