What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)

  • 9 Replies
  • 1517 Views
*

HS

  • Trusty Member
  • **********
  • Millennium Man
  • *
  • 1175
We are chasing symptoms, trusting actions, just playing pinball with the symbols. Y’all have a point when you say AI’s are mere machines. There should be a way to change that, but so far our approach isn’t allowing for life, or consciousness. I don’t believe that the thing which seems to be missing is only an illusion. That all you need to make someone, is a huge enough database, and a way to bring it up in order. No matter how accurately you simulate water in a video game it isn’t gonna be wet. Wind won’t be windy. Intelligence won’t be intelligent. Life won’t be alive.  Sometimes I feel that I understand aliveness, but don’t have the vocabulary to describe it, or the tools to recreate it. Then the moment goes. Like trying to grab water dammit!!  But when you freeze it with symbols, its not the same water anymore! It’s lifeless ice, nothing like the original phenomena. Some kind of unnerving, creepy, funny, quality of self knowledge which atoms absolutely shouldn’t posses. What are we missing?

*

goaty

  • Trusty Member
  • ********
  • Replicant
  • *
  • 552
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 06:52:18 am »
A.I. is supposed to be artificial and synthetic.   Theres not actually anything wrong with that,  its just I think ppl give up on things too early, instead of knuckling down and getting the hard stuff done.    Computers can animate creatures that are very life like, using brute force techniques like genetic algorythms and chess searches.   Chess AI is the most devalued thing right now, ppl think, its not even a.i. but ppl wont realize that it comes from a group of methods that search all possible locations, and that can be applied to ANYTHING!  :tickedoff:
With computers being able to speak - we have markov chains which have always been very fun for ppl to see what the crazy flat affect computer comes up with and is being developed now into this GPT-2 monster, and if we just possibly get NLP to some decent state of analysis of these language patterns,  it could get very close to human.

Its only a matter of time, but it has to be in a realistic form that actually works, so things aren't so simple.

*

goaty

  • Trusty Member
  • ********
  • Replicant
  • *
  • 552
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 11:36:24 am »
But on consciousness, I think that's its malpractice to do it, like operating on flys brains while they are alive to see how they work, maybe god protects them, but id rather just kill myself with cigarettes if I want to see the miracles happen.

But something similar to consciousness, something that thinks about itself, isn't actually consciousness to me,  I don't care how real you did it, theres always going to be some crack left out of it,  making it a soulless machine, and at that point, technology is so powerful, who knows why we even bother to even exist anymore, everything is so easy.  Best to get non conscious stuff done first.

*

Art

  • At the end of the game, the King and Pawn go into the same box.
  • Trusty Member
  • **********************
  • Colossus
  • *
  • 5865
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 12:31:32 pm »
HS, it is the nature, the very makeup of certain substances that cause them to not be handled in a similar manner as others...water, liquid mercury, jello and so on. It is so in our world.
The best we can do to simulate our world is through a physics-applied simulated environment but as you mentioned, we can only "imagine" being there, in that world. While our imagination allows us to do this, it is still the stark reality that brings us back to our very limited, real world.

Nail jello to a tree...sure but in a simulation...
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

*

HS

  • Trusty Member
  • **********
  • Millennium Man
  • *
  • 1175
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 09:15:51 pm »
I don't care how real you did it, theres always going to be some crack left out of it,  making it a soulless machine,

Interesting you should say that. I just found a Leonard Cohen song where he sings "there is a crack in everything, thats how the light gets in"
Two sides to every coin I guess.

 

*

goaty

  • Trusty Member
  • ********
  • Replicant
  • *
  • 552
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 11:21:59 pm »
Got one for you.

The full description of your brain cells in the current structure they are,  is not enough for it to make it HAPPEN.   its just an idea.
So im saying there could be soulless people, and its IMPOSSIBLE/UNDECIDABLE to tell.

So you must believe, and u can never know.

*

HS

  • Trusty Member
  • **********
  • Millennium Man
  • *
  • 1175
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2019, 11:55:01 pm »
Right. I'm kinda hedging my bets on the idea that you can make it HAPPEN with anything, Korr's complex thing, Lock's language processor, my physical net, even a chatbot. But you've got do do it in the right way, and as far as I can tell, no one has cracked the central mystery/mechanism of consciousness yet. Don't stop belivin! Hold on to that feeling!  O0

*

Art

  • At the end of the game, the King and Pawn go into the same box.
  • Trusty Member
  • **********************
  • Colossus
  • *
  • 5865
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 03:39:41 am »
Lyrics from "Journey". Nice one! O0
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

*

Korrelan

  • Trusty Member
  • ***********
  • Eve
  • *
  • 1454
  • Look into my eyes! WOAH!
    • YouTube
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 12:04:19 pm »
Quote
Korr's complex thing

That would have been a good name for my website lol.

IMO life/ intelligence cannot be synthesised by using words/ symbols/ logical constructs, etc.  Life is a complex ever changing/ evolving pattern/ physical structure constructed from memories and experiences.

Anyway… lets just say for the sake of argument that I have created a conscious/ self-aware AGI that exhibits most of the traits we deem to represent ‘being alive’.  Would I be wise to just release the information, the concept of life/ spirituality/ soul is extremely precious to most people.  Proving a machine can be just as ‘alive’ as a human is opening a whole can of whoop ass, it needs handling carefully/ thoughtfully.

So even if someone has succeeded there are still many problems to overcome, most people aren't ready or even able to understand such concepts, and what they don’t understand frightens them. 

You can’t just rout whole human belief systems; it’s not fair on the human race… or the machines.

 :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLvGnro4Cgw
« Last Edit: June 03, 2019, 12:24:45 pm by Korrelan »
It thunk... therefore it is!...    /    Project Page    /    KorrTecx Website

*

Art

  • At the end of the game, the King and Pawn go into the same box.
  • Trusty Member
  • **********************
  • Colossus
  • *
  • 5865
Re: What are we missing? (But when you freeze it, its not water!)
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2019, 07:27:54 pm »
IT'S  ALIVE!!!   IT'S ALIVE!!! O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

 


OpenAI Speech-to-Speech Reasoning Demo
by ivan.moony (AI News )
March 28, 2024, 01:31:53 pm
Say good-bye to GPUs...
by MikeB (AI News )
March 23, 2024, 09:23:52 am
Google Bard report
by ivan.moony (AI News )
February 14, 2024, 04:42:23 pm
Elon Musk's xAI Grok Chatbot
by MikeB (AI News )
December 11, 2023, 06:26:33 am
Nvidia Hype
by 8pla.net (AI News )
December 06, 2023, 10:04:52 pm
How will the OpenAI CEO being Fired affect ChatGPT?
by 8pla.net (AI News )
December 06, 2023, 09:54:25 pm
Independent AI sovereignties
by WriterOfMinds (AI News )
November 08, 2023, 04:51:21 am
LLaMA2 Meta's chatbot released
by 8pla.net (AI News )
October 18, 2023, 11:41:21 pm

Users Online

373 Guests, 0 Users

Most Online Today: 396. Most Online Ever: 2369 (November 21, 2020, 04:08:13 pm)

Articles