Is free will reproducible?

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Zero

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Is free will reproducible?
« on: December 18, 2017, 09:12:17 am »
My first idea was to name this thread "What is free will?"... but wondering whether free will is reproducible seems to be more pragmatic, and still includes the question of what it is.

I remember WriterOfMind saying that free will could be somehow related to "localized temporary override of the standard laws of physics", a brave suggestion. Well, do you think that such "overriding" exists? If so, is it reproducible? Why or why not?

Do you think human free will is an illusion? Do you think it's real? If it's an illusion, should an AGI have the same illusion? If it's real, then what is it? How do we reproduce it?

What's your take on these topics?
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keghn

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2017, 02:36:09 pm »
 You have free will as long as your internal, hard coded, rearwards are satiated.
 The conscious mind is to do a better job, then the subconscious mind, at for filling these rewards. If not
the subconscious will take over. The will also construct a new queen be for the hive. A second conscious. Two
consciousness in the same mind is not god thing if you have no family for safety and there fast predators around. 
 But this is a fail safe to save the whole collective swarm.


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ivan.moony

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2017, 12:38:48 am »
That's a real question there.

If we think that the Universe is strict set of rules, starting from quarks, ending with lifeforms, then there is no free will (it is just illusion). If we think that the Universe starts with life forms, and ends with quarks, then that would make us gods, and all there is, would be free will. The third possibility is that quarks do their job, life forms do their, and we meet in between. That would explain the real free will, while retaining strict rules of physics. Who knows, maybe free will is indistinguishable from elementary particle rules, meaning that what we think has a direct impact to elementary particles behavior.

How to implement a free will into AI?

One way is to use chaos that influences making decisions. Of course, we would want to control that chaos in some extent, just to be sure nothing bad happens. Some of us might think that there is no such thing as chaos. Well, to be honest, it is possible that chaotic input / output is not completely random, but controlled by a higher force. In that case we would have an opportunity to contact the higher force by AI semi-chaotic input / output, if, of course, the possible higher force would like to reveal its existence to us. On the other hand, it could always play random chaos if it wants to stay hidden, which would be the same experience as if it doesn't exist.

For now, we can only have our own presumptions, but a real scientist would never take for granted an acceptance or denial of existence of something without a proof. And maybe this question is something we (or AI) would never be able to prove either way. I heard somewhere that there was some effort to prove the existence of god by constructing a math logic proof of it. The result is probably nothing serious or worth of attention, as it is not widely known.

The other way to implement a free will into AI is to make a new living form that has artificial extensions for peeking and poking the Universe, but then it wouldn't be AI , it would be NI (natural intelligence - with artificial body). We would need a real chemistry, some magic and a decent explanation of life phenomena to do it that way. But I don't know how ethical it would be. We would have to know a lot of other things too before we play gods of wisdom.
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korrelan

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2017, 01:41:32 pm »
‘Free will’ is always a good topic for a bit of lateral thinking/ brainstorming lol.

‘Free will’ is just a collective term for the choices that that we execute every second of every day, from the way you pickup a cup; to the vocational path you intend to pursue.

We use experience, knowledge, personal preference, peer pressure, etc to weigh up the facets/ variables of the choices, predict the outcome and evaluate possible repercussions, etc. The term implies that a person has the free choice between two or more options/ actions/ etc.

Firstly I think you have to consider where these choices are coming from.  Whether they are provided by an external source or an internal indecision they still have to be generated/ understood and filtered by the brain.

I think it’s logical to assume that we can only use the logic/ knowledge/ experiences that we have personally encounted to filter/ reason about the choices. 

This is where the sub-conscious throws a spanner in the works.  We have no control over our subconscious, it’s driven by the hierarchical knowledge/ experience we have built up over our lifetime.  Personal beliefs, our location, health, the temperature, etc all play a part in the way our subconscious processes the choices.  The choices are filtered and understood by our internal ‘logic’ schema, and our consciousness is derived from that subconscious.

Even if you decide to throw caution to the wind and make a decision other than relevant ones, it’s your deep understanding of the problem space and previous experience of doing so that allows you to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be a choice.

So yes… I think we do exercise a kind of free will; we make free choices every second but… although we make a conscious choice between the possible options, the choices them selves are jaded/ constrained by our own intellects.

I think this is where most of the arguments about ‘free will’ arise from, the whole process is contained within our own brains so the choice is our ‘will’… it’s the ‘free’ part that causes ambiguity… all we can do is learn, accumulate experiences and knowledge so that as we filter the choices, our subconscious is wise enough to give us the correct information.



If any of that makes sense lol.

 :)

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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2017, 09:57:54 am »
I do like the idea of a Universe that starts with life forms, and ends with quarks, even though I don't think it makes us gods... or if we're gods, well we're gods in a democracy: beliefs of everyone are averaged to produce standard laws of physics.

