Famous Quotes - Thought

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Freddy

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Famous Quotes - Thought
« on: July 12, 2006, 10:38:10 pm »
Spotted this on our quotes bit today:

B. F. Skinner
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do."
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 07:28:18 pm by Freddy »

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2006, 11:36:01 pm »
Hey, that's a good one! :)

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Jman

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2006, 11:46:15 am »
Hey, that's a good one! :)
a WOMAN WOULD be the first to agree with that :zdg_tongue

on a sirius note, though that quote really does spark some interresting thoughts & questions i.e. do men (& women) acually think in the first place?
rule of thumb: all things are stupid until i figure them out out.

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2006, 04:47:09 pm »
I am sure you do not know me well which is why you said that. I'm not a "woman". Just because I'm female does not make me "woman". There was actually scientific studies that had proven that your gender and your way of thinking are very different. And my gender is NOT the reason I would say the things I say.

In the post, I read the word "men" as meaning "human" in general, despite presupposed genders.


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Jman

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2006, 02:53:17 am »
There was actually scientific studies that had proven that your gender and your way of thinking are very different.
although conducted in a scientific way, such a study could never truly be considered scientific but must be considered phylosophical.

In truth it all depends on how you look at it.
rule of thumb: all things are stupid until i figure them out out.

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 04:32:23 am »
I totally and completely disagree.


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dan

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 11:53:22 am »
Fuzzie, he's probably right as seen in the light of attributional bias, the outcome is probably based on the premise all too often.  This is made manifest by universities skewing results for the contracts, false consensus, etc.  It's been known for some time concerning bias of results, makes me ponder if that's why the courts are swaying away from the scientific evidence more and more, and giving more credence to swaying the emotion of the jury.  I think it all originated with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, people started looking at things quite a bit differently.

Not that I disagree with you in the slightest in reference to your thinking the quote is a good one, but who knows maybe Skinner did mean males.
A computer would deserve to be called intelligent if it could deceive a human into believing that it was human. A.Turing

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Jman

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 01:07:28 pm »
well y'aint gotta getawl feeleesawfeecall awn uss :grin (if ur wondering think redneck hillbilly as you read that)
Dan,
Allthough you made a good point, i think u might have missed mine.
My comment: "In truth it all depends on how you look at it", was actually on:
I'm not a "woman". Just because I'm female does not make me "woman". There was actually scientific studies that had proven that your gender and your way of thinking are very different. And my gender is NOT the reason I would say the things I say.
allthough i think i 'at least' understand your point.
rule of thumb: all things are stupid until i figure them out out.

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 03:29:53 pm »
I disagree.

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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 10:23:17 pm »
Hey folks, ease off a bit, I posted it because I think he meant it as a wry jibe at men in general and it fitted with a lot of the things we lament about here. 

And I think Jman didn't mean to imply anything - it was just a follow up quip on the original 'joke' in the quote - the joke was at the expense of men.  He only really followed it up (you the unfortuante stooge FD) light-heartedly with what he said and in no defense of men or himself.

I really don't think Jman was out to offend.

Unfortunately it then went on to more serious ground and then the damage was done because you all got off on the wrong foot.

'Depends on how you look at it' - that's honest - everyone can't keep up with what has been discovered by science afterall...and you have to draw your own conclusions sometimes.  I don't think Jman or Dan would deliberately come up with something offensive - if they were like that then they probably wouldn't stick around to discuss the philosophy of the argument.

We all grew up or are growing up with people who don't fit in with some ideal image of womanhood or manhood - we already know that men don't always act like men and women don't always act like women, if at all - so most people don't need that scientific approval.  If anyone can't deal with that in life then they are in for a lot of surprises.

But I know none of you are that blinkered anyway, so please guys and girls don't make a mountain out of a mole hill - we all get our say here and try not to judge each other and we do that well.

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Duskrider

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2006, 10:28:44 pm »

Well said,  Freddy.
I wrote something this morning but had to leave before posting. 
Just got back and see you pretty much said what I was going to.
And said it well. 
In fact better than I would have.
Sometimes those involved see mountains and it takes an observer to put it in perspective.

To drop another quote:  "This too shall pass"
 :cool

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Freddy

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2006, 11:22:42 pm »
Amen  8)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 02:30:13 pm by Freddy »

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Maviarab

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2006, 01:16:17 am »
Ok I didnt want to step in here but I feel I'm going to have to.

We all have opinions...on everything...from species to peas.

But lets try to keep it simple please.

Ok...these are my current views on the thread.

1. The original concept of this thread...the word in question casuing so much debate "men" well...we are after
all called "MANKIND" are we not? It dates back to a long time ago when women had no rights and were there for decoration, to make babies and keep the house nice and provide us "men" with a meal at the end of the day. very wrong I agree but thats the way its always been and is only now still starting to change.

