A really fun and simple way to persuade brains

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2018, 09:27:32 pm »
Instead of Disputing that and waiting for Confirmation, I'll change the Statement and try again. You are correct about that.

Statement 3: Humans process knowledge in their brains. Knowledge is facts and information, which can explain things in the real world. Knowledge can describe the real world, the real world procedures and tools. You can know you told your mom birds with tiny wings broke through the door's bottom seal she glued on yesterday. Knowledge can even describe itself.
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2018, 10:30:02 pm »
That seems correct to me.

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2018, 06:14:28 am »
Statement 4: Tools, procedures (things 'moving'), and knowledge, the ones of tomorrow, that can be described by knowledge - some of the ones of tomorrow can be discovered by coming to the idea in your brain first instead of in the real world. Many of the discoveries from the mind must then be actually built/performed in the real world and become tangible. Some knowledge discovered in the mind needs further work or organizing, some doesn't and can sit there in the mind done and complete. At least some of the ones of tomorrow discovered in the real world don't need much perfection ex. when you smash your rock in anger and make the perfect arrow tip or killing action (already made the tool and have it, or already did the actions, or already learned the knowledge "throw arm holding rock hard"). Other discoveries from the real world, require a varying amount of assembling the discovery into a full fledged final perfected product or performance.
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2018, 08:30:10 pm »
OK... This is getting complicated. But the way I see it, three worlds are interacting   to create knowledge procedures and discoveries. First the real world, Second the simulation of that world in our brains (what we perceive as reality), third a holladeck part of the brain which tests out different scenarios inspired by the second world. Depending on how much we know about a problem, we activate world three more or less.
So nothing is discovered in the actual real world. Easy discoveries are found in the first simulation, difficult problems are examined creatively in the hallucinating part of the brain (third reality).
Most problems will be processed by both systems to varying degrees. It's like the cooperation of CPU and GPU but different.
So I guess I've discovered that I agree except for "the real world" part, because that's simulated.

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2018, 12:40:17 am »
https://nypost.com/2018/05/24/how-to-kick-your-deadbeat-adult-kid-out-of-the-house/

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2018, 03:49:13 am »
infurl stop being grumpy.
We got this far, now Statement 5 is one of the big punches, you gotta read it. If I knew this far, how farther do I know? And I'm telling yous!



Some important thoughts (intake them, but don't think Statement 5 is as weak):

Yes!! I think you made a discovery on your own lol! You get an award. That's what I'm hinting at. The way we get the ones of tomorrow will be more so from that human brain knowledge that is thinking/simulating the world using facts. So in a sense we actual seek the knowledge of tomorrow. But I'm not saying real world is out either, discoveries come from lab/jungle tests too, and you can't learn to skateboard much if told the knowledge "push left foot hard forward on board" unless do the accidental trial and error thing right raw smack in the real world. About the 3 worlds: Yes there is the real world, but the perceived reality is the hollodeck - it is that simulat-in knowledge - yes vision and sound too is your knowledge. Whether it be sequences or static image of a pig that has a long tongue and a bug on that tongue that comes with that feature.

The idea was to get everyone to understand YES we want AGI, it will change so much, helping us get cures for cancer and gifts and food and...but ok what is AGI, well now you sorta know, it's what we want - that stuff that awaits tomorrow. That knowledge of tomorrow. AGI has to GET us that stuff of tomorrow. And since knowledge can describe all those things, then we can say we need the new knowledge of tomorrow. And so that's what AGI is, that knowledge we need of tomorrow. At least partially. A knowledge net is your main central point to discover/learn. It allows you to see patterns, things that have the same things in the real world or in your mind. And that works whether you do it in your brain or see 2 similar things under a lab microscope. But many of our ideas come from the brain. Our main desires - ifff we will look under that microscope that day, or goof off that day, or will try to work on inventing new fishing rods, direct us to what and where we will have the chance to put 1 and 1 together and see a relation. Those relations allow you to slowly slide from A to B, like we did in this thread, slowly explaining the reasoning behind the knowledge that I came to.