Quote
One way is to use chaos that influences making decisions. Of course, we would want to control that chaos in some extent, just to be sure nothing bad happens.
I don't agree here. On the contrary, I believe it's our responsability to make an AGI that will be both:
  • Uncontrollable, like a black box we can't monitor because of its complexity
  • Able to make moral and ethical judgement
Why? Look at the example given by our new friend Kurovsky, about Trump and scaring people to make them buy shit we don't need. If humans can control AGIs, really bad things are going to happen!

Quote
‘Free will’ is just a collective term for the choices that that we execute every second of every day, from the way you pickup a cup; to the vocational path you intend to pursue.
I tend to think alike, which is why I accept animism as a convenient way to explain a lot of things. I often think things like "my car decided not to start this morning". Ok, my car is an object, so we usually wouldn't say it "made a choice" about not starting. But personally, I don't mind using such concepts. Hence IMO, AGI will have free will if it constantly appears to have free will. It's not an illusion, it's just a term.
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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2017, 10:48:09 am »
maybe a machine will be made that has what may as well be free will, and perhaps even self diagnosing, but it wont be conscious - as far as i use the term in my mind.    it brings up the point of solipsism,  its impossible to tell anyone is "alive" except yourself as a certainty, unless u trust and see similarity and just believe it.

The same goes for your robot, how the hell can u tell if its alive or not?  seems to be,  never know for sure.
Like Zero said, its a trust thing.

but...

I guess you just trust that its......... NOT.     and your friends.  ARE.

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ivan.moony

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2017, 11:39:32 am »
How is free will implemented into humans?

We seem to be equipped by an unconscious  automatic solution finder. We imagine, i.e. drinking a coffee from a cup. A part of the brain delivers us a solution: move a hand, pick up the cup, move the hand again, and finally, drink the coffee. This sequence is delivered, and we don't know how, it just appeared to us. Now we can choose to do it or not to do it. If we don't do it, we wait more, and another solution appears: move the head to the cup, then lick the coffee. Now we have two alternatives from we can choose what to do. More waiting would bring us another alternative to our collection of solutions (we can ask someone to bring the cup to our mouth).

Solutions are just falling from the sky, we just choose to do it that way or wait for another solution. Somehow, these solutions avoid what we don't want, and follow what we do want.

If what we have is a kind of unconscious equipment for solving problems, what would be an interface, an input/output between our will and this equipment?
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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2017, 12:37:14 pm »
Quote
Solutions are just falling from the sky, we just choose to do it that way or wait for another solution. Somehow, these solutions avoid what we don't want, and follow what we do want.
So, free will would be due to the fact that there's a part of our brain we can't access consciously. If it's what you're saying, I agree.

Quote
but it wont be conscious - as far as i use the term in my mind
You know, consiousness itself isn't the hard part of AGI. I'll implement a microscopic conscious program, to show the principle, and post it in another thread. Everyone understands javascript right? We'll go JS.
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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2017, 12:03:49 pm »
Damn, I failed  ;D  ::)

Here is what I got...


This is a microscopic conscious program.

The aim is to show some principles, and play around.

First, a conscious entity needs sensors and actuators. We'll keep it simple: only 8 numbers as external sensors (input), and 4 numbers as actuators (output). That's completely arbitrary.

Code: [Select]

var entity = {};

entity.externalSensors = [0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0];

entity.externalActuators = [0, 0, 0, 0];


What they represent doesn't really matter. Sensors are modified by the outer world. Actuators modifiy the outer world.

Now we'll create simple setter functions for actuators.

Code: [Select]

entity.setActuator = function(actuatorId, newValue) {

entity.externalActuators[actuatorId] = newValue;
}


We want our program to be able to feel what's going on inside of itself. Let's make 4 internal sensors!

Code: [Select]

entity.internalSensors = [0, 0, 0, 0];


We only need 3 sensors, for now: one for the eventId, the two others for the "parameters" of the event. But I like 1/2/4/8-like numbers. Our only event so far is setActuator, so let's modify it.

Code: [Select]

entity.setActuator = function(actuatorId, newValue) {

entity.externalActuators[actuatorId] = newValue;

entity.internalSensors = [0, actuatorId, newValue, 0];
}


Now, whenever we move our muscles, we can feel it, thanks to our internal sensors. The zero in the first internal sensor represents the "setActuator event". It's our eventId: ID of setActuator = 0. The last internal sensor is left to zero because there's nothing more to say about this event.

Good. Now let's make an instant memory. The program will run step by step, and the instant memory will contain sensors and actuators data of the 4 most recent steps.

Code: [Select]

entity.instantMemory = [
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],
[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
];

entity.refreshInstantMemory = function() {

entity.instantMemory.push(
entity.externalSensors
.concat(entity.internalSensors)
.concat(entity.externalActuators)
);

entity.instantMemory.shift();
}


The instant memory is a 4x(8+4+4)= 64 cells grid.

Wow, that's huge! No computer on earth can possibly handle this... Too bad. Well our program will have to focus on a small part of it.

To make our focus system, we need two things: a targeting device, and a compression device.

The targeting device's purpose is to choose what we focus on.

