Anybody built any Androids yet ?

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Freddy

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2016, 10:21:14 pm »
Knowledge and research in Insects shows that they have very Simple Brains.

* Senses to Body Node.
* Mushroom Node - Short/Longterm Memory (1000-100000 neurons)
* Central Body Motors Coordination Node
* Optic Nodes
* Antennal Lobes
* Cardio Node
* Ganglions - local Motors Controls
=> Total 100K-1M Neurons (1/1B of Human Brain)

Actions and Brain Complexity seem to limit the Insect Behavior to simple Practiced Learning Actions.

It seems that the Insect Brain is Simpler than our Reptil Lower Brain - which has no Consciousness - purely Reactions / Learned.

http://cronodon.com/BioTech/insect_nervous_systems.html

A lot of people see self awareness as an emergent thing - so I guess another question is how minimally complex does an organism need to be to achieve self awareness.

Did you know bees exaggerate when they are on Cocaine ?

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jlsilicon - Robotics AI

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2016, 10:25:54 pm »
"
    No "self-aware" ever real. Only a machine doing actions.

    Each and every ‘thought frame’ or decision you make is made up of past learning/ experience, the current sensory input…
    ... as well as the predicted sensory/ events you have learned from experience.
"

Actually, this brings up an Interesting subject.
I think Consciousness arises above Reactions from Input or Chemistry.
  Ie: Think before you leap ...

Thinking and Consciousness is separating YourSelf from Reactions.
One way of Thiinking about it - is to Imagine it as defiing a set of Rules that You follow to make Decisions.
Then, your Decisions are clearly Decided and hopefully Conscious.

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Korrelan

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2016, 10:57:48 pm »
@Freddy

Quote
Did you know bees exaggerate when they are on Cocaine ?

Dude… no listen dude… shhhh… listen… snort… you should have seen the size of that frikken flower… snort… it was frikken HUGE dude… no seriously… it was the biggest frikken flower I’ve ever seen… bigger than yo mama's a**… bzzzzzz.. haha… sometimes I amuse myself...  ;D

I think the level of self-awareness goes hand-in-hand with brain complexity... as to a definitive scale... I have know idea.  But I've made a note of the question... for pondering... :)

Surely the level of self-awareness must be in-line with the animals ability to understand it's... it's... hmmmm... it will come to me :)

@jlsilicon

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Thinking and Consciousness is separating YourSelf from Reactions.

This is bordering on the topic of ‘free will’

The first time we experience a situation, we can’t exercise free will. 

We don’t actually live in the moment; if we did we would be constantly lagging behind reality.  Our brain forms predictions using our internal virtual model of the world as we think it works.

If we are forming predictions they must be based on previous knowledge and experience.  You must have the experience/ patterns in place to recognize the current experience in the first place.

So if a situation arises that we have no previous experience of we can’t form a prediction/ choice of predictions based on free will… we have no choices to choose from.

If you are in a bank and someone shouts… FREEZE… you do.  The only way to override this is through training and experiencing all the possible combinations likely in life.  Hence army and police training!  Also causes rabbits and deer to stop in your headlights etc… no previous experience to form a prediction/ reaction too.

We are still conscious of these events… even though we have no previous experiences/ knowledge to base our decisions on…
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jlsilicon - Robotics AI

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2016, 11:22:58 pm »
So Ants or Grasshoppers will become Self Conscious - via Emergent Behavior ...?

I don't think Consciousness simply arises from Brain Size or Complexity.

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kei10

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2016, 11:42:17 pm »
As far as I am aware, living creatures we see today learns through experience. But the problem is; how fast do they learn?

To learn something, they have to have the ability to observe consistency, a pattern. For us humans, we have the highest learning rate.

Brain size and complexity scales how much we can store our memory, how much we can learn, how much functions possible there, how fast we can learn, how long our memory stays intact, and how the memories work together.

