[ivan.moony]

Hi Martin

Some guys here developed their own chatbots, some of which become famous by contests. Some chatbots (including Millie in a chat room here) can carry on impressive quality conversations.

I'll not be that much of help, I think, but it is nice to see someone interested in AI field. Good luck with your project.

[Art]

Hi Martin!

Your post didn't lead me to believe that you were actually born in 1782 so I presume it's only the name thing.

At any rate, Welcome aboard! Feel free to explore, check some of the previous postings that might serve to help bring you up to date on a particular topic of discussion.

As with so many forums, once in a while, OK...quite often, we go off on a tangent to the initial post. Seems that human thought isn't just linear, it makes connections which in turn make other ones and so on.... Pretty soon, we've forgotten what the original topic was about.

It's all good as are our participants. Don't hesitate to throw an idea, post something of interest or whatever floats your boat.

Be sure to read the TOS at the bottom right for further enlightenment (if I may call it that...right...I just did.).

Enjoy your time with us!

[DemonRaven]

Who are you, what do you do & what do you want to do ?

I think i missed answering this one. I am a amature webmaster and chatbotmaster who is presently frustrating myself trying to learn new programming. What I want to do is eventually play with some of the AI programs out there and also improve my skills as a webmaster. I am finding myself hampered by my minds tendency to wander and get easily distracted.

[madmax]

Hello!
I am not at all in this,but i am very curious,and also my english is very bad.I have some general opinion about AI and i just want to share it.

The main problem about AI,in my opinion,is that real independent AI is impossible,not only now but never,sorry for my negative attitude.Robots or some sort of complex instructional behavior are obviously possible as we all know, but AI that could make decision in unpredictable occasion is not possible.And in my opinion intelligence is all about making decision in unpredictable circumstances.

Why i think is not possible.Because of two major unknown things:how is life began and how brain function(even in this field has some knowledge);there is one big problem that combine previous two:intelligence was evolved inside of evolution of life itself so intelligence is part of the life or living being,and beside of intelligence there is more elements that make one being live(sense,emotion,instincts,sensors ...),all this parts are interacting with each other and permeate through each other.

I will stop myself here,to see what is someone else opinion.I have to add much more in my explanation.But i could conclude this that in my opinion AI is delusion, or delusional thought a bit similar as thought of god.

[ivan.moony]

Hi Madmax

Circumstances are not just unpredictable, there is a whole range between completely predictable and completely unpredictable. And sometimes it is not safe to throw a dice. So the AI should also learn when it is safe to risk by doing something that has unpredictable consequences. I think that that is the price of knowledge: playing around with uncertain things and learning what happened as a consequence. That way the circle of knowledge grows and things become predictable.

I believe that human behavior is just a logic system, analogous to math system, where we can predict a lot of things. The system is more or less personalized by each person (depends on some important lifetime decisions), but it should be logical and constant with each person herself. Less important things would be more or less random, but very important things like decisions on a matter of life and death should be constant in adulthood.

I have plans for an AI that mimics and combines observed human behavior (unless it does not pass the ethic filter). I don't care how the human brain works exactly, internally. I just want to copy the outer behavior and to pick up the most appropriate decisions seen in similar situations.

[Art]

Welcome Madmax!

You should read the section here in the following link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-diamandis/ai--technology-convergenc_b_9233220.html?utm_hp_ref=technology&ir=Technology

The article highlights Mr. Stephen Gold, CMO and VP for IBM's Watson, the computer that played Jeopardy and beat two of the best players in the world.

How life began and how the brain functions have actually very little to do with how an AI can or does operate. It's strength is in the available or accessible knowledge base and the programming.

Choices are what makes us human and with proper programming and access to information, a computer / android will be able to make correct or at least best choices in the very near future. A lot of these programmable devices already do.

Nothing is impossible in the world of computer applications...just wait.

[madmax]

Thanks for welcome.

I am not saying that programming or computer are useless, that would be stupid of me,and i agree that computational capabilities of computers are much greater than humans, but also computation is not intelligence even it is part of it.Any machine is just a tool, and intelligence is not just a tool, even it may seem.Logic systems, math systems, algorithms all of this are just a tool through which intelligence make decisions and predictions about circumstances in reality and because intelligence as part of living being is also part of that reality, we make systems through which we try to explain intelligence itself.But, we are still just trying.

