philosophical question/puzzle

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yotamarker

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philosophical question/puzzle
« on: January 06, 2020, 08:33:49 PM »
perhapse every moment we stop existing and a replica of us is made.

what is you were duplicated in to 2, like if you time traveled. both you are you but aren't connected, isn't that like
one has ended and another started ?

I mead this connection we think we have to our past selves, sharing a memory time line : do we really or are we a modified replica ?

how the can one even test such a theory ?

what if we take 2 robots and have them sync their memories.
robot1 at country A would have memories of robot 2 at country B and the opposite, are they one ?
doing stuff to bot1 effects bot2 on the memory level.

unlike the human there is no physical connection between the 2 bots as there is between past man and present man, and yet they are one !
what if we now create a second pair of robots starting with the 1st pairs memory.

are the 2 pairs connected ?there is a flimsy connection of the copy phase which is not much different than the connection of passing information.

being robots we can turn them off or on, killing and reviving them,

are the revived bots new bots or replicas?

so basically what im asking here is...

if I put my goal and methodes of operations into an AGI, can I become immortal, or do I actually die when I die ?

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2020, 09:08:51 PM »
Suppose you uploaded my thought patterns into an AGI.  If I could simultaneously have or feel the experiences of both me-as-human-body and me-as-AGI-in-computer, I would accept the AGI upload as myself. Presumably then, if my human body died, I would continue having the AGI upload's experiences. If I continued to experience my in-human-body existence and nothing more, I would not accept the upload as myself.  It would be a separate entity.  (Perhaps with its own experiences, or perhaps not.)

We won't know what happens until we try it, but my guess is that if you did simulate my brain in a computer, I would not be able to share its experiences. Such a simulation-of-me might be able to pursue my goals in the world and carry on my legacy, but it would not constitute true immortality. If my ability to experience this universe stops, then for my purposes, I am dead.

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infurl

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2020, 09:53:18 PM »
The science fiction novel "Kiln People" by David Brin explored this notion pretty thoroughly. It's well worth the read. In the novel, anyone who could afford the equipment could replicate themselves on a daily basis. The copies would live and work in parallel with the original and at the end of the day, upload their edited experiences back to the master. Furthermore, the copies could be specialized to optimally perform physical or intellectual tasks as required.

Back in the real world, aging is a lossy process. We both gain and lose abilities and memories. Therefore, copies wouldn't have to be one hundred percent accurate to preserve the illusion of immortality in the consciousness that was transferred to the copy. There is no loss of continuity just because you forget something or you lose one of your senses or abilities. It would probably feel like moving to a new neighbourhood, a combination of the both the familiar and the new.

Edit: Also, check out the series "Altered Carbon" on Netflix.

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2020, 10:35:45 PM »
Like a dictionary, every word/human/cell and nematode explains each other. Local context affects me and global does too because of small world network (few steps can get you to any node). Intelligence is extra context/data. A city is a brain/magnet that aligns randomly initialized (chaos) domains like a sun and less change (death) ends up happening near the end when approx. is optimal - levels off during Training, it wants to Compress mass/knowledge so it can Extract/expand free energy, just like stars, gasoline, stomachs, brains, fire, nuclear rods, etc. Too large atoms/planets/galaxies are impossible and are unstable and explode radiation. Brain waves propagate fast in these aligned domains. I change every moment before I even register something and am a growth, I am part of/affected by all of yous etc. The more big diverse data you have to compress the exponentially more you can shrink it compared to starting size, and the more big diverse data you have the more you can keep extracting realistic data endlessly without real world interaction. Per Darwin our low level base goal is survival/immortality for the majority, hence food/sex, hence homes/cars/science/walking/talking. Data tech like phones/computers etc and communicating observations of the world build on each other exponentially faster, it's all about the data tech. We could paperclip effect and get too big if Earth eats everything, our desire for food.... Compression also happens for employees, they are removed so to learn the facets of the business. Like neurons that die every day and atoms that flow through me every day, employees are replaced by pipes/mirrors, like long neural axons or blood passages, which are fractals. I feel resistant to death and can simulate the universe and increase my tool size or go to Mars and solve any problem that's not in front of me being in my simulator. So we feel big and love ourselves, luck, royalty, cash, power, respect, always right, faith, are more than a machine, conscious/aware (just extra context), etc, because it'd suck if it wasn't so. We will never harm ourselves on purpose per instinct, so most humans can't seem to pin point why we shouldn't die. The reason is rocks don't kick back or run. We are hard machines to destroy, we resist change. Through compression/decompression, we come to a equilibrium in physics. Evolution of data is data self-recursion, self-imitation! Look up GPT-2. It/the brain updates its sub goals/attention activations and knowledge hierarchy. I've went over it before, we change, clones can be made in sim, can diverge/gain similar memories and come back closer, can remake you afterward exactly same, employees are refilled, neurons are, list goes on doesn't it my friend. We are machines. You are just trying to do your thing, you aren't special but we do have a party on the way so hold tight we will get there.