2. "a WOMAN WOULD be the first to agree with that"...i saw the funny side of what was written but unfortunatly Fd took a little offence. Perfectly understandable but then if my ex wife took the same offence everytime she got lost in the car and i said to her well your woman dont worry about we would have got divorced far sooner than we eventually did lol. The comment as I saw it was a light hearted swing at female thinking in general, and we all do it...male and female...at both sexes, just look at how many women say men think with their (edited) and not their brain, or that our brians in our pants. Certain things have stuck over the years with regard to certain views of the general fairer sex. I doubt this is something that will ever change so we just have to get on with it. Women complain at them being used as sex objects in films and advertising...do you ever see an ugly guy in an advert...or leading a film...course you dont...women would then not watch/buy it would they? But do we complain about it? no we dont, cos men think differently. Its a thing unfortunatly we have grown up with and its been installed into us from a young tender age, and lets hope that the people campaigning against this sort of thing can get some headway.

3. The scientific view is interesting in both aspects. Women will always think like women and vice versa with men. Fact of life, men really are from mars and women really are from venus (read the book very good lol). In terms of the scientific I also have to agree with FD in the fact that I too have read and seen docu's on this thing and its one general way of thinking and not their sex that determines what they are and what they think. Though this is also contractided at times by basic genetics.

4. So to sum up, I believe in all honesty the original comment was intended as humans in general, though worded in the usual old fashioned way. A light hearted coment was made which could be viewed as funny OR belittling to the female gender.

Hopefully this now settles the problem and we can get back to the original friendly forum we all know and love. Though "forum" has to be the operative word here, we are allowed our opinions and we are allowed to an extent to express our views etc, we just have to have a little more thought how some people may react to others comments, and likewise accordingly, we also need to take a lot of what is written at face value.

So we can either now continue with the theme of the thread or close it? I personally opt for continuing as the original thread idea was great.

So please...lets stay on topic

:zzz_judge1

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2006, 01:50:47 am »
I need to make a few statements really quick an then we'll get back to the original topic Freddy posted...

I totally disagree with the quoting of my replies and the idea that scientific evidence of my state of being could be somehow inaccurate.

I agree that we shouldn't make mountains out of molehills. This thread when on (quoting me even more after that) when it should not have.

As moderator and as a man (despite my being physically female), I'll do two things:

1. Humbally apologize for my first response to this post, which I realize a man may think I thought men are unintelligent. I am of the personal opinion that men and women alike can think, as they are both sentient beings. I even think animals can think. So technically, I should not have said what I said in the way I said it.

2. Due to the woman references, I think it's best we not discuss THAT topic any longer here, as I do not want women or even FTM (Female to Male) transgendered people or those who are both, or like me, brain one, body another to feel unwelcome. This forum is for EVERYONE. Including JMan, Dan, and everyone else here. Everyone is welcome and should feel welcome.

So since we are in disagreement over some things here, let's do what I remember we used to do in my GEnie online services days: Agree to disagree and say no more on the disagreement we had here. :)

Now, as for Freddy's original quote, if I may rephrase my response:

(Quoting Freddy)


B. F. Skinner
"The real problem is not whether machines think but whether men do."

(End quote)

This is interesting because humans program the machines to begin with. In other debates here, I have noted that it might even be possible that a machine may overrule it's own programming. Thus, I think, the programmer's ability to program an AI to learn from it's environment and interaction with others is the only thing required to make the AI "live" as such. After that, just as a parent raises a child, the child grows, learns and after the learning (ie. programming) process, it's on it's own. Whether the child continues to follow the rules of their upbringing or not is then the child's sole decision upon adulthood. And not every adult follows their upbringing so what the parents "thought" or whether the parents can "think" really can become irrelevant.

For example, parents that severely (and sadly) abuse their children. There are those abused kids that grow to adulthood, marry and have kids. I've heard from many of them that they would NEVER treat their child the way their parents treated them. Some of the things the parents did to them was obvious that the parents weren't "thinking", as such.

So, the programmer's ability to "think" would be irrelevant I beleive. But I do believe all humans and animals can and do think. All sentient life with some type of brain or processing center has the ability to think. But maybe the question is HOW they think?

For example; a person with mental retardation who can not communicate or interact well (if at all) with those around them. But sit them in front of a piano and they can play such beautiful music! Some have other talents as well. I have read where the human brain of some mentally retarded people would develop so that what is missing in one area of the brain may become enhanced in another area of the brain.

Thought, ability to think, to reason of the creator. IS that a factor for a creation to become what it is?

Now we are back on topic.... Let's see what we can come up with. :)

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FuzzieDice

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Re: Famous Quotes
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2006, 01:55:30 am »
Marius, I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. But you're the admin and I agree. Though I still feel I was half at fault here as well and still needed to apologize. :)

As to the topic... I agree let's continue. :)


 


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