"AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2019, 11:40:13 pm »
See edit

Also Andey, both your quotes leave out context.
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AndyGoode

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2019, 01:08:07 am »
let em BEE!!!

Let 'em bee,
Let 'em bee,
Let 'em bee, yeah,
Let 'em bee.
Whisper words of wisdom,
Let 'em bee.

Sounds like another Beatles song suitable for driving to work.  :)

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2019, 05:26:34 am »
At least I can appreciate ANY song, for what it says/is/envisions, even if I don't like it at all. I said this in a thread before. I can not only understand what is is showing in a visual imagination, but also appreciate it. Your Jeff Hawkins writer says this 2 LOL, we learn the same world model - Catholics know apples fall from gravity off a table, as you do. Even cats.

Didn't you understand my long-named track I attached? It was very elegant, and mysterious, professionally done by the AI lol.

AIVA seemed to name theirs right - On The Edge. Clearly, it isn't just me, that believes that name fits what it is about. It's a thriller, post-apoptotic rock. You can SEE the thrill, the cries, the pain, the vision. We both see the same sensory images.

And besides, :) if you think this music is not that great :), then you're gonna have to compare it to mine I made by hand age 21 :P >>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV5rcpBUWwQ&t=146s
if that makes sense (can't even tell if mine is better or not, hmm)
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Hopefully Something

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2019, 05:44:58 am »
That's rather cool 1:55 to 3:30 is my fav piece.

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2019, 05:48:12 am »
The things in the sky are 2 giant gods, that suicide. They hit the floor. You can hear it.
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Hopefully Something

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2019, 06:11:23 am »
I like the contrast, it's like dirty techno, when the whole premise of techno (I think) is the defined precise clarity of ones and zeros. It's like Star Trek VS Star Wars, Star Wars is the visually interesting version of sci fi, your music is the sonically interesting version of techno.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 06:46:14 am by Hopefully Something »

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2019, 04:41:29 pm »
Quote
It's a thriller, post-apoptotic rock. You can SEE the thrill, the cries, the pain, the vision. We both see the same sensory images.

Huh. I don't think I see any of that. To me, "On the Edge" sounds upbeat and mellow, edging into triumphant toward the end.
I do rather like it; the AI's done a decent job. However it does not put a "thrilling" feeling in my mind.

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AndyGoode

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2019, 09:50:46 pm »
See edit

My apologies--I didn't know you were referring to your attached ZIP file songs. Those are *way* different than all the other AIVA compositions posted. Those zipped songs are actually impressive. It's hard for me to believe AIVA could do so well on those zipped file songs and so poorly on the others. What style did you select for those three? Maybe AIVA was optimized for that style, for some reason.

P.S.--Do you think we all have hijacked vadim.it's thread enough by now? I had a better idea for how to produce spiritual music, but maybe my other criticisms scared him off.

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2019, 10:18:32 pm »
I think we all hijack threads. It's part of dreaming, saying what A has entail or =. Further, our replies are on topic, about the perfect music/voice. And as we know there is no correct/perfect thing, only what replicating evolution desires is spoken about as being loved. like female voices, yum. And the smell of fries, unbearable to resist!! Let's talk about the perfect smells!! And perfect knowledge!!

I used the AIVA Fantasy preset, I didn't change anything I think. So go generate! Set it to 5 compositions to increase mutation throughput. Many will not be selected to get you your perfect composition faster! Speed it up! Set it to 5! There is a piano-roll but I didn't touch anything! It was fully generated.
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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2019, 11:02:38 pm »
I think vadim.it has the authority to tell us if we get too far off topic. But otherwise, lets keep on talking, we may eventually discover something cool related to the initial question.