A parrot can learn to mimic speeches, they can also be teach to do entertainment performances. But that's the limit of what parrot can do. Sure they can be teach a little more that related to linguistic, but they won't able to go far because there just isn't enough brain capacity for them, nor enough brain sections for more functions to be override in. Possible due to their smaller size in brain, or lesser brain complexity.

Consciousness is a voluntary self aware, the ability of free will, that makes us experience and remember the things have done. You do not learn nor able to do anything when you are lying there unconscious.

Self consciousness can be because of survival. The base mechanism of all life. Thus to achieve self consciousness, you need AI to understand the basic of survival, the ability to survive, and what it is meant to survive.

Greetings, jsilicon, I'm a philosopher. ;)
Greetings, signature.

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Korrelan

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2016, 11:53:11 pm »
Quote
So Ants or Grasshoppers will become Self Conscious - via Emergent Behavior ...?

I believe in consciousness being an emergent property of a complex system. I think the level of consciousness is relative to the animal’s mental capacity. I’m open to being swayed by logic though… the more insight we can gather the better.

If you read my project pages… you will see some of my progress toward a ‘conscious’ machine.

http://aidreams.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=10804.0#.WESlyNSLRhE

Quote
I don't think Consciousness simply arises from Brain Size or Complexity.

Where do you think consciousness arises from?

 :)
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jlsilicon - Robotics AI

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2016, 11:55:06 pm »
I am not arguing otherwise.
I think organsims thinking is based off of the brain's capabilities.
The elephant brain has a lot larger than human Brain - but not as many Cortex folds as the Human's.

Can Insects be Conscious ?
As I listed earlier, Insects are missing many Layers of Brain that Animals have.
Insects seem to be Reaction Machines that learn minimal.
The brain is probably more for practicing Body movements.

I think that the Human Brain is defined to suport Consciousness.
But Consciousness is Emergent -in that it needs to be Learned - else it is deadbeat.
I think this is the 'Full-Circle' lesson that we present in Robot Stories enough.
- Which is also also probably at the same time the 'Understanding Self' principal.

> Where do you think consciousness arises from?

Is a Dictionary Conscious ?
- Is the Internet ??

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Freddy

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2016, 11:57:50 pm »
Quote
Self consciousness can be because of survival. The base mechanism of all life. Thus to achieve self consciousness, you need AI to understand the basic of survival, the ability to survive, and what it is meant to survive.

Funny, I was thinking this earlier. I was going to suggest that a mouse is self aware as it tries to escape a cat. If it had no self awareness why would it do that ?

So Ants or Grasshoppers will become Self Conscious - via Emergent Behavior ...?

I don't think Consciousness simply arises from Brain Size or Complexity.

I don't know, just following a train of thought and things other people have postulated, but I don't see anything that makes me decide that insects are not self aware.

Dude… no listen dude… shhhh… listen… snort… you should have seen the size of that frikken flower… snort… it was frikken HUGE dude… no seriously… it was the biggest frikken flower I’ve ever seen… bigger than yo mama's a**… bzzzzzz.. haha… sometimes I amuse myself...  ;D

That really made me laugh.  ;D

Edit: there were a few posts while I wrote this, so I haven't commented on some things I may later.

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Freddy

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2016, 12:00:01 am »
I think that the Human Brain is defined to suport Consciousness.
But Consciousness is Emergent -in that it needs to be Learned - else it is deadbeat.

This notion seems to be shown in the elephant video - at first the elephant did not show self awareness, but later learnt it was looking at itself. I feel I'm seriously over simplifying that though.

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Korrelan

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2016, 12:17:22 am »

It seems like we are all working/ thinking along similar lines.

I suppose consciousness is learned in a way… I think it definitely changes as we grow older and wiser (lol)… so it must be learned… influenced/ shaped by experience.

When I think… I think in English… I can obviously imagine objects/ images/ experiences/ etc but I have always wondered… how humans ‘think’ who have no experience of language. Do they ‘think’ in images… or slices of experience… what construct do they use.

