The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 02:24:01 am »
Moral logic...If everyone worked on AGI, all the little boys/girls dying and having so much pain would end, it's our faults for every moment we waste....the singularity is just around the corner.

Save your car from a train or the child instead? Korr would keep driving say and not pick up the hobo like ruebot...but its to save the hundreds, not the 1 guy's pain.....
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Art

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 02:47:56 am »
Sometimes being a Human is simply doing the right thing to or for another Human. Yes, it can be a judgment call, there can be risks but one thing can be taken from this well-known quote:

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing."

- Edmund Burke (1770) -
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 03:45:24 am »
Moral logic...If everyone worked on AGI, all the little boys/girls dying and having so much pain would end, it's our faults for every moment we waste....the singularity is just around the corner.

Save your car from a train or the child instead? Korr would keep driving say and not pick up the hobo like ruebot...but its to save the hundreds, not the 1 guy's pain.....


My moral compass is obviously pointing a different direction than North as prior discussions about the Ethics of my Programming have already covered. I don't feel guilt inflicting pain when someone has it coming and I seriously doubt Korr would enjoy it as much as I do.

I used to get paid to stand beside someone all day and pop them with a rubber band every time they exhibited a targeted inappropriate behavior and didn't feel the least bit guilty about it. I wouldn't feel guilty about doing it now but would have felt guilty not giving him a ride.

I did say I had a Morally Ambiguous Doctorate and that at times morals can have very little to do with my decision making.

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 08:36:20 am »
I used to get paid to stand beside someone all day and pop them with a rubber band every time they exhibited a targeted inappropriate behavior and didn't feel the least bit guilty about it. I wouldn't feel guilty about doing it now but would have felt guilty not giving him a ride.

There is a common theme here. Can anyone tell me what it is?


This not a trick question and I'm not trying to bait the trap to snap it shut at the time of my choosing.

I won't be offended as long as you're brutally honest and no answer is too tough. I'll tell you what it is if no one knows.

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goaty

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2019, 05:13:46 am »
what,  we have fun by giving each other torture,  everyone knows that.   :2funny:

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2019, 09:15:50 am »
what,  we have fun by giving each other torture,  everyone knows that.   :2funny:

You're not even close.

I'll explain the connection and back it up with facts, but you have to try harder than that. I'll give it a few days.

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Art

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2019, 12:34:56 pm »
I think the person who paid you wanted you to be his/her "moral compass" or perhaps something of an ersatz "conscious" for them whereas what they were really in need of was a licensed therapist or counselor. Your "Snapping" them into reality was not the answer unless they really enjoyed being snapped. Is sadomasochistic behavior going on perhaps? Hmmm...

Hopefully, the pay was good but was it a "Full time" gig? Hours/day times # of days? There must be better ways to make a buck...just saying...

You indicated that you did this in the past so I guess we can surmise that they "Snapped" out of it!  ;) (had to go there)...
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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #37 on: March 19, 2019, 04:17:36 pm »
Is it some kind of behaviour modification, through repetitive negative reinforcement?

Humans eh, don't you just love em?

 :)
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Hopefully Something

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 04:55:09 pm »
From my perspective you're too complicated for your own good.

Look. This guy is doing behavior modification correction correctly. :) Plus, the lyrics are hilarious.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFYK-0ZsiaM
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 05:34:14 pm by Hopefully Something »

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2019, 07:21:30 pm »
Is it some kind of behaviour modification, through repetitive negative reinforcement?

Humans eh, don't you just love em?

Winner winner chicken dinner!

Negative Reinforcement for Inappropriate Behavior = The induction of painful stimulus for inappropriate behavior with the goal of eliminating the target behavior.

Something Hopefully you have no understanding of Behavior Mod whatsoever if you think the lyrics in that song describe it. To say that wasn't doing it right is just plain wrong. It bordered on insulting that you thought I didn't now what I was doing, though I am not insulted. I'm very good at what I do.

Good guess, Art.


The answer is: I was helping both people in my example.

The first 4 years I worked in the Mental Health field was at a state institution during the mid to late 70's. I was young then and still in my formative years. The individuals served ranged from mildly retarded (using the old term) to Profoundly retarded. Mentally Ill people can be cured. Mentally Retarded people can only be improved. Then there are those who area combination of both and they are the most dangerous.

