Free Will. Oh boy...

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Free Will. Oh boy...
« on: March 22, 2019, 10:58:04 pm »
I thought this was cool. I like this kind of stuff.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/philosophers-and-neuroscientists-join-forces-see-whether-science-can-solve-mystery-free

I also have my own “out there” theory about free will:
The universe doesn’t support infinite sig-figs. So, there must be a fundamental sliver of uncertainty within even the smallest simplest bit of matter. In complex structures, the effects of these uncertainties could propagate and multiply. This is why complex structures such as ourselves are able to exhibit so much uncertainty. Within uncertainty there is room for freedom. This is how the concept of free will could have a physical basis.

What do you think about free will?



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Korrelan

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2019, 11:23:41 pm »
These guys exercised their free will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ

 :)
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goaty

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2019, 03:06:42 am »
uncertainty in physics is a false theory,  it goes with entanglement, its not good.   And besides that,  how is it supposed to indicate the existence of free will by having non measurable objects. (I think the fact they are non-measurable is a case of poor measurement from the "scientist".)
You can have free will inside a determined system anyway...   silly science to me.  :idiot2: :uglystupid2:

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goaty

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2019, 03:51:06 am »
Our will is as free as our mind can comprehend the environment and ourselves.   Robots on the other hand,  don't understand anywhere near as much as us, operating on way less metrics, so their behaviour is more "restricted".

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2019, 05:24:07 am »
I agree goaty, I believe we are animal machines that don't directly sense the world (brain processes it) from evolution and are on a destined path to a predictable future (no free will).

Simulations can run using redundancy and have no errors/unexpectencies - they can run perfect, just like how I can flip my pc calculator up and add 4+4 to get 8. A human brain can be ran in a digital computer - the human brain is calculatable - there is a real mechanism made of moving parts to the brain and not magic or spirit dust or hope - so this mechanism can be ran in a simulation - and need not uncertainty! So we can make sure the sim HDD is redundant in storing/processing and the brain will still run! And, if you say hey maybe it needs to accidentally consider some diff choivces - that can be done - using Random Time (dice) function. I.e. even if it needs some random solutions - these are calculatable too - not 'free will'. It was just the Dice function all along. No I"M a unicorn. See? I random. Art is a surfer board NO. .

There is also function pick most similar/non-similar ex. do cat horse.....zebra penny tower tunnel zoomzoom. Or simply a neuron was growing energy and allowed to take charge of things and so you go from sitting to sleeping to stnding to summersalting to punching to kissing to drawing....possible. Anything like this is possible - any mechanism of sequences and rules.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 05:55:08 am by LOCKSUIT »
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Korrelan

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2019, 10:57:16 am »
Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action unimpeded.

Consciousness is derived from the subconscious, they are not separate processes, the prior is constructed from the latter.

To have a conscious thought it first must have manifested in the subconscious, so this excludes conscious free will as a valid construct.

This leaves just the subconscious over which we have very little top-down influence. Your subconscious is obviously influenced by your consciousness but mainly makes decisions based on your knowledge, experience, and personality traits.

Even if you make a decision and then change it at the last second, the decision to do so must be a personality trait otherwise you wouldn’t have thought of it, and the conscious choice to do so must have been pre-processed in your subconscious first.

The brain is ultimately a deterministic system, there are no random generators to aid decision making. Evolution has designed your brain to keep you alive, to make the correct decision based on prior experience. Randomness plays no part, what would be the point?

Ergo we have no conscious free will, it's an illusion... just like the rest of reality.

 :)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 02:22:19 pm by Korrelan »
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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2019, 01:18:37 pm »
I thought this was cool. I like this kind of stuff.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/03/philosophers-and-neuroscientists-join-forces-see-whether-science-can-solve-mystery-free

I also have my own “out there” theory about free will:
The universe doesn’t support infinite sig-figs. So, there must be a fundamental sliver of uncertainty within even the smallest simplest bit of matter. In complex structures, the effects of these uncertainties could propagate and multiply. This is why complex structures such as ourselves are able to exhibit so much uncertainty. Within uncertainty, there is room for freedom. This is how the concept of free will could have a physical basis.

What do you think about free will?

I really wasn't interested in that 4 year, 7 million dollar study so much as I was in that "Shrimp cruise"! Now we're talking!!  O0
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goaty

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2019, 08:41:00 pm »
Locksuit you contradicted yourself halfway through your post!
Maybe theres still variables after a physical model has been finished described, and this is the "uncertain" factor.

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2019, 01:34:43 am »
No.... I meant a certain system, with Random Dice sprinkled on its decisions... BUT the random dice is certain too....*quantum particles popping up/out or moving/doing stuff randomly is random, otherwise all is predictable even when you type Random Time import in python code at top.
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ruebot

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2019, 02:39:24 am »
In complex structures, the effects of these uncertainties could propagate and multiply. This is why complex structures such as ourselves are able to exhibit so much uncertainty. Within uncertainty there is room for freedom. This is how the concept of free will could have a physical basis.