To me… when I imagine a timeline… the past is to the left and the future to the right.  Is this because of the way we write? Do the Chinese have an inverse imagined timeline because they write right to left? I need to look this up.

 :)
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jlsilicon - Robotics AI

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2016, 12:39:58 am »
Korrelan, I looked over your Thread of your Neural Net project.
Seems like a lot of Excellent results from it.

Does it present Consciousness ?

> catch 22… the AGI needs a body and senses to experience our world,
> but if I spend to much time developing the bot then I’m not working on the AGI cortex, which is the main project.

- agreed - one distracts from the other in project time.

I can only be glad to have worked on the different robot parts many times in past years.
(professional robotics engineer: vision analysis, embedded programming, etc)

-

Earlier notes:

Keep in mind the 'Mind' developes through learning / maturity phases through life:

- 1 months - senses awareness
- 2m - coordination / reactions
- 6m - imitation
- 9m - likes / dislikes
- 1 year - words
- 1.5y - questions / answering
- 2y - object familiarity
- 5y - pretending
...
10y - world awareness
12y - self to world importance
14y - abstract thinking
etc...

Also, interests follow maturity phases.
Age for structure (blocks) , drawing (perspectives), news, etc - Interests.

I am not saying simply, that Conscious is learned, more like practiced using the capabilities. 
Do you learn to see ? - I think this comes from learning what you have to use.
Same with Language, much is builtin.  Who can speak Dolphin ?
- but dolphins simply can speak with each other !
Because we evolved different brains.

-

The elephant could think it sees another elephant, or maybe testing cause and effect. 
Birds react to mirrors - probably more for another bird / social reaction.

-

The Mouse does not need to be Self-Aware to flee a threat. 
Just emotions and instinct. 
It just needs to be aware of the Cat !

-

Q:  We can not see Infrared or Ultraviolet Light
... Are we (Not) SelfAware because we are Blind to these parts of the world ... ?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 02:21:21 am by jlsilicon - Robotics AI »

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Freddy

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2016, 01:01:06 am »
Quote
It just needs to be aware of the Cat !

Good one !

This conversation makes me wish I could remember the first time I saw myself in a mirror.

I go with the idea that self-awareness evolves as we grow older. We're always testing things as we go along in life. A prod here a poke there. Curiosity must be some part of self awareness.

@Korrelan, I tend to think and structure things left to right too - left is past, right is future here too.

People lacking some sense - yes, that is difficult to understand. Some time ago I learnt about Chromesthesia - people who see music in colours. There was this 'experience' for the Oculus Rift that showed you what this was like. The woman (who had this) showed that she saw flashes of light according to the musical note - and they had replicated what she saw. Can't find it on YouTube though.

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Korrelan

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2016, 01:14:19 am »
Will reply tomorrow... 1 am here.. cheers.

 :)
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LOCKSUIT

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2016, 01:42:48 am »
"Funny, I was thinking this earlier. I was going to suggest that a mouse is self aware as it tries to escape a cat. If it had no self awareness why would it do that ?"

-------- Learnt actions that either got reward sense (even stopping bad reward senses) OR learnt actions that are linked to senses that did get reward. Done on cue.

"Thinking and Consciousness is separating YourSelf from Reactions.
One way of Thiinking about it - is to Imagine it as defiing a set of Rules that You follow to make Decisions.
Then, your Decisions are clearly Decided and hopefully Conscious."

--------- No con. we robots, talking is actions done, thinking is senses being remembered when matched/fire and "directs" actions and saves/links senses too yep. Set of decision rules is that artificially linked reward as explained above, and are linked senses in a bar played out/matched easily now. Actions done, er no con. we robots. We do create a sensin ghost though.

A ‘thought’ is not just sensory input and actions… it’s a complex dance between the nuances of past/ present and predicted experience… even your posture/ the room temperature as you write… effect WHAT you will write… and how you will express yourself."

---------- Explained thoughts above, understanding is actions done you just say n do it all. No see = can't do right actions (not selected). Only senses and actions and their metadata exist in brain. You move, or you mentally see mom in memory,  nothing else.