Find more of my recent posts here to fully grasp this quick collage I spew: https://agi.topicbox.com/groups/agi/T409fc28ec41e6e3a/real-agi-brain
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 11:17:02 PM by LOCKSUIT »
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2020, 11:11:54 PM »
Quote
Back in the real world, aging is a lossy process. We both gain and lose abilities and memories. Therefore, copies wouldn't have to be one hundred percent accurate to preserve the illusion of immortality in the consciousness that was transferred to the copy. There is no loss of continuity just because you forget something or you lose one of your senses or abilities. It would probably feel like moving to a new neighbourhood, a combination of the both the familiar and the new.

Oh, I wouldn't be worried about perfect accuracy of the copied memories and abilities.  I'd be worried about whether the consciousness would actually transfer.  Would it be like me moving to a new neighborhood, or would it be more like me discovering that I had a twin in some other neighborhood?  Even if the memories and abilities were absolutely identical, it could just as easily be a brand new experience stream as a continuance of mine.

I've read Altered Carbon, and what I'm describing is "double-sleeving" or a "fork."  Forks have all the history of the original, but don't share its consciousness.  I don't know if this shows up in the TV series, but in the book, the main character and a copy he created decide that one of them needs to die.  They aren't happy about it.  I think they draw straws to see which of them it's going to be, because they recognize that they are separate beings; the death of either is not just a trivial case of amnesia.

My concern is that all uploads might just be forks.  And the only way to check without risking self-destruction would be to see whether you can have both your experiences and the copy's experiences at once.

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2020, 11:16:21 PM »
You don't have a consciousness, let me add that to my list above, please wait.You can't test it and it can't act in the real world. We can only think there'sconsciousnesses, yet we can't say which machines get a ghost!!!!!! Nooooooooooooo!!!!!!! Does a turtle? A rock? A water molecule? None. Or all.
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2020, 11:21:05 PM »
*sigh*

We've been over this before, Lock.  But if the word "consciousness" is troublesome, try focusing on "experiences."  Can I have a turtle's experiences?  No.  If I die but the turtle keeps going, I'm still dead.  Can I have your experiences?  No.  If I die and you keep going, I'm still dead.  Can I have the experiences of an uploaded scan of my brain that is running as a computer simulation?  Who knows!  We haven't uploaded anyone's brain yet.  But if we try it and find out that I can't have its experiences, then if I die and the sim of my brain keeps going, I'm still dead.

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2020, 11:23:12 PM »
It won't matter if you upload, clone, split, or merge. It just does its own thing like you did. You'll never wake up in it. Think of it as just iphones....we aren't alive. If machine x dies and turtle continues, its just machinery to me.
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2020, 11:33:04 PM »
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It won't matter if you upload, clone, split, or merge. It just does its own thing like you did. You'll never wake up in it.

Okay. There's the rub. I want to wake up in it.  If I don't wake up in it, it's not immortality, and I'm not interested.

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infurl

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2020, 11:43:50 PM »
I want to wake up in it.  If I don't wake up in it, it's not immortality, and I'm not interested.

You would wake up in your new copy when it was activated, but if your original or previous copy was reactivated, that instance of you would be disappointed. You would have to make sure it was destroyed without ever being revived. What's so scary about dying anyway?

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WriterOfMinds

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2020, 01:56:06 AM »
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You would wake up in your new copy when it was activated ...

I don't know that.  I've only ever woken up in my own brain. If all the information in my brain were copied somewhere else, why should I wake up over there? What guarantees that the information alone is enough?

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... but if your original or previous copy was reactivated, that instance of you would be disappointed.

If it's possible for my original to be disappointed and my upload to be content when they're considering the same situation, then I contend that they don't count as the same entity.  Given the same availability of information, different perspectives and subjectivity of experience mark different people.

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You would have to make sure it was destroyed without ever being revived.

Doing that would be murder. At least, I think so, which means my upload would also think so, and wouldn't do it.

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What's so scary about dying anyway?

For me? Nothing. But I'm still not wild about the idea of dying before my time because I tried some crazy uploading scheme and oops it's not really me.

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infurl

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2020, 02:19:03 AM »
But I'm still not wild about the idea of dying before my time because I tried some crazy uploading scheme and oops it's not really me.

I apologize in advance for this:

YOLO

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2020, 03:18:42 AM »
You can't "wake up" in another body, ever. You are a machine. Listen. Another body is just a clump of particles, there's no you anywhere. We only use code names for our chemio-reacto discussions and interactions. Hi. See you later. Drifting away now ohhh its pulling me!!!!!
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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2020, 03:19:45 AM »
I can see both sides but realistically, death comes to everyone and to everything in one form or another. That very final moment of death when one draws their last Earthly breath is relatively painless...your body simply stops, much like a machine with the electricity switched off. No more, no less. That person's journey is complete.

My mom always told me, "No one makes it out of this world alive." That's the way it's always been. O0

Happy Trails...
In the world of AI, it's the thought that counts!

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LOCKSUIT

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Re: philosophical question/puzzle
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2020, 03:24:28 AM »
It's like an clock saying it wants to wake up in another body. What do humans say about such clock? We smash it with hammer. If you can make it out alive from hammer, then your alive. 0O We appear invincible and sacred because we feel we should not be even touched! Nor harmed. And never killed. It's an illusion. We are 'trying' to resist change.

I welcome infurl back home. Sorry you have to see this odd thread about philosophical clocks, ghosts, and etc 0O
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