The compression device's purpose is to reduce the amount of data. It doesn't need to be a lossless function. For example, if I say "I met a girl today", I'm compressing a lot of things, but it still has a meaning. In a real world project, this is where you would stuff that wonderful pattern recognition algorithm. But here we'll use a simple function: find the 2 highest equal numbers, and return their sum.

The entity's "target" is an array of 4 numbers between 0 and 63, which are the addresses in the instant memory. That's our targeting device. We'll default to the first 4 sensors.

Code: [Select]

entity.target = [0, 1, 2, 3];

entity.setTarget = function(targetSlot, newAddress) {

entity.target[targetSlot] = newAddress;

entity.internalSensors = [1, targetSlot, newAddress, 0];
}


Like before, when we modify the focus, we let the program "feel" what it's doing, by updating the internal sensors, with an eventId of 1. So now we have two eventIds: 0 is setActuator, and 1 is setTarget.

Ok, here is a "fetcher", it just fetches and return the targeted values.

Code: [Select]

entity.xy = function(n) { return { x: n%16, y: Math.floor(n/16) }; }


entity.fetch = function() {

var values = [];

for (var t=0; t<4; t++) {

var addr = entity.xy(entity.target[t]);
values.push(entity.instantMemory[addr.y][addr.x]);
}

return values
}


And here is our compression device. It takes what's in the focus, and gives an interpretation of it. The returned number is the sum of the 2 highest equal numbers in the focus. The returned number describes the situation, even though a lot of data is lost in the process.

Code: [Select]

entity.interpret = function(values) {

var candidate = 0;

for (var i1=0; i1<3; i1++) {

for (var i2=i1+1; i2<4; i2++) {

if ((values[i1]==values[i2]) && (values[i1]>candidate))

candidate = values[i1];
}
}

return candidate*2;
}


Now we'll make a behavioral memory, in order to store our program's behavior. We keep it really simple stupid, it's just a reactive system, unable to learn. We associate a number returned by the compression device to an action.

Code: [Select]

entity.behavior = {

2: [0, 2, 3, 0],
6: [0, 1, 0, 0],
8: [1, 0, 2, 0]
}

entity.do = function(action) {

if (action[0]==0) setActuator(action[1], action[2]);
if (action[0]==1) setTarget(action[1], action[2]);
}


And the main loop would be something like:

Code: [Select]

entity.run = function() {

while (1) {

entity.refreshInstantMemory();

entity.do(
entity.behavior[
entity.interpret(
entity.fetch())]);
}
}


That's it!
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korrelan

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2017, 12:35:48 am »
Nice… but… doesn’t it need an environment/ reality? 

The internal memory should record the results from the sensors along with the actions that where being taken prior. The servo/ motor sensory feedback loops require an external medium for the feed back to travel through/ be affected by... no? 

A human foetus can only pre-learn joint positions, skin tension, etc against the motor outputs, ok sometimes a hand, foot, extremity might press against the womb wall but the foetus has no point of reference to map the sensory information.

Isn’t your bot just flapping about in… space?

 :)
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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2017, 08:31:18 am »
You're right, it's absolutely useless as is, because
1) the compression device is completely meaningless
2) the system isn't wired to anything

Instead of an isolated run() loop, if we want to make a library out of it, we would rather provide a step() function like this:

Code: [Select]

entity.step = function(input) {

entity.externalSensors = input;

entity.refreshInstantMemory();

entity.do(
entity.behavior[
entity.interpret(
entity.fetch())]);

return entity.externalActuators;
}


The user of the library would then include the step() function in the main loop of an environment for the program.

About the feedback loops, what you saw here is not the external feedback loop, which indeed needs a medium to travel through. I consider this to be outside of the bot (it belongs to the environment). An example of external feedback loop is when you move your arm, you can feel your flesh (your muscle) moving. But your arm isn't part of your brain, hence the name "external" feedback.

No, what you saw here is the internal feedback loop. It's just the brain knowing (feeling) what it's doing.



Maybe with a more elaborated compression device, we could make some kind of self-observing Turing tape... a perfect (dumb) brain for Flappy Bird video game!  :P
« Last Edit: December 23, 2017, 11:06:49 am by Zero »
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8pla.net

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2017, 11:27:10 am »
With polite intentions, and in simple terms, the answer is, "No."

I do think it may be simulatable though.
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Zero

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2017, 01:52:12 pm »
Interesting. Do you consider simulation is different from emulation or reproduction? Why?
Or perhaps did you mean "it's possible to fake it, but impossible to make true free will"?
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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2017, 08:35:32 pm »
Its funny how you wrote the machine to analyze itself,  but we have a hard time working that out, alot of people youd think dont analyze themselves at all.  but i guess its an option we have,  its not "machine internal self monitoring diagnostics".

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8pla.net

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Re: Is free will reproducible?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2017, 09:10:54 pm »
Interesting. Do you consider simulation is different from emulation or reproduction? Why?
Or perhaps did you mean "it's possible to fake it, but impossible to make true free will"?

A simulation is a model, while an emulation or reproduction is a copy.
I said, "No." because free will expresses the future, which is impossible to reproduce.
Lastly, my feedback here is to support your research, friend.
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