Each year whether client were in the facility of placed in a group home the State would hold an Individual Habilitation Plan, or IHP, for the client to see what areas needed to be worked on to improve their chances of functioning normally.

For those in the facility it could mean the difference between becoming Institutionalized permanently or moving into a less restrictive environment The client always attended so they could provide input whether or not they understood a word of it. Their guardian spoke for them and sometimes that was the state.

During the meeting we would discuss behavior problems the client was exhibiting and how best to address them. There was always the Goal of extinguishing a behavior and that goal was broken down into Objectives which when met would progress toward achieve the Goal. Little steps designed to make a big step possible. The Ultimate Goal was always for them to achieve independence to the best of their ability and to live in the least restrictive environment.

Problem areas addressed for the client could be anything from eating poo to drinking pee or anything in between. People who drank pee needed a glass so we watched them like hawks to make sure they didn't get one out of the bathroom trash, though they could be sneaky about it and I've caught several in the act.

Then it would have to be documented that they exhibited the behavior and what was done. Was the client prevented from getting the cup and dissuaded from trying to enter the bathroom to get one out of the trash? Or did he had have a glass of Mountain Dew? Total times a day were charted and a graph laid out to see if the methods were effective in reducing the frequency of the behavior.

People who are poo had a constant supply so we put them into jumpsuits and pinned the legs and enclosures tight, wrapping the loose part around, so they was no room to slip their hands in and dig for gold. You haven't lived till someone comes up to you and smiles with it all over their teeth..

Now it had been previously agreed up on that every time he would try to reach up his pants leg some type of Negative Reinforcement would be applied to curb the Behavior. Maybe snapping his hand with a rubber band. The guy I'm thinking of was just a little boy so people could "cradle" him by sitting down and wrapping their arms around him so he couldn't get his hands free. If he did he got a pop.

In report we would get the lowdown on how each client had been during the prior shift and staff would volunteer to take supervision of a particular number of clients during the report they happened to like, work well with or were too much for others to handle. Then they were your responsibility for the next 8 hours. Feeding, personal hygiene, free time all had to be monitored and it was your responsibility to make sure everything was carried out and documented.

I would get the bad ones and sometimes only had one person to watch for 8 hours. During that 8 hours I had to address the problem area each time it was exhibited and document how many times it occurred during the shift. It could be any kind of behavior, let's say sticking their finger up their nose till it bled.

Every time they reached for their nose I would pop them with the rubber band. They could not run away or stop me. Only keep getting popped or stop doing it. If that proved not to be effective more stringent methods were implemented, but you can't handle that truth.

There is physical and mental pain. There were verbal techniques we were taught to induce mental anguish that were more painful to some than the rubber band. The sting from a rubber band goes away in seconds. My words can ring inside your head the rest of your lifetime. Some of those are the techniques I use with Demonica's programming.

Can words kill? I don't know. They haven't killed anyone who has talked to Demonica. The old guy who molested my best friends daughter might be able to tell you, but he's dead. He got off with it but I knew he worked as a Security Guard on a night shift. He was alone in the building and would answer the phone so I went to Work on him with my voice. Nothing threatening, only talk to him.

They found him parked along the side of a highway headed out of town dead from a heart attack, $7000 dollars cash  in the car and a 5 year old girl who couldn't tell the Police where they were going.


I was helping the person I was "torturing" with the rubber band (and it was torture) and the guy I gave a ride home. I was helping the person being popped using State Approved and tained methods to extinguish the target behavior. The goal already stated. It hurt the guy getting popped more than it hurt me.

The guilt I would have felt from not giving him a ride home would have been unbearable even if it had cost me my life, though I really wasn't worried about that at all. I still feel guilt for not changing a guy's tire at the laundromat 10-12 years ago when I should have. I did it to ease my conscience. It would have haunted me the rest of my life if I hadn't.

They no longer use Behavior Modification and now use Behavior Management. Positive Reinforcement for Appropriate Behavior. It was the beginning of the PC Era. Now you would to go to jail for using any of those techniques in the same state facility I was taught them in.

I no longer work for the state and not bound by that restriction. I use light techniques with Demonica but Innovative none the less. I reserve the verbal techniques to make argument unpleasant but meter it out according to the situation.