What is the purpose of intelligence, of course, to maintain the life.But the evolution of life is a long process.Complex life forms have complex systems that are part of it.Intelligence is one of that complex systems and is not independent of other.We could expand our intelligence through knowledge and by using tools as computers, but we would never be able to make AI, because when we would expand our intelligence to the point when we would know how intelligence works we would not need one as AI.


Beside this, I agree that programming is very useful for making some complex computational systems that would help us to expand our knowledge or to get easier access to it, and to produce some useful tools too. 

[Freddy]

That's why we usually tag the 'artificial' on the beginning. I don't think many people say that AI equates to human or any other intelligence - merely that intelligence per se is often the inspiration behind a lot of people's work - precisely because, as you say, it is so useful.

[madmax]

I agree with your point of view,if we take intelligence as optionally arrangement of data and with that mysteriously inspirational untouchable opportunities.Something will come out from this too.But if we are looking for life purpose instead amusement, because i think life is enough amusing,we must follow the roots meaning of intelligence as something that is part of living being.


My intention is not to arguing,i just want to clarify for my self what is really AI,because many people think that AI would be one day able to run the world or something like that.For me that is delusion.Even it is possible to produce some system that will run other systems or produce systems,in some way that are computer viruses,and i don't think that this viruses are intelligent except those who made them are.


What is my point.Every technology could be misused,especially if at first are not clarifying intentions or real purpose or even real meaning,from where that meaning came and what are implication of that meaning.

I just trying to see where this going.

PS:sorry if i sound general or confusing, and because this of topic

[Art]

Madmax,

If you're able, try to find time to read through this article and notice the section that mentions his computer program: "It has taught itself to master the game by using general-purpose machine learning techniques."

Human...No. Intelligence...Yes, with respect to the board game of 'Go'.

So computers / androids can indeed 'Learn'. Does that make them intelligent? Maybe not in the human sense but prehaps that where we need to define new terms. Robot / Android intelligence will likely differ when compared to human intelligence. The End result is often what matters most. It learned to play by watching and playing humans and now a human can't beat it! Can it do your taxes or help your child with their homework. Not at this moment, nor was it designed to but in the near future, I believe that these computer driven 'mechs' (androids, humanoids, etc.) will be capable of almost anything. Although I am a Futurist, I am also enough of a realist to realize that these entities will probably not be ready in my lifetime since I have less than 20 years left (give or take). But possible, certainly.

Never say never and never say that something is impossible because someone out there will prove you wrong!


http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/16/demis-hassabis-artificial-intelligence-deepmind-alphago

[Freddy]

I just trying to see where this going.

PS:sorry if i sound general or confusing, and because this of topic

Perfectly fine, this is how and why we began this forum. We've all got valid concerns and we talk about them - you are not confusing things

[madmax]

Nice article,like summary about what is really going on.And how Demis Hassabis said, it is all about gaming right now.And i think even is this technology has wrong name,because of what is intelligence about, is very promising.Only thing that is to be fear about, is not machines take over, but the thing that this technology could be used by some force against people for easier government or any other way of exploitation or repression, and some accidents that are always possible especially with new technologies.


Actually i think that changing the name will help this technology to develop, in the way that will focus on real threat,not to that delusional one as "terminators armagedon".


It is never,i am still sure in this, possible for humans to make AI, that will be able to live its own life on its own way, what is intelligence really about as i think.


Simple thought experiment: if there can be AI then we are not intelligent enough, so then creating of our intelligence is delusion and following this there cant be AI.This look like loop logic, but AI like notion of god is cause of loop that occur in our brain because of mechanism that selflessness and our reasoning works.


But putting a side problem about name, technology that distinguish patterns in side of some forms or functions, with maybe synthesis of many scientific fields, for better and faster insight in many problems is promising good,apart from complex economical and political occasion today.

[Art]

You have some good points. What ever is invented or developed, that might have potential or possible applications in or for other exploits will certainly be grabbed by the military / government as if they had discovered it.

For what you look ahead and have determined a self supporting AI to be impossible, will most likely come to pass in the future, perhaps not in your time but it will happen.

Think back to the first use of electricity and the first incandescent light bulb! Wow! Magic! Impossible to have a glowing light inside a glass bulb and yet it happened.

