The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2019, 11:27:04 am »
Can you think of one example of a decision where a fair logical outcome is required and only emotion would provide the correct answer, but applying intelligence wouldn't’?


Giving your life so someone else could live.

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ivan.moony

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2019, 11:51:10 am »
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Some people actually do see ghosts and hear voices but they are not coming from reality, they are being generated by their own consciousness.

What you don't experience, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Try to explain dreams, you certainly experienced that, and maybe you'll discover more about examples you mentioned.

Can you think of one example of a decision where a fair logical outcome is required and only emotion would provide the correct answer, but applying intelligence wouldn't’?


Giving your life so someone else could live.

Actually that is the only sane thing to do because someone should consider his life worth less than anyone else's. Pure logic? Or pure irrationality? I couldn't tell, but it just sounds right. Although it's a recipe for disaster, better don't think about that.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 12:11:26 pm by ivan.moony »
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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2019, 11:58:29 am »
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Giving your life so someone else could live.

Haha…

That’s a very human thing to do, nice one, but that’s hardly a fair logical outcome, especially for the one making the sacrifice.

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Try to explain dreams

https://sites.google.com/view/korrtecx/brain-theory#h.p_J0bMa3ZQLMM0

 :)
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ivan.moony

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2019, 12:10:38 pm »
So, basically, we are the authors of our own dreams?
Dream big. The bigger the dream is, the more beautiful place the world becomes.

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2019, 12:18:06 pm »
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Giving your life so someone else could live.

Haha…

That’s a very human thing to do, nice one, but that’s hardly a fair logical outcome, especially for the one making the sacrifice.

You've just married your childhood sweetheart who you love dearly. This day has been your lifelong dream, to marry her, set up house and have a family. People are throwing rice as you come out of the hall where you got married. Every one is standing around with smiles on their faces. It's the happiest day of your life...


She steps into the street and is frozen at the sight of a speeding car a matter of yards from her. You look over just in time to see her freeze in place and see the car barreling toward her.

You have 2 choices: Logic and Emotional Response:

1. You're close enough to her that you could lunge and push her out of harms way but the car will hit and kill you. Emotion

2. Let her die so that you might live. Logic.

What to do... What to do...

You don't have time to think! The car is getting closer and closer!

Only act to save her life or by inaction act to save your own. What's it going to be?  ;)

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goaty

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2019, 12:25:50 pm »
Its not necessarily logical to save yourself... it actually depends on the desired concepto-situational outcome, if the machine would do it or not.
I guess we do things very passionately, but the machine could possibly weigh up the conceptual future and what is it assigned for max probability, of what its memory banks could detect - is what a machine would do. (waving its arms and legs about.)

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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2019, 12:38:36 pm »
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So, basically, we are the authors of our own dreams?

You can only experience what you personally simulate; you have no other external influences except you outward senses.  Your brain is creating the narrative of a dream as a consequence engraining new learning during sleep.  A concept is created from millions of small facets, so you are quite capable dreaming of things you have never actually experienced.  It’s the recombining of the base facets that creates new concepts and possible ideas that may or may not be useful whilst awake.

A black face in the shape of triangle floating in the air is just a recombination of known attributes of other concepts; it’s created from the ‘generality’ of your knowledge and memories.

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You have 2 choices: Logic and Emotional Response.

So you are saying that saving her is not a morel (moral lol), logical thing to do?

 :)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:55:22 pm by Korrelan »
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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2019, 12:45:38 pm »
So you are saying that saving her is not a morel, logical thing to do?

I'm saying a morel is a mushroom.  :D

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Can you think of one example of a decision where a fair logical outcome is required and only emotion would provide the correct answer, but applying intelligence wouldn't’?

When did morals come into this? I thought we were talking about logic and emotions.

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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2019, 01:06:46 pm »
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When did morals come into this?

So you are saying that morals are emotionally derived, not logically? Hehe!

Even without the morals the correct decision could be arrived at logically. There has to be an intelligence aspect to the decision, noticing of the scene, calculating the trajectories required to recognise the situation, can I make it in time. I'm stronger and more robust than her and more likely to survive; I might even manage to clear us both… and so on. Emotion only hinders this process; you would have a better chance of success without it.

Emotion without intelligence results in spite, jealousy, etc.

I don’t think this is a clear cut emotion, logic decision scenario.

 :)

Ed: Don't mock the afflicted, the spellings been pointed out lol
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 03:15:22 pm by Korrelan »
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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2019, 01:07:23 pm »
SO we're now thinking about Moral vs Logic vs Emotion. That's quite a mix and it is a possible mixture that one, two or all three can be combined for a decision.

While life is full of real decisions and dreams are filled with self-created scenarios, which would best benefit your creation?

Humans have a need to procreate or perhaps a desire to care for something. If the latter is the case, get a puppy, kitten or house plant!

At times we spend far too many cycles Overthinking something instead of just going with it and adjusting our thinking along the journey, when possible.

Just some thoughts.
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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2019, 03:19:53 pm »
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When did morals come into this?

So you are saying that morels are emotionally derived, not logically? Hehe!

