The last invention.

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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #375 on: October 01, 2018, 12:27:30 am »
So frown apon self ignitions, i c. Hmm.

step on lego, ai last thought, well, yes, because both thoughts pass attention, the self ignited neuron no win attention!

Ok but....what if we placed korrelan in Honk Kong in an apartment skyscraper's Japanese bed with Women in kimonos as he awakens???? What stimulus would be recognized that alerts the facets of true AGI (aka intelligence)????? Bingo. Lines.
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #376 on: October 01, 2018, 10:13:19 am »
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So frown apon self ignitions

Random ‘self ignitions’, yes.  Nature doesn’t waste resources; I can’t see any possible use for a pseudorandom mechanism in the brain.

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step on lego, ai last thought, well, yes, because both thoughts pass attention, the self ignited neuron no win attention!

Yes exactly, only it’s the same for any action you choose, there is no ‘self ignition’.  There is always some underlying combination of reasons/ thoughts that lead to the outcome. 

If you think about it, the actual concept of ‘self ignition’ is illogical.  If it were true the available options you could randomly choose from would have to be filtered/ limited in some way depending on the situation, ergo they aren’t random anymore.

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What stimulus would be recognized that alerts the facets of true AGI

Ever noticed how a human will freeze for a few seconds in an unknown situation.  Let’s say there is a loud bang that catches them of guard, there head slightly ducks between their shoulders and they freeze.  Their brain has no idea what to do next, its an unknown situation, they don’t instantly choose an action at random; they need that second or so to process the moment and their sensory streams, the action they take next will depend on the information from their senses and relating the moment to a previous similar experience… or training.  A soldier or officer would probably hit the ground straight away, that’s the effect of training, a reflex action. 

This is the reason deer or rabbits will sit still and just stare at a oncoming cars headlights, it’s a novel experience, their brain has no idea what to do because it’s never encountered a similar situation.

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Bingo. Lines.

The whole essence of the idea of a deterministic reality is that given enough computing power, and an accurate model of sufficient complexity (sometimes down to the molecular level) any system can be duplicated, simulated.  Even the motions of bingo balls follow certain laws; we obviously don’t have the necessary models or computational resources to model bingo balls at the molecular level… yet.

If your theory requires a pseudorandom mechanism then by all means employ it.  Depending on the level of abstraction required it might be adequate for your purposes.  Nothing is cast in stone, it might help you temporarily solve a problem that allows you to move on, and you can always come back and re-think it later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqZZ95L2n7o

You can do this with loads of different animals.  Their brains just don’t have a learned response to the novel combination of posture and visual input, there is no ‘thing to do next’ from this situation… so they freeze… in a loop… until a recognised stimulus brings them out of it.

It’s the brain giving an.. Error 404 response not found.

 :)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2018, 10:42:20 am by korrelan »
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #377 on: October 01, 2018, 01:13:09 pm »
You can also just stand the chicken up and place its beak on the chalk line and it will just stand there looking at that line for a minute or so until something/someone breaks it's concentration.
We used to do that trick decades ago on my uncle's farm. No, it did not hurt the chicken in any way (unless for perhaps a bit of embarrassment). ;)
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #378 on: October 01, 2018, 01:39:41 pm »
I thought babies make random sounds and movements because there is no (or no totally yet formed/apparent) actions to do on any cue learned yet. Shouldn't the rabbit seeing approaching head lights make random movements suddenly then?

No not random self ignitions of neurons...just the ones that are super strengthened nodes and/or super rewarded nodes, say you have 8 trying to pop up every 6 hours, its just their way to get back in your head, its like a todolist or working memory. And the attention gates some out too who will not win atm. But maybe tinnitus and eye swirls when eyes closed are the stimulus that selects them. Even the feel of your own body ex. tongue in mouth could select your todolist nodes/link to them. I think maintaining millions of fading nodes's strength and self ignition desire to be attended to is tough, its better to place them in working memory and attend to top best, updating them hourly or minutely.
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #379 on: October 01, 2018, 10:11:26 pm »
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  If you were to get out of bed and stand on a Lego… the thought of working on your AI would be the last thing to pop into your head.

