Does AGI have to be a network

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Zero

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Does AGI have to be a network
« on: September 22, 2018, 09:45:16 am »
Generally speaking, do you think that an AGI's mind has to be a network of some sort, or are there other program structures that would fit?
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korrelan

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2018, 12:14:52 pm »
Quote
Generally speaking, do you think that an AGI's mind has to be a network of some sort,

Good question… but a broad question.

Network - a group or system of interconnected people or things

Most AGI schemas are built around the passing/ sharing of information between disparate module types that share a common data type/ structure.  Obviously both the interconnectivity of the modules running on a single machine, as well as the Ethernet connecting the physically separate machines can be construed as a network

Even the layers of a typical CNN are usually treated/ written as separate structures, and depending on their complexity and the recourses required often run on separate machines, connected by an Ethernet or some other high bandwidth transmission network/ protocol.

So it’s both the high interconnectivity required by the current AGI theories and the lack of computing recourses in a single machine that necessitate a network schema.

Quote
or are there other program structures that would fit?

Using the broad definition of network, any group of objects/ modules that pass/ share information is a network, separate modules/ functions that pass information through a predefined matrix is a network,  even the computing structures used in liquid, reservoir nets can be called networks.

Even the human brain has networks... the definition is just too broad to escape lol.

So be it a consequence of either the broad definition of the word or the concept of interconnectivity the answer to your question in my opinion is… yup.

 :)
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Zero

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2018, 04:13:42 pm »
Good answer... let's narrow the question a bit. What I had in mind was networks, as in *software* networks: sets of nodes which are structurally identical, and computing the same kind of functions, with the data being not in the individual nodes, but rather in the topology according to which they're connected.

Is my english english?  ;D
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ivan.moony

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2018, 05:00:27 pm »
Think of a context free grammar as a rules by a network is capable to compose. Think of a specific syntax tree as an instance of such a network. Parts of the syntax tree are data with more or less complicated structure.

It doesn't have to be a context free grammar. It may be JSON or any other structure capable of what we need to express.
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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2018, 05:23:56 pm »
Ivans one sounds more interesting than the ones I do,  Any way to link I->O is what I use,  so it includes spreadsheets, neural networks, or just simple equations.  and im forming a model,  to be used any way I see fit.

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korrelan

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2018, 08:33:31 pm »
Oh! I see… I’d had four cups of coffee in a row… tends to make me waffle/ rant/ literal lol.

We humans are the problem; we have such a narrow/ limited methodology/ terminology for describing complex problem spaces. 

The essence of an AGI is the re use/ re combination of known base knowledge/ variables into ever more complex representations.  As this is the essence of an intelligent system, it is also our downfall. 

Because the network topology as served us so well with other problems, we tend to want to re use/ think in terms of networks. It’s the main ‘goto’ technique we utilize… 99% of all AGI theories are built around the network principle.

What we actually need is a new type of math or language to adequately describe intelligence… we need to break tradition and known methods… think outside the box.

Hence my AGI program runs on simulated wetware computer architecture, the logic and syntax of the program is totally alien/ incompatible with modern processors.  It’s not just about the connections, but where the nodes/ neurons are located within the connectomes 3D structure that affects processing.

I’m waffeling again… time for a brain dump lol

An intelligent/ processing system has to have some kind of base unit of knowledge that all other knowledge is comprised from.

The base unit has to be in a format that can be re-combined to represent other types of knowledge… at a meaningful processing level. 

Ideally this knowledge unit should be the same format as the sensory input unit, the learned knowledge should exist in the system in the same sequence/ state it was received/ input.  Intelligence/ rules should be both derived and applied to/ from data in this single format.

Obviously for a digital computer it’s 0 &1, the lowest base unit/ of information that can be re-combined to represent more complex concepts, sound, images, logic, etc.

This ‘base unit of knowledge’ concept is the current limit of our human understanding of the AGI problem space.  We simply don’t know of any other way to represent information or process it… big things are made of smaller things… big knowledge comes from smaller knowledge… a + b = c.

I’ve forgotten what the question was… Oh! Yeah… lol.

For a schema to be able to re-combine low level representations of knowledge there has to be some structure/ method/ path ways/ logic/ order that represents the available options… a network, matrix or tree (which is also a network).

To achieve a required threshold of data complexity… the simpler the network, the more complex the data needs to be… and vice versa…

The only exceptions to these rules that I can think of ATM are natural laws of reality/ nature and physical mediums… like water.

End brain dump…

 :)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 11:32:52 pm by korrelan »
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Zero

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2018, 11:22:23 pm »
Quote
An intelligent/ processing system has to have some kind of base unit of knowledge that all other knowledge is comprised from.