No, you're the one who keeps mentioning morels. Mushrooms have nothing to do with it. :)

Morals can have very little to do with it if it comes down to the logic of the decision. Pump up emotions and logic just gets in the way of the objective after a point. Morals struggle to get a word in edgewise. Hopefully logic will prevail before the signpost up ahead reads the Twilight Zone and emotions take the wheel. Morals already said this is where I get out.


I was sitting outside my building at 4am smoking a stogie the other day when a guy I had never seen before came walking up and started talking to me. He said he was walking home and had 8 miles to go.

All but a few blocks of it would be down a 2 lane highway in 40 degree F weather and it was going to start raining before he got home. I felt sorry for him so I gave him a ride home.

I had been sitting there because I was watching to make sure nobody stole my clothes out of the dryer and they still had 40 minutes to go. He was kind of out there, more lost in thought than anything, and could have had a knife in me before I knew he had it out riding down the dark highway. Gas for my vehicle is $3 a gallon and it probably cost me $5 to give him a ride home.

Any number of bad things could have happened that logically nobody else in the building would have taken a chance happening. It wasn't a moral decision and it wasn't the logical thing to do. I just didn't want to see him have to walk home.

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goaty

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2019, 03:38:11 pm »
Even without the morals the correct decision could be arrived at logically. There has to be an intelligence aspect to the decision, noticing of the scene, calculating the trajectories required to recognise the situation, can I make it in time. I'm stronger and more robust than her and more likely to survive; I might even manage to clear us both… and so on. Emotion only hinders this process; you would have a better chance of success without it.

Yes, its so easy to say the truth of what you want in a.i.  its just hard to actually put it into an explicit method.

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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2019, 04:37:26 pm »
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Morals can have very little to do with it if it comes down to the logic of the decision. Pump up emotions and logic just gets in the way of the objective after a point. Morals struggle to get a word in edgewise. Hopefully logic will prevail before the signpost up ahead reads the Twilight Zone and emotions take the wheel. Morals already said this is where I get out.

Which is exactly why I don’t think a machine needs emotions, if a human looses their cool it can be messy, imagine what a hydraulically powered steel machine could do, nope.

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I was sitting outside my building at 4am smoking a stogie

I get it, you felt sorry for him, and you let your emotions rule your logic.  He would have made it home eventually, it was his decision to walk and I personally think you took an unnecessary risk, especially at 4AM with a total stranger.

I wonder if you would still be using it as an example if he had knifed you, or worse.

I sincerely hope you luck holds out, the world is running out of kind considerate people… there all being murdered lol.

 :)
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Hopefully Something

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2019, 05:49:15 pm »
I wake up and there's all this free reading tailored to my interests!  ;D

@Ruebot
That was one brave, trusting, kind, and yes, risky, action. But these things are also teaching by example. Who knows how far the influence of such actions can spread?

@Nothing to do with any of these posts...
I think I’ll cook up some morels for breakfast.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 06:18:12 pm by Hopefully Something »

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2019, 02:04:23 am »
I wonder if you would still be using it as an example if he had knifed you, or worse.

I sincerely hope you luck holds out, the world is running out of kind considerate people… there all being murdered lol.

It was a judgment call on him.

I know he had been there before because he asked where my bicycle was. I don't have one but another guy who lives there does.He was no physical threat to me sitting where were had been talking.

I saw him long before he ever got to me. Chances were he was a crackhead but once he started talking he was very mild mannered and soft-spoken. I have years of experience working with mentally ill people who could go off on you at any time for any reason. He did ramble but I didn't feel he was a physical threat to me, I'm more physically intimidating than he was.

Nobody else would have cared if he had to walk home or not, or have offered him a ride because I know how they are. That's why I was sitting outside at 4am watching my clothes so nobody would steal them. The Security Guard, who I can't stand, would have called the Police on him for just being there.

He was of a different ethnic origin than me (OMG). Once we were on the way to his house he said the State Patrol picked him up to give him a ride home then wouldn't let him out of the car because the house looked too nice for him to live in.

It didn't make him any more of a threat in my eyes than someone of my ethnicity, and probably less so. I didn't feel threatened at all when I offered him a ride. It's a multi-cultured building and him being there was nothing out of the ordinary. You always have to be wary because conflict or scam could present itself at any time but I wasn't worried.

It was a beautiful house way out in the country with a natural wood finish. I though had been talking crap about something and when we got there he opened the garage door and there was the motorcycle he had been talking about he had built but didn't run, and we had both laughed about that.

He rolled out the red carpet and invited me to stay over, that he had steaks and named several other things he would cook up for a feast. I didn't want to get drawn into a big ordeal and said I had to get back because my clothes were still in the dryer. He invited me back anytime.

They were only a few minutes from being done when I got back and while there was someone else who had started their laundry, mine was all still there. I went back to my apartment and was none the worse for it. I'll probably never see him again.


A machine might be able to sense his heart rate, do a voice stress test, etc to make a judgment call like that. I made it from experience and sized him up within a few minutes. He had done the same and sized me up to know I wasn't a bigot before he ever sat down.

He would have been able to knife or pull a gun on me in the truck. I'd have had slam on the brakes to throw him into the windshield or take some drastic action if he didn't just kill me before I had the chance, and I wouldn't have had to think it over.

I'd have felt guilty for a long time if I didn't give him a ride home so that was my reason for giving him a ride. Not morally, but because I could have helped him and didn't.

 


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