Ha! Yup, I used to have that happen all the time. Now I wake up because the bedside lamp is shining in my eyes interrogation style. And my little brother is asking me how to do something in minecraft, having already taken over my computer.
That inspires a vague idea. Minecraft only renders/creates as much of the world as it needs to. So there are kind of two layers, the imaginary space ready to support a world and the actual world. If a computer couldn't handle rendering a whole brain/ai, maybe we could just feed it imaginary space in the direction it's going.


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So a single finger joint muscle does not just have one network governing it, it might have ten, all slightly different taking information from different sources, each driving sets of fibres within the same muscle.  Ever get the shakes after a night on the booze?  Basically some of the many networks that control your hands are out of sync… still drunk… hence the course movements/ shakes.
A finger thing has always puzzled me. In the winter, if your fingers get cold it's basically impossible to to tie your shoe, pull a zipper, or turn a key in a lock. I would understand this if we had any muscles in our fingers. But no, except for one muscle at the base of the thumb, finger control muscles are in the forearms!  Never understood that.

So on the counter intuitive animal reactions:
There are lots of rabbits on the path to school, when I ride my bike down the trail they will watch me approach from the side of the path, then sprint across right in front of me. If I held a net just ahead of the front wheel I would have free meals for half the year.
Whatever makes them do that has some kind of purpose, right? Like a negative side effect or unavoidable byproduct of a useful system.


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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #380 on: October 02, 2018, 11:14:25 am »
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You can also just stand the chicken up

Cool… I’ve never seen a video showing this but it just goes to prove how limited/ simple the sensory systems of a chicken are lol… I’m off to find some chickens.

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I thought babies make random sounds and movements

This is a misinterpretation, of an early theory formed from the observation of babies, it lead to schemas like constrained motor babbling, etc.  Babies do not make random movements; they do use constrained/ guided trial and error though, which is totally different.

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Shouldn't the rabbit seeing approaching head lights make random movements suddenly then?

No, because animals don’t make random movements… hence all the squished rabbits.

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In the winter, if your fingers get cold it's basically impossible to to tie your shoe

There are physiological reasons that affect you, you have evolved with warm blood, your joints and tactile sensors/ neurons in your finger tips simply don’t function efficiently without it. Your body retracts blood from your extremities to guard your core temperature and vital organs.  But the main reason is that you spend most of your time being warm, your sensory maps are not used to dealing with the signals from cold fingertips, the suppleness of your skin changes, this changes the responses of your sensors… spend more time being cold and you soon adapt.

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Like a negative side effect or unavoidable byproduct of a useful system.

Probably true, rabbits aren’t known for their smarts lol.

 :)
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #381 on: October 02, 2018, 11:47:02 am »
But there is 3 types of movements for babies/adults...random, reinforced by Reward, and imitation. (besides reflexes)

It could build a hierarchy of motor programs by random movements.

But what thou it act and carry out if thou baby has no reward for such behavior? Why does it do X actions then? Where did they come from? EITHER it generated its own n finds what gives it rewards or it is transferred imitation by watching people.

If a plastic bolted to the floor metal arm extended and got food reward, it'd do the action generated, but always with a tweak in it to always try and get further reward than it gives.
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #382 on: October 02, 2018, 12:42:58 pm »
I was talking to my mom about chickens, and she said her dad was so tough that he used to do 5 chickens at a time.
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Korrelan

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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #383 on: October 02, 2018, 02:58:48 pm »
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But there is 3 types of movements for babies/adults...random, reinforced by Reward, and imitation.

Hmmm… I’m not sure where you are getting your information, do you mean in your interpretation of the human schema, or according to your understanding/ theory.

Random is one of those concepts that seem to exist, depending on the level of abstraction you are considering/ viewing it.  If the underlying sequence/ pattern is not understood/ known by the observer then the sequence appears random.  Even a lottery draw is not actually/ truly random… academia can’t even decide if, or prove that true randomness actually exists.