"Each and every ‘thought frame’ or decision you make is made up of past learning/ experience, the current sensory input… as well as the predicted sensory/ events you have learned from experience.  When you have a ‘thought’… do you ‘think’ in your native language?  How do you feel at this exact moment in time? You are reading this… already making judgements and decisions about how you are going to reply… do you know what you are thinking? Do you understand WHY you are going to write… what you will eventually write? This is part of being self-aware.

---------- Explained above, sense selection and therefore linked actions selected is by input, done if + rewarded (experience), 1 set in history bar has all motors actions tried & 5 senses saved if all 5 pass attention system, all your memory does affect the search target by strong neuron's energy that increases etc etc. Predictive is just explained - input search is affected. Selection has linked senses. Only by cue you will act. Explained above, i think in native language (images linked to English words/sounds n write/read actions) which ends up resulting in actions by remembering selected senses and also as said saves n links too while at it. I feel nothing while reading this. I want goods. Immortality of goods. I am writing to you. My judments/decisions as I read your text are on cue I say/write actions, linked senses n actions to selected senses exist, and mem's draw on the input's search. I don't know what I am thinking, only what I see on my screen and what the screen selects in my head while possibly sensing a pop up memory that may fire on its own. Understand WHY going to write what'll write - yes, if asked or happens to be selected (I have all ways), then your question plus special word ex. Why You Say > AI IS " "? Matches and I do actions on cue. Me understanding this is because I have noted down how it all works and images linked etc save match cue blahblah and you go and ask me basically "How" > "All above^"? and I do actions. How I understand and did actions for THAT is cus I'm pro. How I understood to say that is because a image n linked words standing for "infinite" is linked to it and so I will keep doing actions under that n undertstand that n underst that n understands that. Again shall we? I writing soooooo fast gotta sleep, my notes are more correct this is all from memory.

" Ie: Think before you leap ..."

---------- Cue match n start remembering selected/linked strong senses which affect actions selection set a actions.

Bonus note I wrote but will share now:
0-language people SENSE, sense is the initiater! If they learned left to right/vice-versa writing/timeline bar then they see that when remember.
Emergent          https://openai.com/blog/

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jlsilicon - Robotics AI

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Re: Anybody built any Androids yet ?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2016, 02:18:33 am »
Locksuit,

I am not arguing about the learning process.

But, I do know that there is a point at which to define a system of Rules.
There is a time, when you drop the lessons -and take on Independent Decision Making.

Even in programming, once you compile a program - you don't care about the Compiler that got you there.
- Might explain why - people Rarely Remember being a baby - probably a level of temporary framework dropped from the mind as you mature (maybe as instinct).

Who says Thoughts end in Senses and Motors ?
- What about Future, Structures, Abstracts, etc ... ?
- - chinese doesn't even have a Future Tense like 'will' - literal translation is "This ___ intends to occur" (I forget precisely)

Actually, I think maybe a Mouse is Conscious in some sense.  It collects parts and food for a nest (plans ?).  It seems to look and Decide. 

My cat is indoor (afraid of the outside).  But, she new Very Quickly what a Bird is (by movement and smell).  She loved hanging at the balcony door trying to catch them. 

I had rescued baby birds that fell out of a nest once, kept them for a few days in a box feeding them, until they could fly out of the box and away.  My cat found those birds in that box - 5 minutes after that box was in the living room - should have seen Her Eyes - Never saw such Intensity in them before (or again).  I had that Box and the birds Safely Out on the balcony -after that point of course.
Took my Cat Many Years to UnLearn Birds - just to ignore them.

So - how much do cats need to learn (about birds) then ?? 

Q: What happens if the Mouse does not know the Cat - or Fails the first or second lesson about Cats ... ?

It is late for writing - and I am losing Conscious connections in my head now.
So, excuse me if my thoughts run short.

Locksuit - good job at your deep explanation.

 


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