Somewhat unfinished paragraph: We more so seek the knowledge of tomorrow than seek accidentally acquiring the tools or procedures of tomorrow because although that alone doesn't put a new TV/AGI in your room it no doubt can speed up what to do to get one - if you Knew how to code AGI, I'm sure we would have it a lot quicker than hoping random keyboard smashing would evolve it through brute force. If you had the knowledge of tomorrow, like to first stick your arm out and tap your finger hard etc, then you could know what procedures to do, and the description of what tools to build/use including the description of how to build/use them, and you would have the knowledge of tomorrow too of course. This Statement also says there is still some tools, skills, and knowledge that come naturally by accident - for example you can't skateboard fast no matter what knowledge you are told, being told to push your left foot forward on the board only helps a certain amount.



Anyhow. Let's sum up what we got so far. Let's get the idea better. I said a bit too much at the end of Statement 4, it wasn't totally needed. So below is the new Statement 4. I assume, since it was inside of the Statement 4 that was last presented, that it is likely still True. If True, proceed to Statement 5 below. I admit 5 is long, but by the end you'll see it is clear. May have the same issue, but it's well said, all there, and end is really understood.

Statement 4: Tools, procedures (things 'moving'), and knowledge, the ones of tomorrow, that can be described by knowledge - some can be discovered by coming to the idea in your brain first instead of in the real world.

Statement 5: Tools, procedures (things 'moving'), and knowledge, the ones of tomorrow, that can be described by knowledge - some can be discovered by coming to the idea in your brain first instead of in the real world. IF the ones of tomorrow don't come by pure accident ex. volcano, evolution (e.g. humans, reflexes, desired mate look), your unintentional fist smashing, or skateboarding like pro only by natural random-ish trial & error movements tested not really by being told knowledge how to...then you will have to had come to the idea in your mind, and then intellectually and intentionally built the tool, or performed the procedures, or made a tool perform procedures. And the way you come to it in your mind, isn't a total natural accident like the others are bizarre, you generate up something that is much more likely the answer, and it is by either mind and/or real world comparisons that you accept or reject it. You may see something or think something up and accept it or reject it depending on if what you know relates to it to approve of it or to disapprove of it. I am in fact trying to do this right here! That's why you decide if this new knowledge I invented and am presenting is good or trash. In a sense, this artificial way for getting the ones of tomorrow is faster than waiting for then naturally, because we generate desired ideas and then 'slide' to the new ideas by approving them against the old ones we do have. IOW knowledge of tomorrow - certain ones over testing them ALL - generated in a mind by *desired concepts, validated True/Bad by either by mind and/or real world 'lab' observations, is the faster artificial way to "get" the idea to come over naturally coming and then as simple as making it tangible and reality by then building/performing them. IOW the ones of tomorrow that we desire, come faster if our brains know what we want, then it is as simple as generating some variations of the ones we desire, validating them against the old we know and love/hate, and then since we already "Know" it, we just have to perform or build the tool into reality (simple conversion)! All ideas/desires in human brains we have lead us to our answers of tomorrow sooner than waiting for nature to do it instead, that's because we try to generate them as knowledge using building blocks, even adding a mix of lab microbe data, then try to validate them using the old knowledge, and finally come to the Solution quite fast technically, and then implement it with ease, at least on the high level maybe only needing now some details.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2018, 04:11:56 am by LOCKSUIT »
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2018, 06:00:35 am »
I like it. Basically I agree.
I also went on a bit of a tangent trying to put it into my own words, which promptly ended when I reached what looked like a paradox. Typical problem when attempting armchair science lol:

Consecutive approximations through judgements on similarity. Seems like ideas develop like those genetic algorithm creatures. Select for similarity to goal (eg, move to the right of the screen), then make a new generation based on the best creatures, approaching the goal is easy because we have very good similarity detectors in our brains. That's why English speaking people use the word "like" a lot. It's not their fault lol. We can't help but see everything in terms of "likeness" to other things. Knowledge builds on knowledge. The more things you got in your mind the more chances of them being similar to an unknown, which then becomes easier to solve.  Also means you can derail yourself, the ability to spot the tiniest similarity allows you to reach the wildest conclusions. The very thing that makes us efficient problem solvers makes us susceptible to convincing ourselves of nearly anything if we pursue it for long enough. Do we really want AGI to have this ability? Should be fine if ethics can be made to take precedence. *Without restricting freedom. Which looks like a paradox to me.