A cons cell??
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ivan.moony

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2018, 11:39:58 pm »
To describe the whole propositional logic, we just need two operators like `not` + `or`. All other operators may be derived from the first two like `not (A or B) = (not A) and (not B)` or `(not A) or B = A -> B`. The rest of the job does underlying inference mechanism in a form of resolution rule. Such a power in only two logic operators. And the resolution rule guarantees that whatever can, will be concluded.

With a simple addition of sequencing we get predicates, and with bounded inference and scoping we get even quantifying over variables and predicates, which lifts propositional logic to higher order logic. Some new system, I'll probably write about it soon. A work name is: "bounded propositional logic with sequencing".
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korrelan

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2018, 12:37:16 am »
@Zero

I would think that’s the kind of concept yes… but you would need a much lower level of abstraction for a true AGI.  The base unit of data has to be able to accurately describe any kind of experience/ information that the AGI could experience, that obviously includes spatial and temporal events.  Words don’t actually describe data… in the absence of human interpretation.

If an AGI is going to exist in our reality and be compatible with the human condition, it will require senses on par with our own.  We are as humans, the sum of our experiences, and we experience reality through our senses.  We understand, remember, recall and dream in the format and resolution of our senses.

If your goal is to create an AGI you need a data format/ structure that can adequately describe/ represent anything/ everything the AGI can experience.  Everything from propositional logic too the memories of a loved one, the smell of freshly cut grass too how to kick a ball or grasp a cup… one single data format.

@Ivan

Cool… That’s a good example of how we use hierarchical structures to solve/ portray complex concepts.  Reminds me of/ similar to the NOR gate being functionally complete; they can be combined to create any other logical function.

I look forward to "bounded propositional logic with sequencing".

 :)
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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2018, 02:27:19 am »
Yep you need a net.  It's also efficient too.
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 02:50:31 am »
Given the current state of AGI research, I think it's a bit early to be saying that AGI has to be any particular architecture.  At the moment, the only AGI accessible to our analysis and study is the biological brain -- one data point* in the entire possible solution space!  And we don't even fully understand how it works.

*Or maybe a small cluster of data points, if the brains of humans, parrots, cephalopods, etc. can be said to have meaningful architecture differences.

If you want my completely speculative opinion, though, I favor approaches that feature a collection of specialized modules.  These would be networks in the broad sense, because the modules communicate with each other ... but the modules aren't identical.  They use algorithms and data structures (and, in the ideal case, maybe even hardware) optimized to their particular task within the intellect.

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 10:10:59 am »
If you want my completely speculative opinion, though, I favor approaches that feature a collection of specialized modules.  These would be networks in the broad sense, because the modules communicate with each other ... but the modules aren't identical.  They use algorithms and data structures (and, in the ideal case, maybe even hardware) optimized to their particular task within the intellect.

yes.    i have a version of that -> one neural network module per rule,  the brain being a fixed amount of rules...  for building its internal structure as well as finding its motor.

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Zero

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2018, 10:34:58 pm »
Quote
If your goal is to create an AGI you need a data format/ structure that can adequately describe/ represent anything/ everything the AGI can experience.  Everything from propositional logic too the memories of a loved one, the smell of freshly cut grass too how to kick a ball or grasp a cup… one single data format.

I tend to agree on the idea of a common data structure for the entire system.

Several existing data formats are able to describe anything. Strings are one of them. They can contain images. S-expressions are another example. Why do you suggest that they can't adequately represent everything the AGI can experience?

We are biological beings, but AGI will be digital beings. Do you think the smell of cut grass is something they can experience the way we do?

Quote
If you want my completely speculative opinion, though, I favor approaches that feature a collection of specialized modules.  These would be networks in the broad sense, because the modules communicate with each other ... but the modules aren't identical.  They use algorithms and data structures (and, in the ideal case, maybe even hardware) optimized to their particular task within the intellect.

I favor these approaches too.

What's your opinion about initiatives like ROS? Do you think open platforms, where community-contributed modules can be plugged, are a possible path to AGI?

You mention specialized, "hardcoded" algorithms. Being frozen, don't they limit the potential evolution of the system?
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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2018, 02:41:45 am »
 Maybe a system that uses length of conductors instead of conductor architecture. You could have a brain made from a lot of unconnected conductors lined up together like bristles on a brush. Each one would self adjust it's length based on feedback from the input signal (eye) or feedback from the thing it outputs to (muscle). It might act more like a jellyfish than an AGI though.

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Zero

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Re: Does AGI have to be a network
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2018, 07:41:29 am »
You could emulate this... :)
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