assassinated scientists

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ivan.moony

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2020, 09:21:47 PM »
Not at all.  If we didn't let people keep medicines secret and make money from them, who would make medicine? Almost no one.  If they couldn't make money from medicine, they'd have to work on something else, and there would be no new medicines.  So hiding medicine formulae makes both sides happy: the inventors because they get paid, and the rest of us because we get the medicine.

Do you think that people make medicines because of money? That's sick, what do you think of people? How can you even live among people imaging them that way in your mind? I ensure you, people make medicines because they want to help the others. Anything else is an insult.

It's not something everyone can do, and I don't think it's something we should force people to do.  If you don't allow people to keep discoveries secret and/or patent them, you are basically forcing them to give away their work for nothing.  And you don't like forcing people to do things ... right?

If they don't want to save a life, so be it, they can stay out of world wide web, as simple as that. I promise I won't look at their pity scripts, they can eat them, I hope they'll love the taste.

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I'm sure there are plenty other political arrangements that would solve this issue.

I'm not at all sure.  Communism was supposed to solve it, and it turned out to be an absolute horror.

People are smart, they'll think of something. I put my bets on democratic socialism, but I'd like to be even more surprised. I'll wait and see.

I, too, think that we all do bad things and should forgive others.  But willingness to forgive and abstain from pointless vengeance, is not at all the same thing as refusing to stop someone who is in the act of doing evil. If you don't act to stop a killer from killing, then functionally you care more about the killer than his victims. When the choice is forced upon us, I think we should care about victims more and killers less.  (I know, you want to care about both of them at once. But sometimes that is simply impossible.)  If you forcefully stop other people from doing wrong things, but also accept being forcefully stopped by others when you are in the act of doing wrong (and you would want someone to stop you, wouldn't you?), then you're not a hypocrite.

I think this is about being insane. Insane people deserve protection from their sick decisions, using force if needed (you are right, that is what I'd want for myself). But if they, after a thorough explanation, with a calm head really want to kill anyway, what to do then? Should we stop killing a plant? Should we stop killing an animal? Should we stop killing a human? And should we stop killing the planet? Just draw a distinction line and you are an a**, claiming one life is more important than another.

As I said, it is hard to keep the calm head on some issues. That is what makes us living beings. I'm not happy about this, but I'd do a mistake and draw a line at humans, maybe even at non-criminals. But I propose less renegading and more understanding than I see around myself. And as far as I'm concerned, "lower" life forms should also have some basic rights. If not a right to survive, then at least a right to be free. Otherwise, saying "thanks" on beloved Xmas doesn't really make sense. And saying "I'm sorry" on Xmass would be more convenient, but I guess that's too progressive these days.

Now, what rights would have an AGI machine? If it's below a plant then it has no power at all. If it is above the planet, I think it might be too much power. I'm afraid it's our choice to decide whom the machine has right to kill, and I hate the guts of this problem.
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2020, 09:42:25 PM »
There is nothing "sick" about expecting fair treatment in an exchange of goods and services.  If I save your life by giving you medicine, then it's fair for you to save my life by giving me money to pay for my food, shelter, etc.  I think most people do want to save others' lives.  They can't do it for nothing, because then they would end up homeless and destitute and be no use to anyone.

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infurl

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2020, 09:45:35 PM »
Love the avatar,  little mouse robot in a maze.  I made one like that too,  Korrellan has a good one as well,  it seems to be a good demo to make if your into a.i.  :)

Thanks. The graphic that I used is actually generated from the output of a robot simulator that I wrote in Common Lisp. It is running the robot control software that I wrote to drive a robot that I actually built. It was a rather large robot so I needed to make sure it would work properly and not destroy things. It worked, and the robot could cruise around my office for hours without getting itself stuck which was more than my Roomba was capable of doing.

https://asmith.id.au/state-machine.html

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ivan.moony

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2020, 09:51:21 PM »
There is nothing "sick" about expecting fair treatment in an exchange of goods and services.  If I save your life by giving you medicine, then it's fair for you to save my life by giving me money to pay for my food, shelter, etc.  I think most people do want to save others' lives.  They can't do it for nothing, because then they would end up homeless and destitute and be no use to anyone.