How about a person's voice over a copper wire? Impossible! Not at all!

Transferring a camera's images over wireless space! More magic! More impossible tasks!

Printing things in plastic!

Being able to talk to a non-human device and it understands you, then fetches answers or directions for you!

Wireless phones, cellular phones, computer chess programs and go champion computer programs! Will the impossible never end? No! It's not meant to!

It was only impossible before it was invented! This is true with all of history for the most part! It will likely hold true after we're gone. We may never know for sure and it really doesn't matter when all is said and done...except that it happened! They'll say, "You know, 50 years ago this ______ would have been impossible!" And they would have been correct!

One can't close the mind to all the 'what-if's' that could still be invented. Ask your great grandfather or great grandmother if that seems impossible. You already know what their answer will be. 

[madmax]

We are on some kind of top of the evolution,with intelligence involved.And this intelligence branch of evolution is for reason to maintain life.Our capability to think, make decision, is driven by force of life.We are through self-awareness making notion as intelligence to get better mental picture of our self and whole reality.So everything we think of is driven by life force and if we delusion our self we go against the life it self.If our intelligence is life purpose mechanism, that mean that is close to life function it self it cant be divided from life in the meaning of self existence.


We could manipulate with our knowledge and make automatic ,self existence in some point,systems.But to build self driven system on level of our intelligence or some hypothetical super intelligence is not possible simple because we don't have that knowledge,and in the hypothetical point in time when we get enough knowledge we will not need AI,one reason, because we will see what is really life about and why it is so great,and in other reason or possibility we will transform us,unlikely,in some other way of existence.


All machines, all staff that we make or were made are part of us,our tools our shelters.And we like to personification them to easier and better understand them to get relate with them.Complex instrument, systems are not intelligent those who made them are, they are just complex or hard to comprehend.


In the surface life look simple eating, shiting, reproducing,some just reproducing without previous two like viruses even some think that they are not actually live.But how then we get to the knowledge of atoms, electrons,universe.It seems that life is actually pretty complex as universe is too.Just to observe pathways in our brain we must have vast computational power, just to observe.We know so little, and saying we are able to create AI is the same as saying we are able to travel with light speed.For me both of this are ridiculous.


So AI is wrong term, i suggest something as automatic evaluating system , that sounds more correct for me.

[Art]

The whole purpose of humans building Robots was to allow these mechanical units to perform tasks that would first have been unsafe and second, the eliminate the repeated drudgery of monotonous tasks of putting the same bolt into the same hole hour after hour, day after day....
Of course, the scientists and inventors and hobbyists of the would could simply not stop there. Assembly line robots, bolt fitters and painters and welders weren't enough. They needed to see if it were possible to create a human-like being. Maybe it was due to a God complex or something. Who knows.

Mankind is far past thinking only of survival...a lot think about getting a raise, married, a promotion, big-screen TV, new car, things! Stuff! Hardly intelligence or life's purpose. We are about existence and working and paying bills, etc.
Sure, no one want's to (OK most don't want to) die. Humans live to live, love and enjoy life, have kids / grandkids, pursue hobbys and sports events or fishing or whatever appeals to them. Even though we know there are laboratories housing some of the most dangerous biohazards in the world and some not that far away from where we live. We also don't stop to think about the advances in the AI labs and robotics divisions of some very powerful companies around the world.

For some reason you keep sticking to your guns about this even after my repeated examples. You said:
"...to build self driven system on level of our intelligence or some hypothetical super intelligence is not possible..."

They (the android / humanoid / robot scientists, developers, hobbyists) are not thinking and working to build a system on our level...they are way beyond that! NASA has a robot for space voyages, DARPA has several powerful types and GOOGLE has acquired a lot of these companies! There are many others in the works around the world.

Face it...if there are already computers that far surpass mans ability in gaming (checkers, chess, go, Jeopardy) to name a few, just how long do you think it will be before the collective machine intelligence leaves mankind in the dust!

They could, with some proper rule-sets, help mankind live and enjoy a better world or they could simply examine history along with man's inhumanity to man and choose logically to not help us at all and watch our demise.

Don't say it is impossible for machine intelligence to surpass man's because it's almost there right now.

Madmax, I am not trying to argue with you. I find your take refreshing and enjoy the discussion. It's nice that you are here with us.