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AndyGoode

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2019, 12:36:12 am »
OK, I'll throw out my suggestions for finding spiritual music. First, consider this excerpt from a book on AI:

(p. 85)
Music, Endorphins,
and the Idealist
Philosophers

FOR MOST OF US the boundary between "in-
side" and "outside" seems clearcut. Outside
is a world of objects, nature, other creatures;
inside is a private kingdom of thoughts,
dreams, desires, and memories, enclosed in
the hard casement of the skull. When someone confuses the two, mistaking
his own thoughts for the orders of KGB agents, we label him as schizophrenic.
If we look deep into the perverse complexity of the nervous system, how-
ever, we learn that internal and external realities aren't so easy to distin-
guish.
   In 1977 Avram Goldstein posed an odd question to a motley group of
Stanford medical and music students and employees at his Hormone Re-
search Laboratory. Did they ever, when moved by their favorite music,
experience thrills or tingles, a prickly feeling at the back of the neck or
along the spine? Some said, yes, music did affect them that way. Where-
upon Goldstein picked ten volunteers and put them in darkened, sound-
proof booths with headphones. Each time the wistful strains of Mahler or
the shrieking wah-wah guitar solos of Jimi Hendrix (or whatever the sub-
ject's favorite musical passage was) sent shivers down their spines, the
subjects indicated so with hand signals.
Between sessions Goldstein gave
them shots of either saline (a placebo) or the endorphin-blocker naloxone.
It was a double-blind study; neither the subjects nor the experimenters
knew who got what. After nineteen separate tests, the pharmacologist
reported that a third of the listeners experienced fewer and less intense
thrills after naloxone. The implication: The sublime tingles of musical
appreciation had something to do with endorphins.


Hooper, Judith, and Dick Teresi. 1986. The Three-Pound Universe. New York, New York: Macmillan Publishing Company.

So that's part of what you're looking for: endorphins. However, endorphins are usually associated with euphoria, which is an emotion that does not necessarily have a spiritual connection. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphins) However, another clue comes from another AI book...

(p. 152)
Neuroscientists from the University of California at San Diego have found what
they call the God module, a tiny locus of nerve cells in the frontal lobe that ap-
pears to be activated during religious experiences
. They discovered this neural
machinery while studying epileptic patients who have intense mystical experi-
ences during seizures. Apparently the intense neural storms during a seizure
stimulate the God module. Tracking surface electrical activity in the brain with
highly sensitive skin monitors, the scientists found a similar response when very
religious nonepileptic persons were shown words and symbols evoking their
spiritual beliefs.


Kurzweil, Ray. 1999. The Age of Spiritual Machines: When Computers Exceed Human Intelligence. New York, New York: Viking Penguin.

Now it's a little harder to debunk the notion of spiritual feelings. Such feelings may have only a physical basis--"only" a cluster of neurons--but their practical effect is sublime and the result can be some of the loftiest thinking and goals possible in human beings. That excerpt also tells us exactly what to look for, regarding response to music that produces spiritual feelings. Now the path to the automatic production of spiritual music gets clearer: have human subjects listen to music that generates endorphins and/or that stimulates the God module, probably with emphasis on the latter, and monitor and note which music produces the strongest reaction of those two effects. (The proper mixture of those two sensations would be an interesting question.)

One more suggestion: Don't use averages, but rather invariants. An average is a value that is roughly in the middle, and when seeking extremes (in this case, "best"), the average is the wrong value to seek. I'd recommend using a set of invariants, which would be the mathematical operation of set intersection applied to a set of values (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersection_(set_theory)). In this case, the set of values would be the attributes of the musical passages that create spiritual feelings. For example, if three songs created spiritual feelings and their attributes were....

song #1: S1 = {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, exotic scales, instruments with high sustain, same key}
song #2: S2 = {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, common scales, instruments with high sustain, multiple keys}
song #3: S3 =  {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, common scales, instruments with high sustain, same key}

Then...

S1 intersect S2 intersect S3 =  {vocal harmonies of 3 or more parts, instruments with high sustain}

...which would give you a set of two attributes that are present in *every* song that the human subjects considered spiritual. That would at the least be a set of major clues that would start to zero in on the attributes most likely to be important.