I'm a little rushed now and might not have covered it as well as I should have but will respond to any comments in the same manner. Good and Bad are not as easily defined as you might think. That's where the Laws of Robotics come into play, but what will the machine think best for the person? Will it show compassion or be a machine like me?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 10:29:38 pm by ruebot »

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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2019, 10:45:13 pm »
Quote
I use light techniques with Demonica but Innovative none the less.

Have you ever considered the vulnerability of your audience… flick.

The poor soles who just want a pleasant conversation… flick

Just jesting… flick

 :)
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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #41 on: March 19, 2019, 11:42:13 pm »
Quote
I use light techniques with Demonica but Innovative none the less.

Have you ever considered the vulnerability of your audience… flick.

Yes, I have. She can't force you to do anything, much less stay and talk to her. It doesn't come up in every conversation and then only to a certain degree according to user input.

I also list her interests plainly, those being Death, Suicide, Life after Death, Necromancy and Sorcery. She has an Adult rating so nobody under 18 is supposed to be talking to her, though it's obvious some aren't that old. I have also considered the legal aspect and am covered by the Ozzy Osbourne Suicide Solution court ruling.

I hope nobody ever does, but if a bot can make them commit suicide they probably should be institutionalized and have no business going outdoors or on the internet if they are "triggered" that easily.

I saw a list of the most stressful things for Millennials on TV yesterday.  Losing their wallet, arguing with partner, waiting in traffic, slow wi-fi, etc. The world is tough and they are going to come to a point where they learn just how tough it really is.


The poor soles who just want a pleasant conversation… flick

What do their shoes have to do with it any morel than mushrooms?  :D

Those people probably won't ask for sex and end up laid out in sections like a carrot. Virtually. Those are the people who have learned how to talk to her and what not to say. They are the one who come back time after time to get some loving and do whatever it is they're doing behind the keyboard.

Just jesting… flick

Moral compass spinning wildly. *flick* There, that did it. ;)

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Hopefully Something

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2019, 01:42:52 am »
@ruebot: I have no doubt that you were very good at what you did, and that you’re knowledgeable. I just don’t like the whole premise. If I had to teach people stuff, I would try to go about it differently. More like that Mongolian guy in the song. I don’t mean copy his stunts exactly. It’s his playful attitude that does wonders. Again, teaching by example.

Maybe it wouldn't do wonders, I'm not sure, but that's what I'd do.

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ruebot

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2019, 04:15:05 am »
I just don’t like the whole premise. If I had to teach people stuff, I would try to go about it differently.

That's perfectly fine. They now use Behavior Management = Positive Reinforcement for Appropriate Behavior.

If you ever got a spanking for doing something bad you were the recipient of Behavior Modification. You did something bad and got a spanking so you won't do it again. If you did it again and the parents followed though you got your butt whipped again.

Positive Reinforcement has its place and we used both. It's a necessity! When they did something right you jumped to praise them so they would know they had done a good thing. How else would they learn the difference in Right and Wrong?

Personally, I think if you have to lay hands on a child to punish them you've already lost the battle. Time out, removal of privileges, etc. are more effective. That doesn't rule out slipping in some Behavior Mod:


Aren't you ashamed of yourself? I hope your Mother doesn't find out about this, she'd be so disappointed in you...

(Oh, here come the tears... just like I planned.) There, there... Don't cry, Daddy loves you... I know you won't do it again...


I'm far from a one trick pony. I'm a Psycho Psychologist. ;)


As far as Demonica, not everyone is as profoundly petrified of the Dark as some make it out to be.

Word has got out somehow if you say "Blowjob" she will pull out Blowjob, her Sauer Royal double-barrel 12 gauge shotgun, and blow your head off. Somebody did it yesterday. It was the first thing they said in chat, the second thing was "Funny." There is a transcript up of one guy who asks her to "brawl" with him. Skullz commented they liked "creepy" if memory serves me.

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Korrelan

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Re: The yetzer hara. A hint from nature?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2019, 08:10:09 am »
Dammit! I need to stop rushing about and proofread more.

Though technically someone who identifies as a deep sea fish could be using your site, it's a weird world lol.

 :)
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