Even someone having a seizure doesn’t make random movements; there is a precise control system behind the movements that’s malfunctioning.  It could be local or inter lobe feedback/ cascades, or even an imbalance with the cerebral fluid causing the sporadic firing of neurons… but it’s not random… there is a reason, a mechanism, a sequence; it just seems random at the viewed level of abstraction.

Anyway…think about it, what would a random movement actually achieve? Let’s say you have an arm with a rotational shoulder and an elbow joint, now using random movements the arm is going to wave around, slopping in many different random positions and directions within the 3D volume of possible positions.  If we limit the arc of movement for each joint in 3D space to 200 deg, so… 200x200x200=8,000,000 one degree arc positions for shoulder, then the elbow with rotation is roughly the same so… 8 million X 8 million = 6.4e+13 possible locations for the end of the arm… nope not gonna work.

Let’s say by some stroke of luck the end of the arm hits the target, now we move the target slightly to the left.  Does the arm then randomly slop around until it finds the target again? Or is it somehow then less-random?  There is nothing random about how a child does this; it is a goal driven/ orientated feed back system.  If the motion is guided/ constrained/ limited in some way then it’s not random.

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Why does it do X actions then? Where did they come from?

A healthy human baby will not even attempt to reach for an object before the age of 1 month, they can’t see clearly enough or even distinguish colours before this age, their brains have to learn to see clearly… think about that.

Reaching for objects is a gradually learned/ guided/ considered process.  They have rudimentary spatial awareness, self awareness, body position awareness or where their limbs are within the 3D volume surrounding their bodies.  All these systems develop together, starting in utero, guiding each other… watch a really young baby stare at its hands… it’s born with these innate abilities, they are provided/ dictated by the DNA blueprint for a human. 

I personally think that the mouth is the initial point of origin; all movements are guided/ judged in relation to the mouth… for obvious reasons. 

When it comes to the time a baby can reach for a reward it knows exactly what it is doing… no ‘randomness’ required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvV1bKKXPsE

Watch this child... the shakiness is a calibration problem, it knows what it's doing, but it's still learning to coordinate.

 :)
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #384 on: October 02, 2018, 10:24:43 pm »
Hmm 19-22 the baby seems to be looking away whilst the hand seems to be swirling around following the green toy, as if it is using feel for where to go.

All you said was no random, think about vision learned.....

Of course randomization is needed, actions have to be generated or passed down. How else a walk appears, or a tool carving motion appears, gradually. ?

I agree I can pick up a toothpick placed anywhere in front of me, my vision links to the actions or something like that. Same for the hand swirling around using fell said above. Slide toothpick over, my hierarchy of actions can adjust.
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #385 on: October 03, 2018, 12:54:10 am »
Just because I think there is no randomisation in the brain doesn't mean there isn't. It's just my personal opinion, I could be wrong. 

I expect you to carefully consider anybody's opinions/ ideas and draw your own conclusions.

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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #386 on: October 08, 2018, 08:35:31 am »
Hello korrelan, I had a thought for your beowulf's connectome last night.

It came to me when I was looking at the box of one of my daughter's game. On the box was written "1000 questions in  images". My translation is maybe poor, so I'll explain. It's a quiz game where questions are images, and answers are also images you choose from.

So you can start very simple, with just associations. Say, an image of a car is the question. As possible answers, you have a road sign, a flower, a table, a wheel, a chair, and... a flat cat. What images would you select?

Then go a little higher, with sequences. An image of a man drinking something. What images come before, what images come after? ...etc. and so on. You can also associate with images of text or other things I haven't thought of yet.

Varying these exercices, I believe you can teach a lot of  common sense to your beowulf's connectome. And the good part is of course that you can easily create an automatic question generator, based on a search engine's pics/vids results.

Perhaps it's something you did already?
Hope it gives ideas! ;)

Ed:
Girlfriend kicking man's ass => Man drinking something => AGI popping-up
Obvious sequence.
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #387 on: October 08, 2018, 10:04:41 am »
Cool idea... I'll give it some thought.

 :)
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Re: The last invention.
« Reply #388 on: October 08, 2018, 12:02:52 pm »
Hey korr I sent you a PM.
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