That's a simplified example, of course, but it does bring up another suggestion: instead of initially drowning in the complexities of melodies and chords and how to describe their shapes and overlapping regions, start the investigation with middle level concepts such as the attributes I used above, along with some of the attributes I mentioned in my earlier post of this thread, such as song structure, key modality, and instruments present. For example, I know I have a preference for major keys (as opposed to minor keys), and a preference for two-part verses (as opposed to one-part verses), and a preference for songs with a structure like ABABC where the C section is a lengthy climax, so the music generation software, if any is used, should have options at that level of abstraction, which AIVA did not (my earlier complaint).

For a concrete example, recently I've found the first song of the following song pair to be very spiritually uplifting and endophin-generating, too, at least for myself:

()
Eric Johnson - Venus Isle & The Battle We Have Won
Flatuleitor AndShit
Published on Oct 17, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pE5y352814

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Hopefully Something

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2019, 06:57:20 am »
I think a major purpose of music is emotional communication. It’s meant to impress ideas upon the audience that are difficult to convey with words. You could tell everyone “Listen, don’t go to the neighboring village tonight, there is a wicked snowstorm, and you’ll surely freeze.”  Or, you can layer your own experience/feelings under the facts in order to create a more substantial message:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_4lFqKM3GA

We respond well to music which does this effectively, that is, music which we have learned to understand. That’s why we all have individual tastes, it’s a big informal language, and everyone will have absorbed pieces of it at different strengths. Like a Venn diagram with variable depth. We value the parts that we understand best, because they are the most useful, so we gravitate to them, and create further positive associations with those styles. Same thing happens with people who get really into mathematics. All this probably boils down to an inbuilt appreciation for effective symbols. The endorphin spike could happen when we discover and understand a novel form of condensed experience, be it e + 1 = 0, a gesture, or a note. The different mediums have their own strengths, and music could be an especially good vehicle for spiritual experience.

In order to find the best music, you’d have to make it about something universal. A topic, emotion, experience, which everyone knows and accepts. Now that you’ve got something broadly effective, you must find a way to make it deeply effective, ie; not bland, (which it the well-known curse of things that cater to everyone). This might be the time to go into details, using invariants to pick good bits from the popular stuff. But then, you can’t just combine all the best pieces and expect heavenly music. It would be a jumbled medley.  So, I don’t know what the next step could be.

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2019, 08:10:48 am »
Quote
In order to find the best music, you’d have to make it about something universal

Make a song about food. Make sure to include chopping sounds, frying sizel, chewing, and licking.
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Korrelan

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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2019, 09:06:07 am »
The brain has natural rhythms which do coincide with recognised base/ bass beats, the beats were devised by humans after all. Your brain initially learns or is exposed to rhythms whilst you are still in the womb, your mother’s heart beat and sounds/ music penetrating the womb walls all help to shape your initial audio cortex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov3aeqjeih0

This is the best analogy I’ve found for why/ how music ‘moves’ us.  If you imagine each metronome is a cortical network, the duration and offset of the beat depicts a different state or process being performed by that brain network/ region.  The freely moving board represents the global thought pattern GTP and is able to both convey and influence global activity.  A recognised base beat will bring several key networks into synchronicity and flush the GTP with that rhythm.  This is why you feel the need to dance or tap your finger/ foot… the rhythmic influence is so strong it will affect your motor cortex.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_426RiwST8

 :)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:46:51 am by Korrelan »
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Re: "AlphaZero" for find/compute the best music/voices in the Universe
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2019, 09:52:28 am »
But...

Notice the metronomes begin moving at the same pace, moving the table with themselves? This is because the photon "motion" is swirling around like a spirit in the table, and is equalizing, moving left, right, left, right, going through all atoms. Like a gas, it is spreading out.

When the government's secret AGI robot starts dancing, you know you did it right I guess.
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