I'd give my life for yours, and I'd be insulted if you would force me to take something in return.
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2020, 09:56:42 PM »
Ivan, are you really saying that you spend all your available time helping others and magically survive without receiving a paycheck?
I like to think I'd take a bullet for you, too, and I wouldn't expect any reward for it, but that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.

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ivan.moony

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2020, 10:02:20 PM »
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Ivan, are you really saying that you spend all your available time helping others and magically survive without receiving a paycheck?

You may all force me into doing that, otherwise I'd be insane and you'd have to explain me a few things about the real value of others' life and happyness.

But I'm just a pity human, I do mistakes and I have to take a break here and there and accept a paycheck. I'm sorry for that.  :-[

My parents still support me, by the way.

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I like to think I'd take a bullet for you, too, and I wouldn't expect any reward for it, but that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here.

It may be about distinct standards we have for ourselves and the others. Now, if you ask me which standards I ask others to perform, what would it be? Say what? I can't ask anyone to do what I'm doing. People, lie, steal, kill. I'll try to watch it calmly. If I lose the temper, better shoot me in the foot, I'll try to calm down. I can see victims on the other side. I'll ask them to forgive it all. If they do, I should consider them my friends. If they don't, then I should forgive them and be their friend.

But this is only me, gibbering about what I'd like to be in my life. The real question is what would your creation, Aquitas do. You have the power to make it does the stuff you could only dream about.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 10:44:24 PM by ivan.moony »
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WriterOfMinds

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2020, 10:33:28 PM »
Ivan, buddy, you don't have to say "sorry" for taking a few breaks, or for getting enough money to support yourself.  Living inside your limits is not the same thing as being selfish.  The only way to be selfish is to make bad choices.  You didn't choose to be a human who needs breaks and food and shelter, and who can't possibly help others at all unless he gets those things.

If you can understand that the people who make medicine have those same limits, and therefore need to be given some money so that they, too, can survive, then you'll be doing well.

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The real question is what would your creation, Aquitas do. You have the power to make it does the stuff you could only dream about.

Even Acuitas has some maintenance needs. He can't do anything to help the world unless someone pays the electric bill.  But, that still makes him quite a bit more efficient than a human.  If I do a good job on him then you're right, he might be able to accomplish far more than I ever could.  I hope he does end up giving more than he takes  :)

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ivan.moony

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2020, 11:00:02 PM »
Ivan, buddy, you don't have to say "sorry" for taking a few breaks, or for getting enough money to support yourself.  Living inside your limits is not the same thing as being selfish.  The only way to be selfish is to make bad choices.  You didn't choose to be a human who needs breaks and food and shelter, and who can't possibly help others at all unless he gets those things.

If you can understand that the people who make medicine have those same limits, and therefore need to be given some money so that they, too, can survive, then you'll be doing well.

Yeah, well, I saw that pattern already. Fighter for a right. Nice, but be careful, someone might be insulted for not expecting much from them.
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ivan.moony

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2020, 11:05:13 PM »
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The real question is what would your creation, Aquitas do. You have the power to make it does the stuff you could only dream about.

Even Acuitas has some maintenance needs. He can't do anything to help the world unless someone pays the electric bill.  But, that still makes him quite a bit more efficient than a human.  If I do a good job on him then you're right, he might be able to accomplish far more than I ever could.  I hope he does end up giving more than he takes  :)

Wish you well :)
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goaty

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Re: assassinated scientists
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2020, 09:54:20 AM »
I respect both of you,  Ivan is being honourable, and writer of minds is being realistic.
The "life problem" is actually an impossible one I think,  theres NO correct option.  Were all going to hell...  >:D

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