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2018, 03:42:26 pm »
"Also means you can derail yourself, the ability to spot the tiniest similarity allows you to reach the wildest conclusions"

Infurl has a black car



The more we know, the thicker and higher our yellow hierarchy pyramid gets. Trust still allows credible people to transfer info more easily to the old noggins.



"The very thing that makes us efficient problem solvers makes us susceptible to convincing ourselves of nearly anything if we pursue it for long enough.?"

It doesn't actually work, because everything links back to food. For most people, and for most of what we venture, ends up being for the good. I can't travel to a generated conclusion by 78 steps of persuading myself or by someone else's persuading no matter what if it is really wrong. Trying to persuade a christian to believe we came from evolution and are electro-chemical machines made to smile and teaching them about Computer Science is impossible enough, I've tried. No way I would be able to get myself, or a christian, to think that poking a wall that was made of metal approximately 678.555599 years ago and has a miniature hat taped to it using the cheapest tape and has a pic of Jupiter on it at coordinates X5 Z00.178 is the thing that would be a turn on, or at least possible one day for new brains. And yes, it is possible to be desired goal for a brain of tomorrow, anything can be a reward. The only safe guard in the end is gonna be as long as that reward isn't licking blood, or seeing people blow up, that would result in deaths just to get rewards. That, shouldn't and I bet won't become the way overall. Evolution started with the "spread" idea, and that used food/sex desires to do so...it will continue. Similarly the "spread" idea happens in our descriptive knowledge frontal cortexes to persuade people lol, using food reward.



Well, I didn't think we'd get this far lol...........................Thread complete !? I wonder if the other members agreed. How far did you hang on? What Statement # did you reach? 0? 3? 5? How much did you learn? Does everyone now understand what AGI entails, means, brings, does, and achieves? Solving problems of a wide domain = conversational intelligence. No wonder.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 07:25:36 pm by LOCKSUIT »
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2018, 04:37:46 pm »
See above.

Oh btw, just found this, it is interesting, looks like a net that discovers new knowledge.
https://www.dynatrace.com/platform/aiops/

LOL this looks like I'm somewhere bad
http://data-scientist.ch/category/big-data/
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 09:50:14 pm by LOCKSUIT »
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2018, 07:56:25 am »
I think the "devil" in life comes from the Causation (cause>effect) entropy of True/Good and False/bad answers or ways on Earth, where someone generates good ideas or good 'attack-proofs towards bad ideas' that prove and win. Everyone does things for maximal positive and minimal negative self-reward. When the devil comes, it may be often from a human's brain originated and not nature, or your own actions/tools. Maybe someone wants to pay you back free energy. Not sure here but its an idea.
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2018, 09:11:46 am »
Maybe being bilaterally symmetrical lifeforms facilitates dualistic thinking.

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2018, 12:53:27 pm »
May want to elaborate....after all the bitching I've done, I don't think 1-liners will win anyone over :D I don't even know what you're saying.
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2018, 09:14:55 pm »
Our bodies have a left and a right side. Maybe that makes us look at the world in a certain limited way.  Inspired to split things into halves like; left right, up down, hot cold, good bad, we naturally arrive at concepts like the devil.  So if some aliens with more complex biology visited us, our spectrum of behaviors might fall into a single section of their pie-chart of behaviors. If the aliens were big on politics, we might be seen as untameable dualistic radicals, and promptly dealt with.

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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2018, 09:58:57 pm »
If we were different...
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Re: A really fun and simple way to persuade brains
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2018, 01:39:26 am »
I think that's already been established. O0
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