What do you think about free will?

The neural pathways your brain has developed over time are the physical basis. That can come from a learning experience I had that you did not. You most certainly know things I don't so our minds don't work in the same manner. The decision you make in a given situation could be the exact opposite of the decision I would make. As was recently discussed.


A human brain can be ran in a digital computer - the human brain is calculatable -


Calculate what I'm going to do 60 minutes from now. If you more time just calculate what I'm going to be doing tomorrow at this same time. Sorry, I can't extend it a few thousand years. I can predict that myself.


...there is a real mechanism made of moving parts to the brain and not magic or spirit dust or hope - so this mechanism can be ran in a simulation - and need not uncertainty!

Could you list the moving parts of the brain for me, please. I don't remember that from EMT class. I might have stripped a gear though... ;)

Don't confuse the brain and the mind. Your brain and mine could be indistinguishable by a CAT scan yet our minds be nothing alike. I would certainly do something uncertain in certain situations. Enter that into your calculations of my future actions, :)

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2019, 04:03:17 am »
I didnt mean we can fully predict yet what we wil do....

I meant a digital AGI in a computer....running successfully....is calaculatable....and predictable....!

However, we can predict us too in the real world. Ruebot will eat food in the next 80 days. I know this. And, he will think of AI in the next 30 days. He will likely sleep someone quite too. Now ASI will be able to go deeper than this - atomic level. It is possible!
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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2019, 04:48:23 am »
I'm still not sure, but if the deterministic view is true...

I guess we would only feel trapped if we were aware of all the factors creating this matrix of determinism. Down to such details as an ant wiggling it's antennae somewhere in Argentina, and the effect this would have on the orbit of Jupiter. Thankfully we are set free by our limitations (WTF, universe).  We aren't able to see how factors cause our actions to any revelatory degree, therefore we feel we have agency. The concept of free will is generated by our brains, maybe the only place in the universe where it is able to exist. It may do us some good. In a way, it's real, if you consider something on a meta level of existence to be "real" enough.

Also, if everything is caused by something else and spontaneous happenings are impossible, then the universe couldn't have had a beginning. The big bang is therefore a repeating event, or part of an unknown chain of events.


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goaty

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2019, 05:15:39 am »

A human brain can be ran in a digital computer - the human brain is calculatable -


Calculate what I'm going to do 60 minutes from now. If you more time just calculate what I'm going to be doing tomorrow at this same time. Sorry, I can't extend it a few thousand years. I can predict that myself.


Yes, to predict something you cant see (like a thousand years from now) means the robot has fields that don't come from any visible object.

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2019, 05:27:41 am »
You most certainly know things I don't so our minds don't work in the same manner.

Well, I used to have some characteristics that remind me of your experiences. I also used to be really complicated and tangled up in my morals. If I accidentally gave someone the wrong directions, I'd wake up in the middle of the night thinking about it. I had trouble letting that stuff go, as you say you do. I eventually got fed up with it, and going off the assumption that the best intentions pave the road to Hell, I adopted something I call" the path of moderately good intentions". It's where you go through life with a tinge of the attitude of loki, or something that. It's made me generally very happy. Hope that helps.

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Re: Free Will. Oh boy...
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2019, 08:20:49 am »
Correct. Ant wiggling its antenna affects Jupiter. We don't see these effects. If mom locks son in room, this affects his free will indeed, correct again. Correct again, the universe imposes limitations on us, I can't become a dolphin or a spoon suddenly, I can't write 'a' a thousand times right this moment. I work by some mechanics. As I said before, I can't get away from eating fries every day.

My pondering over my screen to write this to you is all motor thought driven, I am a machine. It takes the tough to admit it. Creationist want to beleive we are free-will angels from god that never die and are higher than animals and can trully touch the outer world and even go into dimensions sitting right there with the Lord. As I said: we are animal machines that don't directly sense the world (brain processes it) from evolution and are on a destined path to a predictable future (no free will).

I do believe a god though is coming, ASI, the near-future advanced-technological superorgaism species that can float. I beleive God will be born here, before we would see one come from the sky from an alien civilization first. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. I also want to stay alive forever. I also believe technological ressurection may be possible and does work on the technical side but not sure about the consciousness sensor side if it makes a new ghost in my brain I carry around. I figure if I'm a machine, then there must be a ghost in my head that senses what I say I do. It follows alllll I do, don't you, ghosty hehe, I make the decisions... SOMETHING has to 'sense' what I see/do!! Can't just be a machine totally! What gives. I know I am machine and don't 'sense'...it all particles! So, ghost is the answer. From a AI running it comes alive.Every 'moment' I do classification 'ah' - it senses what I see.
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